Does revoking rank mean anything?

[Tgace]

As the "Is rank revocable?" thread seems to have run its course...

It was brought up on that thread that perhaps many of the points being made there would better fit in a “Does revocing rank mean anything” thread.

So here it is.

I say, not really. Unless the person aspires to attain an administrative position within the organization that issued him/her that rank.

 

[Tgace]

Of course if you dont believe that rank is revocable, than this thread is meaningless.

I guess my position is that a MA organization or school can say anything it wants. If it wants to say "your belt is revoked" I guess theres nothing stopping that. What does it mean though?

Would there be any legal standing to sue the person if he/she opens a school saying he/she has a BB in that art???

 

[terryl965]

Rank cannot be revolked only taken away is a piece of paper knowledge will always stay

 

[Andrew Green]

Someone is a poet

Rank can't be revoked. But an organization can refuse to recognise it... even if they gave it out.

But truthfully if you piss off an organization that bad you probably don't want to be a part of it anymore anyways...

 

[MisterMike]

Yea, they can't take the belt off your waist or the knowledge outta your head.

Just fail to recognize it I s'pose.

Been there...LOL

 

[loki09789]

Yea, they can't take the belt off your waist or the knowledge outta your head.

Just fail to recognize it I s'pose.

Been there...LOL

That brings up a good point. There usually is some kind of ceremonial/ritualistic event in relation to a rank promotion, wouldn't a revokation require a similar formallity to be official? If you never participated in such a ceremony or got notification from the org. head did you really 'get revoked?' If it didnt' happen it ain't real and you are not 'revoked.'

I would love to see someone come to my school and try to take my belts/certificates and 'strip' me of rank. I paid for the belt, I earned the certificate and It is my school/property... I beleive the legal situation is trespassing and theft? or something along those lines.

 

[MisterMike]

Yea, you should at least get a formal letter of revocation...pleeeaaasse. I would want to frame that as well...hahaha

 

[loki09789]

Yea, you should at least get a formal letter of revocation...pleeeaaasse. I would want to frame that as well...hahaha

Given the lack of clear and strong leadership in the martial arts organizations that confuse their learning institution status for 'power institution status' I would probably be just as proud of a revocation letter as a promotion letter if the thing that got me 'revoked' was a principle issue.

Whether you agree with revocation of rank or not, I think we can all agree that any action to distance/remove/punish misconduct (as long as it is delineated in advance as a standard) is moral and appropriate.

Unfortunately, most of the stuff I have heard of on these issues are more "personallity conflicts" than true moral breeches.

 

[MisterMike]

Yes, agreed.

 

[tshadowchaser]

If you run an organisation and you know the reason someone was kick out of another orgaisation do you want them in yours.
If the said person has been booted for disrespect to the school, instructor, and organisation do you want them in yours.
All arguments (meaning the reason for one being booted ) have 2 or more sides BUT if the over wellming evidence is that said person was dishonerable and really a bad represenitve of an art why do/would you want to regonise them

 

[Mark Lynn]

I don't believe you can revoke a person's rank but you can kick them out of your organization.

Hopefully kicking them out of the organization will be for the right/good reason. I've only seen it done twice.
1) An instructor decides to leave the organization, and the head of the organization then proclaimed he wasn't part of the organization anymore and reportably bad mouthed the instructor.
2) The other time the organization decided that the instructor had possibly breached some serious ethics, enough so that in order not to get dragged down into the possible leagel consequences of the actions, and not to compromise the organizations beliefs than we were told that this person was no longer in the organization and not invited to thier functions.

I think in case 1) the head of the organization tried to revoke the instructor's rank when the instructor decided to leave. In case 2) the organzation didn't revoke their rank just their association with the organization.

What about in a sense calling in the rank? If you haven't trained with an instructor for several years but say you are still teaching, can you claim to be still teaching their system. And does the organization have any control over you proclaiming you are teaching their system?

Mark

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Short Answer: No.

