Does the advice people give kids being bullied to simply punch them in the face actually end it?

[Bill Mattocks]

That is an interesting point. Come to think of it, after that one fight, which wasn't the *** kicking I thought it would be, I took a little bit of crap for getting my nose bloodied but never got challenged to a fight again.

I did also work to transform my body over the summer after that fight and came back to school 35 lbs lighter and hence, maybe less of a target, since I wasn't the fat kid any more. I also changed my attitude a bit. Instead of trying to fit in, I hung out with my friends, and when I wasn't among friends, I kept to myself.

I have no experience with this, but I am told that when men go to prison, they have to fight, or become some other man's girlfriend. They don't have to win, they have to show they have heart. This hyper-machismo environment is an exaggerated version of our society in other ways, particularly young men trying to figure out their place in the world.

In the military, I had to fight to find my place in my unit. After that I did not have to fight my barracks-mates again; nor when I moved from base to base thereafter. Once a reputation is made, it's made, for good or ill. In the Marines, my friends called me 'maddog'. I guess there's a reason for that. It wasn't because I was a great fighter, but it might have been because if I had to fight, I was f'ing nuts.

 

[Buka]

I mean that its important to let kids figure it out for themselves most time instead of adults being quick to jump in and resolve it.

Kids should be learning conflict resolution by trial and error.

You're spot on there, CB, kids are learning conflict resolution every day in school. Both personally, and by watching it amongst the other kids. It's one of the great advantages of going to school as opposed to being home schooled.

There are actually some long term advantages to having been bullied when you were young. When you are the subject of bullying you pick up cues more than someone who has never been bullied. When you see the sideways glance out of the corner of your eye, "the face", the positioning, hear the whispers, you know full well what's about to go down.

If you're the jock, or the popular kid, or tough, or whatever, you don't always recognize all the cues because your butt doesn't depend on recognizing them. Especially if the clues are subtle.

And not to go off on a side rant too much here - but I believe one of our responsibilities as Martial Arts Instructors, besides the development of character and fitness and art etc, is teaching kids (and adults) how to defend themselves if need be. How to flat out f'n fight.

I do not believe it should be a by product. I believe it a responsibility.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Social violence does have SOME rules to it. They are unwritten, but unless you want to be swarmed by people thats a consideration. (like when you see people break it up when people go to the ground)

But that obviously depends on the culture where you live at, kind of like how England was with boxing, viewing kicks as basically detestable to fight someone with. It still passes over slightly but not as extreme.


As for the question, it really depends what type of bully, i dont really know them. I dont know many people who would nearly get killed then start a physical confrontation again (without a weapon anyway). Its either ignore and then retaliate when they actually start something or go all in. I wouldn't really endorse anyone to not defend their property and person unless they are outnumbered or something.


(much to contrary belief telling doesn't work as well as some people make it out to, but that depends on school etc)

 

[Chrisinmd]

The psychology of ending the cycle of being bullied goes deeper then "just a punch". If that is your impression of the advise then either you or your source missed the point. It's not about a punch or fighting back. It's about not being a victim. There are behavioral patterns of being a victim and not being a victim. Bullies tend to gravitate to those people who exhibit victim behaviors. It's kind of a taboo view point but the victim often behaves in such a way that brings about their own victim hood. I'm not blaming the victim, as much as it might sound like that and it's not always the case. However the advise is about changing behaviors so that the bully is not having his needs met buy bullying you...he will probably find another victim but it won't be you.

Good post. Whatt are the behavioral patterns of being a victim that you are referring to? Im wondering if these behavioral patterns are really something a young person has much control over themselves. For example if they are just a very shy person or possibly suffering from a mental disorder such as depression or an anxiety disorder. Guess the type of parenting you have as well is a factor. If your a naturally very shy person from an abusive household and that probably led to some mental health issue for the child. Tough for a kid to pull themselves out of that on their own. I think a lot of kids who don't fight back and stand up for themselves have these underlying issues as to why they don't fight back. A emotionally healthy person doesn't just let someone use themselves as a punching bag in my opinion.

