Does the advice people give kids being bullied to simply punch them in the face actually end it?

[Steve]

Agree regarding parents, but I know of no kid that is alone on an island in the U.S. There are a multitude of resources.

Sure. I agree. Some better than others . though i will also say that when a kid commits suicide following bukkyjng, they probably don't feel well supported by the adults in their lives.

Some were suggesting kids should learn to deal with bullying on their own.

 

[Steve]

Legally, it's likely to end up (but not start) as harassment. I don't think what we'd call "bullying" at work would ever rise to assault. But I do hear people talk about how a given manager bullies other people, far more often than I hear them calling it harassment or abuse.

This isnt true. Workplace bullying rarely approaches or progesses to harassment because it is rarely being done based on a protected base. I can be the biggest jerk to you, play favorites, embarrass you publicly, and generally make your life miserable. While that might make me a despicable human, and a terrible co-worker, it isn't harassment. I can do all of those things without even being your boss.

 

[Steve]

Wow...Steve. Where did I say such? I said kids need to learn. I never said kids are to be left alone to their own resources.

Sorry man. Early on, CB Jones said something about kids just need to learn it on the playground, and I was trying to clarify my point. Sorry for confusion.

 

[Steve]

Okay. I'm not being direct enough, I guess.

Being direct is good sometimes.

I think you're wrong.

Sure wouldn't be the first time.


Where a kid is bullied or is being a bully, leaving them to fend for themselves is at best irresponsible, and at worst, dangerous.

I agree. I have never left anybody, child or adult, to fend for themselves against a bully. Not ever. I've been dealing with and teaching people to deal with bullies all my life, even as a kid getting bullied. I've dealt with this subject, taught and counselled kids in high school (under extremely harsh circumstances for several years) some in college, in juvenile detention, in law enforcement and for many ears in dojos. Both my own dojos and other peoples.

I believe the confusion about what I said is twofold, first by my inadequacies in the written word in an online format, but specifically (probably) about this statement I made "kids are learning conflict resolution every day in school. Both personally, and by watching it amongst the other kids."
And they do learn about conflict resolution, unfortunately the kids being bullied don't usually get the benefits of any conflict resolution if nobody steps in. I always step in. Always have, always will.

I'm still doing it today as an old man. Quite well, actually, but it is more difficult. Had one Saturday that was a corker. And a royal pain in the -.

First. Thanks for the clarification. I think I better understand your point now.

Couple of quick reactions. One, I'm not as confident as you that kids are learning conflict resolution. I have worked with tens of thousands of managers and front line employees. My experience is that most are either conflict avoidant or hyper competitive and directive. This creates a yoyo affect. People who are super directive out of the gate tend to get burned pretty quickly. They overstep and are, often for the first time, told that being the boss isn't just about bossing people around and telling employees everything they're doing wrong. So the typical reaction is to retreat to avoidance, where they don't trust their own instincts and become paralyzed by indecision. That is, until something occurs that they just can't take and they fall back to their default.

The other side of this are people who are inclined to be conflict avoidant. They tend to avoid conflict until it becomes unmanageable and they are forced to take action. They generally steel themselves for conflict and then let the other person have it, dropping the proverbial hammer, often making things worse.

Think about this in terms of bullying. What are kids learning? I think they learn about assertiveness, which is the spectrum I'm describing above. They learn about when to be assertive, and find that some variation of assertiveness works well for them. What kids should also be learning is to cooperate, which is the other axis on the conflict resolution. And this is the biggest difference between when I was a kid and now. I don't know about everywhere, but where my kids went to school, they are actually taught conflict resolution skills, including not just how to temper assertiveness, but also how to be cooperative. They are also being taught related skills, such as how to demonstrate empathy, which aren't strictly speaking, conflict resolution but definitely help.

Edit: Just want to add to the point above regarding cooperativeness, that this is why sports and such are so good for a child's development. While some never move beyond the competitiveness of the activity, most develop some really important life skills. Sportsmanship has a direct correlation to conflict management, for example.

And the final reaction is to just distinguish between learning and practicing. I would say that some learning occurs on the playground, but it's much more a laboratory for practicing. In the martial arts analogy, kids learn technique and then they spar. The playground is analogous to sparring, but they're practicing what they learn. And if they don't learn it from good role models, including adults, they will practice what they see from poor role models, often including bullies.

 

[JR 137]

Agree regarding parents, but I know of no kid that is alone on an island in the U.S. There are a multitude of resources.

They’re genuinely not alone. But they certainty feel alone. In their mind, no one gets it, no one’s been through it, no one understands. For a certain period of time, kids don’t understand their parents and other adults have gone through what they’re going through or have seen what they’re seeing. That comes with maturity. How many times do kids say “you don’t know what it’s like!” to their parents and adults?

 

[Chrisinmd]

I’m quite sure there’s far more to her story than that.

The follow up to our fight was simple; when we came back in, he told us “if you run away from them today, you’ll run away from them every day. If you stand up to them, they’ll stop chasing you.” He was right.