 

[dubljay]

Yes rank really means nothing. It is no more than a title.

"The belt doesn't mean anything but rank the person who wears it makes the difference." -- Adam Funk

What is the one thing truly taken from someone who has their rank removed/not recognized? Honor. To some this is an old fashioned concept (not referring to anyone that has posted in this thread or on this entire site). But to many, especially those who are in MA honor is a very important concept.

Being striped of one's honor is a very sobering experience. An experience that might inspire a change of attitude and actions. (if the loss of honor among once valued associates has no affect on an individual then there was no honor within themselves to begin with).

So my answer is yes. Revoking rank can mean something, but to only those who see past rank and titles.

Respectfully,
-Josh-

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[Shogun]

Most people agree that rank can be revoked, but the knowledge is still there. what if it is beaten outa ya? jk.


The founder of American Combato (J. Steiner?) will revoke rank for ANY way he see fits, and will sue you if you use his copywritten name without permission. Oops, I didnt have permission to use that. crap, pleae dont sue me, Mr. Steiner!

 

[8253]

Rank is like a dollar, once you have earned it, it is yours to do with as you please. Could be a good thing or could be a bad thing.

 

[sifu nick]

I agree that the knowledge will always be there regardless if someone "recognizes" or "certifies" it. Our school stays away from organizations so it never becomes an issue. Has this happened to any of you?

 

[loki09789]

I agree that the knowledge will always be there regardless if someone "recognizes" or "certifies" it. Our school stays away from organizations so it never becomes an issue. Has this happened to any of you?

YOu betcha it has. Just look at the "Ghosts in the machine" in the inspiring thread of "Is rank Revokable."

That is also one of the reasons that I have really pounded the point that within my training org(as in member not leader) the emphasis is on rank=skill because we only use a specific rank as a 'definition' of a set number of skills and performance standards (usually a 1-5 scale).

All the character talk is really a separate issue. Character and ethical expectations are outside of rank because IMO, you can not really 'measure' character in conjunction with rank. I mean, really can you be more "MORAL" just because you earned a black belt in an art? Not really. That personal growth is more about the time you spend with a group and how actively you try to improve yourself.

Realistically, do you hold a "White belt" to a lower class conduct level than you do anyone else? If a white belt lies during class or is verbally abusive do you cut any slack? I sure as hell don't. EVERYONE, regardless of rank, is expected to be respectful, cooperative and put forth their best effort during class.

You could be a 20 yr. green belt and, by virtue of the time spent dedicated to the conscious practice/improvement, demonstrate a better "character" than any black belt of equal time. Rank is about performance really.

If you ask someone "What is a Green Belt in your system?" Chances are that the answer/definition/explanation will be about what the person understands, can do and, possibly teach to others (but teaching, as a craft, is still a skill).

Measuring character growth with "rank" is the Pseudo-mystical/religious portion of monk training that too many modern/commercial/hobby artists try to link because THEY WANT IT TO BE there not because it really is there.

THe problem isn't the rank, but the perception of what it means.

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

"THe problem isn't the rank, but the perception of what it means."

Exactly


Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

 

[loki09789]

Rank is like a dollar, once you have earned it, it is yours to do with as you please. Could be a good thing or could be a bad thing.

I used this very analogy of "token reward" system in the Revokation thread! They can 'fire' you or take away their affiliation with you and all the rights and responsibilities that came with the affiliation, but they can't touch your earned 'pay' or 'rank.'

I think that the conflict is basically, though oversimplified, over who 'owns' rank. Those who believe that it can be revoked tend to see it as something that the powers that be can give or take away (hopefully in an ethical way) and those who say (like me) that you can't see it as something that is significant and meaningful and earned by the person who worked for it and met or exceeded the expected standards.
\
One is a political leash the other is an indicator of skill and progress.

 

[loki09789]

Yea, you should at least get a formal letter of revocation...pleeeaaasse. I would want to frame that as well...hahaha

I guess I need a frame from you for my "Hopeless" status....