 

[Gweilo]

Some times the advice given to the bullied, can be detrimental, in my case I was bullied by a local lad, I would go home crying about how this local lad had made my day crap by bulling, I was about 7 years old, and it was the start of the school summer holidays I was playing Football (soccer to our American friends), this lad came over and bullied me, I went home crying, my father was home (quite rare as he was usally working or in the pub), he came from a family that travelled the uk as fare grounds people, my grandad was a boxer, that would charge a shilling, and if you beat him in a boxing match you would win a £5 note, which was more than a weeks wages back then, anyhow, as I went home crying, my dad took me into the garden, and taught me how to jab, hook cross, uppercut, slip etc, if I got it wrong I was met with a jab in the face or ribs, not really hard, but enough to hurt. I was then instructed to go outside and fight the bully, and if I failed, my dad would make the rest of my holiday hell, I went out and floored the bully, from there on there was no end of people who wanted to fight, the jab, cross hook thing worked for a while, until I met a lad who was 16, and I was 11, he put me on my **** real quick, no matter what I tried, he had my number, so I joined a local MA school, Bujinkan, I would go 3 times a week, because I had to be better, over time I got better, but I had become the bully, in 1988, myself and other lads went on our 1st foreign holiday to Spain, beers, bravado etc, lead me to punching a Spanish police officer, and let me tell you, the Spanish police don't muck around with them batons, I was bruised from the neck down to the the achilles.
We ended up in the tabloid newspapers and calped larger louts, and even though the whole truth of the events in Spain was not reported, mud sticks, I was barred from pubs I had never been to, I could not get a job locally if I had worked for free. The result was I had to move to another part of the country, and start again, even start a new MA for the right reasons, but the bulling thing is subject to every individual, yes there is a pecking order, yes there are people who prey on perceived weaker people, sometimes fighting will stop bulling, but the overall principle is control, control the situation through your own awareness, and your own actions, it's sometimes easy to get carried away, giving advice on bulling is easy, giving advice on self control but in practise it is not, that is why I continue to train in Martial arts.

 

[Steve]

You're spot on there, CB, kids are learning conflict resolution every day in school. Both personally, and by watching it amongst the other kids. It's one of the great advantages of going to school as opposed to being home schooled.

There are actually some long term advantages to having been bullied when you were young. When you are the subject of bullying you pick up cues more than someone who has never been bullied. When you see the sideways glance out of the corner of your eye, "the face", the positioning, hear the whispers, you know full well what's about to go down.

If you're the jock, or the popular kid, or tough, or whatever, you don't always recognize all the cues because your butt doesn't depend on recognizing them. Especially if the clues are subtle.

And not to go off on a side rant too much here - but I believe one of our responsibilities as Martial Arts Instructors, besides the development of character and fitness and art etc, is teaching kids (and adults) how to defend themselves if need be. How to flat out f'n fight.

I do not believe it should be a by product. I believe it a responsibility.

As with cb Jones, you guys are talking about two completely different groups of kids. Most kids do learn these things as you say. But the kids who bully and who are bullied are literally the kids who need some kind of assistance in the area. If it were as easy as you guys suggest, we would not have bullies or victims of bullies at all.

Ultimately, I agree that kids, in general, should be trusted to figure stuff out on their own. AND, that’s kind of irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Does the advice people give kids being bullied to simply punch them in the face actually end it? I know from some fights I have seen for example was the first job I worked at. I remember one fight the guy being bullied punched the guy in the face and the other guy responded and beat him pretty good punching him and bloodying him up pretty good. I don't remember people stopping screwing with you simply because he fought back and threw a punch. I don't think this myth that you simply fight back and then you earn respect and become best buddies after words is reality from what I have seen.

Another example was we had a mentally disabled guy that also worked their that people liked to screw with. He would go off verbally on them, get in their face and start screaming at them. So I know at least he stood up for himself verbally although I never personally seem him get physical. But I don't remember that ending the bullying either.

So the advice that you simply have to fight back to end bullying seems not to be the case to me. Seems like you have to win. Thoughts?

In my opinion if someone wants to kick your ****, they're not going to be nice about it. The idea that fights are some sort of gentleman's game, where two people face off and fight fair and square, seems like a bit of Hollywood mythology to me. None of my fights I have seen were like that.