We were taught to stand up for ourselves. Violence certainly wasn’t rewarded in our house. We were taught to defend ourselves. The rare times that we started a fight, we had consequences.

None of us grew up to be bullies, abusers, killers, nor anything else like that. We did however learn to stand up for ourselves and not be targeted by anyone who felt like having fun at our expense.

Reading how one situation in someone’s life doesn’t tell you anything close to the whole story. Teaching kids to stand up to an obvious physical threat doesn’t turn them into psychopaths or sociopaths. If it does, how come every MA student who’s taught how to defend themselves doesn’t turn into one? We didn’t take MA classes, but we were taught the same things - defend yourself when you have to, don’t start fights, don’t let people push you around, and have respect for yourself and others who deserve it. We certainly weren’t rewarded for fighting, regardless of if we were defending ourselves or not. And it all started in the home - were were punished every time we fought each other, regardless of the situation.

Being a parent is a balancing act. Teaching my daughters when they should fight back and when they shouldn’t is very difficult. Fortunately they haven’t had to fight, but they’ve seen a few fights at school. Nothing close to a major fight, but it’s hard telling them what they should do when they ask what to do if it happened to them. Unfortunately, they’re truly not going to learn the balance of when to fight back and when to walk away and/or tell someone else until they’re in that situation once or twice.

Myra Hindley had far more than “if someone hits you, you hit them back” parenting.

Sounds like your dad handled the situation as a teaching experience for you and not to simply abuse you. I agree the Myra Hindley case is far more complex then this one incident causing her to become who she was. It was one factor and we are all a product of many factors. Genetics, parenting style, environment, etc.

 

[Chrisinmd]

Psychology is not so definite as the bolded statement implies. Likely that parenting style contributed, but it takes more than that to "produce" a serial killer. Was she psychopathic (that's apparently not learned)? Did she lack support elsewhere? There are other factors that go into that assessment. The same treatment that one person thrives under will crush another person, and we're not yet clear why that is.

I agree its not as definite as the bolded statement implies. Sure not everyone or even a small percentage in this situation grow up to be serial killers. This is a very extreme case. But will this parenting style cause other lessor problems down the road for a child?

I remember talking about this case about 10 years ago with a uncle who happens to be an addition counselor. He said no this probaly wont turn you into a serial killer but it going to cause you problems later on. He was telling me that bullying is the root cause of why a lot of people become drug addicts or alcoholics.

 

[jobo]

my experience, when I was about 7, I told my dad that some boys and one in particular in my class was hitting me, my dad being a supportive parent, hit me a lot harder than the boy and told me to sort him out, so next day when he came over and punched me, I jumped on him and splattered his face. my dad gave me a six pence for that

that did stop him bulking me, however a number of other boys then wanted to fight me. so I had lots of fights and when those were won , the boys in the older class wanted to fight me, so lots more fights, then the boys from the school down the road wanted fights so more and more fights.

I one stage I was having to walk other kids home to stop them being bullied.

then again when I was about 14,15 I was very small and weak for my age, so I was on the wrong end of being bullied again, then suddenly I was big and very strong, my main tormentor punched me, so I spattered him, then the other hard boys wanted to fight me so lots more fights. one came up behind me, tapped me on the shoulder and as turned head butted me, I lost that fight

I got him when I was 21, and met him at a party and followed him outside, I was even bigger by then I didn't beat him just made him beg.

 

[Steve]

I agree its not as definite as the bolded statement implies. Sure not everyone or even a small percentage in this situation grow up to be serial killers. This is a very extreme case. But will this parenting style cause other lessor problems down the road for a child?

I remember talking about this case about 10 years ago with a uncle who happens to be an addition counselor. He said no this probaly wont turn you into a serial killer but it going to cause you problems later on. He was telling me that bullying is the root cause of why a lot of people become drug addicts or alcoholics.

THE root cause? I may be going on a limb here, but I’d say opioid addiction, self medication for mental illness, or a host of other things are more likely root causes for addiction than bullying. I’d also guess that bullying is less a root cause and more likely a symptom, similar to drug addiction or alcoholism.

 

[Chrisinmd]

THE root cause? I may be going on a limb here, but I’d say opioid addiction, self medication for mental illness, or a host of other things are more likely root causes for addiction than bullying. I’d also guess that bullying is less a root cause and more likely a symptom, similar to drug addiction or alcoholism.

I meant it is one of the possible root causes. Not the only one.

 

[Steve]

my experience, when I was about 7, I told my dad that some boys and one in particular in my class was hitting me, my dad being a supportive parent, hit me a lot harder than the boy and told me to sort him out, so next day when he came over and punched me, I jumped on him and splattered his face. my dad gave me a six pence for that

that did stop him bulking me, however a number of other boys then wanted to fight me. so I had lots of fights and when those were won , the boys in the older class wanted to fight me, so lots more fights, then the boys from the school down the road wanted fights so more and more fights.

