Dropped my sparring partner, so he says

[JowGaWolf]

If one knows how to move, one step and the following attack can be done in a heartbeat, especially effective if you catch your opponent at the right time.

people get caught with it all the time.

I would call it the on-guard/caution zone. Beyond this is the safe zone where you can relax your guard, scratch your nose, take a deep breath, etc.

exactly very well said. If I'm on guard that's because I feel something can get or reach me. The problem is, I can miscalculate the ability of my opponent and assume that I'm in a safe zone when I'm really not. People do this all the time which is why coaches yes "keep your hands up." The coaches can see a perspective that the fighter cannot see. The fighter may think he's got got that "breathing room when he really doesn't.

 

[marvin8]

What you have just said is the same as I have said. Safe zone is defined if your back leg is not moving. When you are in safe zone, the moment that you kick your back leg, the moment you are no longer in safe zone.

More specifically, common definitions of safe zone are 2 arm lengths or 2 steps away from the opponent. If I can take a half step with my leading leg landing my jab without moving my back leg, you are in the fight zone, not the safe zone.

Fight Zone...

Safe Zone...

https://imgur.com/vgILU0i

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

If one knows how to move, one step and the following attack can be done in a heartbeat, especially effective if you catch your opponent at the right time. When one can reach you with this, it is NOT the safe zone. I would call it the on-guard/caution zone. Beyond this is the safe zone where you can relax your guard, scratch your nose, take a deep breath, etc.

Right, a place to kick back, drink a beer, watch a fight, then make believe in online forums. That’s my safe zone too.

 

[JowGaWolf]

More specifically, common definitions of safe zone are 2 arm lengths or 2 steps away from the opponent. If I can take a half step with my leading leg landing my jab without moving my back leg, you are in the fight zone, not the safe zone.

Fight Zone...

Safe Zone...

https://imgur.com/vgILU0i

And not one kick shown

 

[JowGaWolf]

Right, a place to kick back, drink a beer, watch a fight, then make believe in online forums. That’s my safe zone too.

ha ha ha. I can't lie, that's my save zone too but if I start snoring in a few then safe zone turns to combat zone.

 

[marvin8]

If one knows how to move, one step and the following attack can be done in a heartbeat, especially effective if you catch your opponent at the right time. When one can reach you with this, it is NOT the safe zone. I would call it the on-guard/caution zone. Beyond this is the safe zone where you can relax your guard, scratch your nose, take a deep breath, etc.

You gave a clear, concise answer. That's what Hickman says. As you approach the 2 arms length distance, you should raise your hands to the guard position and be aware. Beyond that, it's not as necessary, so you can lower your hands. You need to move with your opponent to keep the distance, which they have drills for.

 

[drop bear]

If one knows how to move, one step and the following attack can be done in a heartbeat, especially effective if you catch your opponent at the right time. When one can reach you with this, it is NOT the safe zone. I would call it the on-guard/caution zone. Beyond this is the safe zone where you can relax your guard, scratch your nose, take a deep breath, etc.

Sort of. Yes you are correct. But there are places you just cannot be unless you are actively attacking pretty much.

That 12 o clock position inside of range is lava basically.

You shouldn't even be there with your guard up ready to go. Because you have taken away any time to react.

You shouldn't be there. Move to somewhere better.

So what isn't mentioned here is MJW gets into an advantages position before he throws that non telegraphed punch. He puts his right shoulder in line with his target. So then he can fire that shot. And at speed you won't see it.

But. You will see him moving in to that position. And creating that range. And you can counter that.

 

[drop bear]

And not one kick shown

The travel time is still large. You might reach with a kick but you have to travel a longer distance to get to your target. Equals more reaction time.

If I just fired one kick at that range against anyone good I wouldn't hit them.

I rarely land kicks in space. They have to be doing something for my kicks to hit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That 12 o clock position inside of range is lava basically.

Yeah it is.

The travel time is still large. You might reach with a kick but you have to travel a longer distance to get to your target. Equals more reaction time.

I do long fist so just because it must travel a longer distance doesn't make it a disadvantage. The longer strikes often hide behind deception. The most common deception is that the opponent thinks they are safe when they really aren't. Once you think you are safe, your reaction time is slower and not faster. Long fist lands because it travels outside of the field of vision. Once the fist enters there your brain "forgets about it."

Same with kicks. If you have a good feel for the range of a front kick, then the only thing you need to do to create deception is to have the side kick start like a front kick. The deception starts at the beginning because that's the movement our brains are calculating to make a prediction of what's coming at us. If the kick looks like a front kick, then the brain says, "I'm safe from that kick" By the time the brain thinks that the kick is well on its way.

Points of deception that make us think that we are safe.
1. The beginning - movement here helps us to predict if danger is coming.
2. The end - movement here helps us decide if danger has ended.