Punching them in the face will probably end the bullying...if the punch makes them sit down hard, and convinces them that's the best they can do. If you miss either half of that, it can have a pretty random effect. Standing up to a bully has a predictably (but not guaranteed) positive effect, but escalating to violence has a less predictable effect.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How do bully victims (I.e., bullies who are also victims of bullies) fit into this? This is very common.

I think in a lot of cases, they are trying to fit into the social order they've been taught. They've learned there are bullies and victims, and they know being a victim sucks, so they're trying to choose to be the other.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have read a lot of good suggestions and information in this thread, very impressive. I have to agree with those who say 'it depends' and 'there is no one-size-fits-all' response.

A lot depends on the dynamics of the situation and both the bully and the victim, not to mention the circumstances.

Here are a couple examples I can relate to. In a new social setting, like a kid moving to a new town and school, you will be bullied until you fight. It's as simple as that. You're going to be attacked. You will fight back - at some point. And then the pecking order is established. The others know where you fit into that. You can be anywhere in it, from the top to the bottom, and it doesn't matter at all; once you are a known quantity.

You can get bullied, fight back, and get the stuffing beat out of you. But typically the bullying stops when you have demonstrated at what point you will fight back, and where you fit into the pecking order.

I was attacked for no apparent reason by a high school kid when I was still in junior high, much younger and smaller. I had to jump in the air to punch him in the face, and yeah, he beat me black and blue for it. He also didn't bully me again. I guess being willing to fight back was all he needed to decide to move on to other victims. I took the one 'saving face in front of his friends' beating and that was it.

But there are also examples of bullies who have a particular problem with someone, and fighting back won't fix it. The bully may have mental issues that just can't be resolved by fighting back. I've certainly seen it. Dealing with such issues can be very difficult, and solutions may work for one person and not another.

I think learning de-escalation techniques and passive resistance and all that stuff is also good. As is learning martial arts at an early age. One does what one can.

I was raised in an earlier age, and things were less well understood I think. My solution with a persistent bully was to pick up a brick and beat him in the head until I was pulled off of him. I had to do it twice. The third time he bullied me, I told him that even though he could beat me up, I would never stop beating his head in with a brick or a stick or a rock, I'd do it every time I saw his back to me for the rest of his life. He decided I was too crazy to deal with. Not saying that was the best possible solution, but I was tired of taking beatings.

I fairly agree with everything except the inevitability of bullying/fighting back. It's common, but not an absolute. Some folks go to a new school, and just fit into a group right away.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good post. Whatt are the behavioral patterns of being a victim that you are referring to? Im wondering if these behavioral patterns are really something a young person has much control over themselves. For example if they are just a very shy person or possibly suffering from a mental disorder such as depression or an anxiety disorder. Guess the type of parenting you have as well is a factor. If your a naturally very shy person from an abusive household and that probably led to some mental health issue for the child. Tough for a kid to pull themselves out of that on their own. I think a lot of kids who don't fight back and stand up for themselves have these underlying issues as to why they don't fight back. A emotionally healthy person doesn't just let someone use themselves as a punching bag in my opinion.

My experience is that the patterns can be changed, even if only in relation to bullies. I was bullied a LOT as a kid. I was small and shy, and just took it. Somewhere along the line, I stopped taking it. First it was just flailing out. After Judo, it started to include putting people on the ground, hard. Then I started being the guy who waded in to stop bullies who tag-teamed someone. By that time, I'd learned to "give off a vibe" when I found someone who seemed to want to start trouble. My best friend actually had questions about it once, after he saw me stare down an older kid at the bowling alley (he'd known me back back when I took it). The fighting back isn't the important part, though I think I had to do that to get the confidence to do what really mattered: look back at them with confidence.

 

[dvcochran]

Does the advice people give kids being bullied to simply punch them in the face actually end it? I know from some fights I have seen for example was the first job I worked at. I remember one fight the guy being bullied punched the guy in the face and the other guy responded and beat him pretty good punching him and bloodying him up pretty good. I don't remember people stopping screwing with you simply because he fought back and threw a punch. I don't think this myth that you simply fight back and then you earn respect and become best buddies after words is reality from what I have seen.