I one stage I was having to walk other kids home to stop them being bullied.

then again when I was about 14,15 I was very small and weak for my age, so I was on the wrong end of being bullied again, then suddenly I was big and very strong, my main tormentor punched me, so I spattered him, then the other hard boys wanted to fight me so lots more fights. one came up behind me, tapped me on the shoulder and as turned head butted me, I lost that fight

I got him when I was 21, and met him at a party and followed him outside, I was even bigger by then I didn't beat him just made him beg.

Some top notch life skills demonstrated here... if you live in a post apocalyptic badlands and your daddy’s name is Mad Max.

 

[Steve]

I meant it is one of the possible root causes. Not the only one.

Maybe, though I think it’s way down the list, and probably more a symptom than a contributing factor.

 

[Tez3]

Psychology is not so definite as the bolded statement implies. Likely that parenting style contributed, but it takes more than that to "produce" a serial killer. Was she psychopathic (that's apparently not learned)? Did she lack support elsewhere? There are other factors that go into that assessment. The same treatment that one person thrives under will crush another person, and we're not yet clear why that is.

Why Myra Hindley was easy pickings for a psychopath who needed a female accomplice | political blonde

 

[Chrisinmd]

Maybe, though I think it’s way down the list, and probably more a symptom than a contributing factor.

You may be correct. I just remember my addiction counselor uncle telling me that in counseling when they got down to figuring out the root cause of the addiction it sometimes was that they felt worthless as the result of being bullied or abused as a child. So people turn to substance abuse to self medicate and numb the pain.

 

[jobo]

Some top notch life skills demonstrated here... if you live in a post apocalyptic badlands and your daddy’s name is Mad Max.

it was like that round here, causal violence was just the way it was, 60s salford was one of the toughest cities in the country and we lived in the posh bit , we had a garden and an in door toilet and no cockroaches.if you went down in to the slums it was way worse, there were bomb sites every where and poverty and delapadated two up to down houses, with 7,8,9 people living in them, living a of diet of jam ( jelly) sandwiches, when I was ten and started to roam a bit, it was a real eye opener.

. I was a happy little boy with no interesting in hurting anyone, but was surrounded by people who wanted to hurt me, I had my first fight when I was 4, I was carrying a big stick when I went out to plat by 5. and then I had a little sister to look after. saying that, when I was 9, some kid had me pinned down and was punching my lights out and my 5 yo sister smashed him over the head with a big piece of wood, so it worked both ways.

on the bright side I used to get double pay for my paper round as I was the only one who could walk round the rough estate with out being robbed

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This isnt true. Workplace bullying rarely approaches or progesses to harassment because it is rarely being done based on a protected base. I can be the biggest jerk to you, play favorites, embarrass you publicly, and generally make your life miserable. While that might make me a despicable human, and a terrible co-worker, it isn't harassment. I can do all of those things without even being your boss.

Yeah, I wasn't clear in that first sentence. I meant it's more likely to rise to harassment than assault. I'm not sure where the line is on the legal definition of harassment in the workplace, so I'm not sure how often it actually rises to that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree its not as definite as the bolded statement implies. Sure not everyone or even a small percentage in this situation grow up to be serial killers. This is a very extreme case. But will this parenting style cause other lessor problems down the road for a child?

I remember talking about this case about 10 years ago with a uncle who happens to be an addition counselor. He said no this probaly wont turn you into a serial killer but it going to cause you problems later on. He was telling me that bullying is the root cause of why a lot of people become drug addicts or alcoholics.

Even that causal statement is questionable (but appears likely, based on available evidence). That's the problem we face in psychology - there are so many variables at play, it's nearly impossible to get to a solid causal relationship. We can find two kids who seem to have had very similar backgrounds - socio-economics, parenting, schooling, etc. - and they react very differently to that same parenting. Sometimes, I think good parenting is largely figuring out which things don't affect your child badly, even though they often do others.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe, though I think it’s way down the list, and probably more a symptom than a contributing factor.

I don't understand that statement, Steve. If someone is bullied, and later develops an addiction, how is the bullying a symptom of their addiction?

 

[Steve]

I don't understand that statement, Steve. If someone is bullied, and later develops an addiction, how is the bullying a symptom of their addiction?

Sorry . I meant bullying and addiction are both likely symptoms of somethjng else.

 

[Buka]

This isnt true. Workplace bullying rarely approaches or progesses to harassment because it is rarely being done based on a protected base. I can be the biggest jerk to you, play favorites, embarrass you publicly, and generally make your life miserable. While that might make me a despicable human, and a terrible co-worker, it isn't harassment. I can do all of those things without even being your boss.

There must be a regional difference between where you are and where I grew up (Boston) or maybe you're talking about jobs that have very few employees - but if a worker "embarrass you publicly, and generally make your life miserable" they might get away with it once....maybe, but if repeated they would collecting unemployment so fast their heads would spin.

Tell you what though. Any place I've ever worked if we saw that behavior - someone embarrassing someone and making their life miserable - oh, man, we'd eat them alive. I'm not referring to good natured teasing, either. And to me, what you just described is serious bullying. Can't think of any place I've ever worked where that would be tolerated either by the administration, but especially by the workers.