Here's a good example of what I understand. He talks about why it works so well and why the distance isn't a big disadvantage as one may first

Much of the discussion about ranges has been around the max distance for punching, but that's not the max zone for kicking. Which is a dynamic one and not a static one. Shuffle jab has more power than regular jab because of the weight of the shuffle movement.
Slide kick is the same concept as the shuffle jab but instead of that forward movement being a punch it's a kick. Normally people use two feet to shuffle forward with punching, but when kicking you have to shuffle forward using one kick. The shuffle can be done close range or long range. The shuffle drives the power. If you have never done this kick before then the kick will be weak, and the distance doesn't help to land the kick. But the more you do it, the better you'll get with connecting the power. This is where it becomes clear that it's not about closing the distance. Closing the distance with the shuffle is easy and it's useless. It's not until you learn to connect the power that the kick becomes viable.

I've seen people who can do shuffle punches that are very weak. The reason why is because they focus on only covering distance. They do not focus on connection of power from the punch. Once they understand how to connect, they will have a tendency to shuffle with punches because of the power that comes from shuffle. I explain it this way. I'm 200 pounds. When I shuffle into a punch, I want it to be like someone threw 200 lbs at you. I don't want my strike to have the same weight that it would have if I punched without moving my feet.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I just fired one kick at that range against anyone good I wouldn't hit them.

The more your practice the better you'll get and the more you'll land. This is a skill issue for you and not an issue with the technique. I'm sure your punches were like that at one time in your life. Now you land more than

I rarely land kicks in space. They have to be doing something for my kicks to hit.

I rarely kick moving forward, we use what we find success with. based on how we fight. If you want to land more kicks "in space" then you just have to practice those types of kicks more and not just against the bag but against people.

I will say this much. You'll be doing a lot of strength building and flexibility exercises for the kick. I tried one today and I've lost so much flexibility for that kick that it's going to be like I'm starting from the beginning.

 

[marvin8]

Much of the discussion about ranges has been around the max distance for punching, but that's not the max zone for kicking. Which is a dynamic one and not a static one. Shuffle jab has more power than regular jab because of the weight of the shuffle movement.

No, it hasn't. The discussion has been around the minimum distance for both punching and kicking. Two arms lengths is the minimum safe distance for punches and kicks..

 

[JowGaWolf]

No, it hasn't. The discussion has been around the minimum distance for both punching and kicking.

The minimum distance would be the shortest range that a punch is effective. That would be 1-inch according to Bruce Lee fans. I've done punches at a "0-inch" range, where my fist is resting on the target and I'm able to execute a punch.
The minimum distance for a kick would be the shortest range that a kick is effective.

The maximum range would be the longest distance that a punch or kick can be done and be effective. Both the maximum and minimum range are defined by a person's skill and ability to do the punch at that range. I can do a zero-inch punch but not everyone can. It doesn't mean I'm more skilled at punching, it just means I'm more skilled at a zero-inch

DK uses his legs when he does his punch. I use waist, shoulder, arm for mine. The components I use are based on my stance. I don't use linear power, I use circular power for my zero inch. But regardless, "Zero inch" is my minimum punching distance.

My maximum punch distance is based on how far I can be away from someone and still punch them. That one is more difficult for me to measure. But if I had to guess it would be the shuffle punch or the step punch using long fist techniques.

 

[marvin8]

The minimum distance would be the shortest range that a punch is effective. That would be 1-inch according to Bruce Lee fans. I've done punches at a "0-inch" range, where my fist is resting on the target and I'm able to execute a punch.
The minimum distance for a kick would be the shortest range that a kick is effective.

The maximum range would be the longest distance that a punch or kick can be done and be effective. Both the maximum and minimum range are defined by a person's skill and ability to do the punch at that range. I can do a zero-inch punch but not everyone can. It doesn't mean I'm more skilled at punching, it just means I'm more skilled at a zero-inch

DK uses his legs when he does his punch. I use waist, shoulder, arm for mine. The components I use are based on my stance. I don't use linear power, I use circular power for my zero inch. But regardless, "Zero inch" is my minimum punching distance.

My maximum punch distance is based on how far I can be away from someone and still punch them. That one is more difficult for me to measure. But if I had to guess it would be the shuffle punch or the step punch using long fist techniques.

You left out the last sentence. It's about minimum safe distance.

No, it hasn't. The discussion has been around the minimum distance for both punching and kicking. Two arms lengths is the minimum safe distance for punches and kicks..

 

[JowGaWolf]

No, it hasn't. The discussion has been around the minimum distance for both punching and kicking. Two arms lengths is the minimum safe distance for punches and kicks..

" minimum distance for both punching and kicking."

"Two arms lengths is the minimum safe distance."