Another example was we had a mentally disabled guy that also worked their that people liked to screw with. He would go off verbally on them, get in their face and start screaming at them. So I know at least he stood up for himself verbally although I never personally seem him get physical. But I don't remember that ending the bullying either.

So the advice that you simply have to fight back to end bullying seems not to be the case to me. Seems like you have to win. Thoughts?

In my opinion if someone wants to kick your ****, they're not going to be nice about it. The idea that fights are some sort of gentleman's game, where two people face off and fight fair and square, seems like a bit of Hollywood mythology to me. None of my fights I have seen were like that.

It is a big question that is usually and best answered with time. I have read through the post and you have gotten many good answers, many with common theme.
One is to learn how to resolve conflict. It is easy to say that but I imagine it is hard to really noodle out what it means at a younger age. I would tell you to think about it from within. Find a firm and realistic image of how you see others who do not get bullied. If you think you want to be the guy who beats everyone up that is not realistic. If you want to be someone who never has conflict that is not realistic either. The people who have less conflict and are not bullied as often are many things (shy, arrogant, big, small, black, white, etc...). What they have in common is a they like themselves for the most part and do not overtly shed their label (shy, etc...)onto others to be used against them. This lessen the odds of being chosen out of the list to be picked on. Learning to be comfortable with yourself and around other people is a huge step.
The second is knowing when and most importantly how to hit if learning the non-physical skills are not enough. Day to day life for most young people is more complicated today so it is a taller order to navigate our own emotions and character, let alone someone else's. There is no video or conversation you can have with anyone who will prepare for conflict. It can come from many things; a conflict filled lifestyle or family, society or region, or learning from a quality MA or fighting system/style. Even with one or all of these there are mental and psychological factors that are impossible for anyone to predict. Some people can just really get into a persons head and play games.
So, no I do not think the odds of a one punch scenario gaining respect is very realistic. It has much to do with how you carry yourself before and after the punch. Something I always stress to students is when you absolutely know you have no other choice except to hit, you hit hard and you hit over, and over, and over until you know you either have the other person under control or you can as safely as possible run away.
It is easy to set on the sideline and say it is really not all that complicated a thing. I am old enough that I don't really remember my first fight. I am certain that things have seemed like a mountain I would never get over at times but somehow you look up and the mountain is just a hill in hindsight.

 

[Chrisinmd]

I was about 7 years old, and it was the start of the school summer holidays I was playing Football (soccer to our American friends), this lad came over and bullied me, I went home crying, my father was home (quite rare as he was usally working or in the pub), he came from a family that travelled the uk as fare grounds people, my grandad was a boxer, that would charge a shilling, and if you beat him in a boxing match you would win a £5 note, which was more than a weeks wages back then, anyhow, as I went home crying, my dad took me into the garden, and taught me how to jab, hook cross, uppercut, slip etc, if I got it wrong I was met with a jab in the face or ribs, not really hard, but enough to hurt. I was then instructed to go outside and fight the bully, and if I failed, my dad would make the rest of my holiday hell

Yeah this parenting style has produced such wonders as Serial Killer Myra Hindley:

Hindley's father had served with the Parachute Regiment and had been stationed in North Africa, Cyprus and Italy during the Second World War.[115] He had been known in the army as a "hard man" and he expected his daughter to be equally tough; he taught her how to fight, and insisted that she "stick up for herself". When Hindley was 8, a local boy approached her in the street and scratched both of her cheeks with his fingernails, drawing blood. She burst into tears and ran into her parents' house, to be met by her father, who demanded that she "Go and punch him [the boy], because if you don't I'll leather you!" Hindley found the boy and succeeded in knocking him down with a sequence of punches, as her father had taught her. As she wrote later, "at eight years old I'd scored my first victory".[116]

Malcolm MacCulloch, professor of forensic psychiatry at Cardiff University, has suggested that the fight, and the part that Hindley's father played in it, may be "key pieces of evidence" in trying to understand Hindley's role in the Moors murders:

The relationship with her father brutalised her ... She was not only used to violence in the home but rewarded for it outside. When this happens at a young age it can distort a person's reaction to such situations for life.[117]

 

[Chrisinmd]

There are actually some long term advantages to having been bullied when you were young. When you are the subject of bullying you pick up cues more than someone who has never been bullied. When you see the sideways glance out of the corner of your eye, "the face", the positioning, hear the whispers, you know full well what's about to go down.
I

Advantages to being bullied? Sure I guess there are but I think they are far outweighted by the negatives.