These are not the same thing and could be the root of why none of what I'm saying makes sense to you.

 

[marvin8]

" minimum distance for both punching and kicking."

"Two arms lengths is the minimum safe distance."

These are not the same thing and could be the root of why none of what I'm saying makes sense to you.

Again, include the last sentence. "Two arms lengths is the minimum safe distance for punches and kicks."

 

[drop bear]

The more your practice the better you'll get and the more you'll land. This is a skill issue for you and not an issue with the technique. I'm sure your punches were like that at one time in your life. Now you land more than

I rarely kick moving forward, we use what we find success with. based on how we fight. If you want to land more kicks "in space" then you just have to practice those types of kicks more and not just against the bag but against people.

I will say this much. You'll be doing a lot of strength building and flexibility exercises for the kick. I tried one today and I've lost so much flexibility for that kick that it's going to be like I'm starting from the beginning.

Yeah. Thanks buddy.

 

[marvin8]

Sort of. Yes you are correct. But there are places you just cannot be unless you are actively attacking pretty much.

That 12 o clock position inside of range is lava basically.

You shouldn't even be there with your guard up ready to go. Because you have taken away any time to react.

You shouldn't be there. Move to somewhere better.

Yes. You should not be standing 50/50 in fight range. As you enter the fight zone, you should control the space and create an advantage.

So what isn't mentioned here is MJW gets into an advantages position before he throws that non telegraphed punch. He puts his right shoulder in line with his target. So then he can fire that shot. And at speed you won't see it.

But. You will see him moving in to that position. And creating that range. And you can counter that.

MJW does not step to his target (hand not face). He's already in fight range.

In the first 2 jabs, MJW raises his hand to the guard position while moving his shoulder forward. Kimbo is able to evade his punches. On the 3rd punch, MJW does not raise his hand to the guard position nor move his shoulder forward. MJW starts his jab from a lower position without moving his shoulder forward and lands his jab.

https://imgur.com/LHOTauV

 

[JowGaWolf]

Again, include the last sentence. "Two arms lengths is the minimum safe distance for punches and kicks."

Today I will take a picture proving this wrong. He's well within my kicking range.
.

There's more distance between punching the first screenshot. In both images he's in range for my shadoless kick, side kick, front jump kick, He's also in range for a back sweep.

Your" "Two arms lengths is the minimum safe distance for punches and kicks." is not valid which is why I don't followit. I train a system that uses long fist techniques and the thing that long fist is good for is having the enemy assume that that he's safe and out of reach when he's really not. If Black trained long fist then his stance would me the distance longer than Two Arms length and neither one of us would be in a safe zone at that point.

My proof in this. If I bring my rear leg to my front foot and black does the same thing, then the true distance will be will withing punching and kicking range. Kicking range may still exist even after punching range is out fo reach.

 

[marvin8]

Today I will take a picture proving this wrong. He's well within my kicking range.
.View attachment 31694

There's more distance between punching the first screenshot. In both images he's in range for my shadoless kick, side kick, front jump kick, He's also in range for a back sweep.
View attachment 31695

That would be appreciated. However, the minimum safe distance is your kick can't reach the opponent without you moving. Once you move, the opponent can move.

Your" "Two arms lengths is the minimum safe distance for punches and kicks." is not valid which is why I don't followit. I train a system that uses long fist techniques and the thing that long fist is good for is having the enemy assume that that he's safe and out of reach when he's really not. If Black trained long fist then his stance would me the distance longer than Two Arms length and neither one of us would be in a safe zone at that point.

It's not only "my" definition. It's the generally accepted definition of safe distance. I would like to see if your long fist can reach your opponent without moving.

My proof in this. If I bring my rear leg to my front foot and black does the same thing, then the true distance will be will withing punching and kicking range. Kicking range may still exist even after punching range is out fo reach.

No, you are taking a step. If you step forward with the back leg, the opponent can step back with their lead leg, etc. The safe distance definition is punches and kicks can't reach the opponent without moving.

 

[windwalker099]

I train a system that uses long fist techniques and the thing that long fist is good for is having the enemy assume that that he's safe and out of reach when he's really not.

Tibetan White Crane was similar in that it's designed to operate in-between the long, middle, and short ranges that many martial systems specialize in, taking advantage of gaps within the spaces that others were not aware of.
The basic horse stance is different, along with stepping patterns that make it work.

Shifu Ron Dong.

Those who said they boxed had a very hard time trying to deal with the range.
After agreeing that no kicking would be allowed in some of the early testing.

With those specializing in kicking, such as TKD and others, required a little more awareness due to kicking ranges, angles, and speed, among other things.

note: TWC part of my path as young teenager, no longer practice the style.
Do have many good memories gaining a lot of experience in using it.