Teenage Bullying and Suicide: According to the World Health Organization (WHO) nearly a million people worldwide commit suicide each year. Out of that number, about 30,000 people reportedly kill themselves each year in the United States.

• Bully victims are between 2 to 9 times more likely to consider suicide than non-victims, according to studies by Yale University
• 2 Landmark studies in Britain and the United States found that at least half of suicides among young people are related to bullying
• 10 to 14 year old girls may be at even higher risk for suicide, according to the study above
• According to statistics reported by ABC News, nearly 30 percent of students are either bullies or victims of bullying, and 160,000 kids stay home from school every day because of fear of bullying

 

[dvcochran]

Advantages to being bullied? Sure I guess there are but I think they are far outweighted by the negatives.

Teenage Bullying and Suicide: According to the World Health Organization (WHO) nearly a million people worldwide commit suicide each year. Out of that number, about 30,000 people reportedly kill themselves each year in the United States.

• Bully victims are between 2 to 9 times more likely to consider suicide than non-victims, according to studies by Yale University
• 2 Landmark studies in Britain and the United States found that at least half of suicides among young people are related to bullying
• 10 to 14 year old girls may be at even higher risk for suicide, according to the study above
• According to statistics reported by ABC News, nearly 30 percent of students are either bullies or victims of bullying, and 160,000 kids stay home from school every day because of fear of bullying

It is very important that the definition used to back theses numbers is understood. I do not disagree at all but I do subscribe to the old saying, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. I would rather be a victim of true bullying than I had the label of being a statistic.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know if it helps. But I found this kind of cool.

 

[Gweilo]

Malcolm MacCulloch, professor of forensic psychiatry at Cardiff University, has suggested that the fight, and the part that Hindley's father played in it, may be "key pieces of evidence" in trying to understand Hindley's role in the Moors murders:

The relationship with her father brutalised her ... She was not only used to violence in the home but rewarded for it outside. When this happens at a young age it can distort a person's reaction to such situations for life.[117]

I think the professor is correct, it's been over 40 years since that incident, and it is the one point that I regress to as the starting point of the issues I faced an still deal with today, I don't think violence always breeds violence, but when violence is used as a coping strategy, or as a way of dealing with issues, rather than conventional problem solving skills, it becomes a way of normality. In my other post I mentioned I became the bully, not the type that singled out those who appeared weak, but used violence or the threat of, to resolve situations, I was not the person who went to the pub had one too many and started trouble, no too many beers inhibits performance, what I suppose I am trying to say is it was calculated violence strategy, but relished the fighting. On reflection I see it as a mental illness, and luckily never killed anyone.

 

[Steve]

I think in a lot of cases, they are trying to fit into the social order they've been taught. They've learned there are bullies and victims, and they know being a victim sucks, so they're trying to choose to be the other.

Right. You get it. So, how does that fit into the other blanket theory? In other words, you explained my question, but you didn’t answer it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Right. You get it. So, how does that fit into the other blanket theory? In other words, you explained my question, but you didn’t answer it.

This isn't an area I've looked at much (not since my teen years, anyway), so I'm going off the cuff here. My best understanding suggests bully-victims (the group you're talking about) need to be taught social skills, how to handle conflict without seeing it as binary like this. They probably need to learn to avoid being a victim in ways other than being the aggressor, and how to be (and, more importantly, feel) strong without having to be cruel.

I think the dynamic is probably pretty close to what we see with abusers who become abusers.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I fairly agree with everything except the inevitability of bullying/fighting back. It's common, but not an absolute. Some folks go to a new school, and just fit into a group right away.

Might have just been me, but my parents moved around a lot when I was growing up. New school, new fight. Right up to high school.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Might have just been me, but my parents moved around a lot when I was growing up. New school, new fight. Right up to high school.

I think you're just trouble, Bill.