Independent school's validity of rank once a member is expelled

[dancingalone]

I still consider GM SON Duk Sung my Chung Do Kwan senior, so much so that I tried to send GM Son a christmas card and/or calendar for maybe ten years. The first year he accepted, and after that he refused them and had it sent back.

Hmm, what is the official KKW stance on expelled members in this respect? Have there been any examples of people removed from membership after the KKW became organized?

 

[dancingalone]

Not so much that they would keep their seniority over students in the school as being considered senior in the art.

...

While the departed instructor has no authority within the old school, students who trained with them still value them as senior hapkidoin.

Well, I can understand that.

I suppose the subtleties of 'disassociation' depend on how organized our groups are and how integrated each regional group is with the overall hierarchy. For example, when I visit my teacher in California for lessons, I also make stops at the handful of nearby dojo run by students of his. Most of them are operated by old training partners of mine and we still have the junior/senior thing going even though we all have our own schools now. At these visits, students of all levels are encouraged to approach the visiting sensei for tuition and corrections, as we acknowledge each has his own strengths and it is beneficial to the ryu-ha for sharing to take place across our student pools.

But someone who has been expelled? Never. His karate might be very good, but he can never be a part of the family again and his lessons and his thinking are defined as suspect and unworthy of being shared or passed along. You can see why expulsion is a very serious matter from our perspective as ultimately it's not just a punishment for the transgressor. The family loses too.

 

[chrispillertkd]

That was an odd situation bluewaveschool described. Presumably if one of my seniors came to town and demanded my school, it's not like any of my students would suddenly say OK and switch. Teaching is about personal relationships. Seems like a rocky way to start off a first lesson, you know?

Exactly. The very fact that those men came to the school and tried to demand that it be handed over to them, after they were told to leave (by presumably their own instructor when he was in charge of the school) and we banned by the facility from which the school rents space indicates that they have no idea what is expected of them as seniors. They might have a higher rank than bluewaveschool but they lack any sort of comprehension of jungshin sooyang.

Anyway, can you give an example where you might think an expelled person should still keep their seniority over their juniors?

IMO, this would depend on what they're being expelled from and who is doing the expelling. If you're taking about being expelled from a school within a wider organization it may be that they should still be considered someone's senior if their rank isn't revoked. Note that for the sake of the example bluewaveschool gave being a senior is completely irrelevant since their behavior was simply ludicrous (seniority doesn't mean one has carte blanche to request that the earth stop spinning around the sun, that the tides don't recede or that you don't give up your own school).

If you're talking about being expelled from the organization that the school itself belongs to then it's possible that one's credentials (their rank, instructor certification, etc.) would be revoked as well. They would cease to be your senior as a member of the organization you both looked to to certify your standing in whatever art you practice. If the school in question doesn't belong to an organization it would be up to the instructor who expelled them as to whether or not their credentials were cancelled.

If you're talking about being kicked out of a specific style of martial arts by the singular headmaster without having been given a complete teaching license we're talking about being a complete pyrriah for that particular martial community.

None of those things would remove the physical capabilities or knowledge of the style one had, but it would imply something about the individual's character (if the one doing the expelling was in the right and not just abusing their own position as a senior, of course).

Pax,

Chris

 

[Earl Weiss]

I suppose that he believed that rank could be stripped, though would that have been in the context of an independent school?

Daniel

Well, the Chung Do Kwan was (I think) independant of any other Kwan at the time. Although as Glen pointed out he was no longer head of the CDK when he published the advertisement.

 

[harlan]

Expelling = hamon. I would respect their knowledge, but to acknowledge someone publicly as senior...one would have to weigh the possible repercussions.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I still consider GM SON Duk Sung my Chung Do Kwan senior, so much so that I tried to send GM Son a christmas card and/or calendar for maybe ten years. The first year he accepted, and after that he refused them and had it sent back.

Can you share any insight into his motivation?

 

[puunui]

Can you share any insight into his motivation?

I don't know why he returned my stuff every year. My calendar had the WTF and USTU logos on it. That might have had something to do with it. I figured that it was just his personality. So every year I would send him my thing, and every year he would send it back. I never thought about it as being negative, and in fact, after a while I looked upon my envelope returned by him as his Christmas card to me. He could have simply thrown it away unopened but he actually took the time to write refused on it and resend it. I think the reason why I stopped was he might have moved his dojang and I didn't have his new one. But yes, me sending him something and him returning it was our thing.

 

[puunui]

Well, the Chung Do Kwan was (I think) independant of any other Kwan at the time. Although as Glen pointed out he was no longer head of the CDK when he published the advertisement.

The Oh Do Kwan and Chung Do Kwan worked very closely in those days. I don't know how independent those two kwans were. In fact, Chung Do Kwan instructor certificates from the 1960's which were co-signed by GM Uhm and GM HYUN Jong Myung.

I think at the time GM Son did not recognize his removal as legitimate, and that he still was in his mind, the Chung Do Kwan Jang when he took out that newspaper ad. In the ad, GM Son speaks about a nomination certificate (which I believe he received) vs. a notice certificate (which I believe GM Uhm received) and that his argument was that GM Uhm needed a nomination certificate to be the next Kwan Jang, that his notice certificate was not enough.

That is what GM Son seems to be saying. I know that there was a removal ceremony conducted removing GM Son and inserting GM Uhm as Kwan Jang. GM Hyun wrote a report to GM LEE Won Kuk, which GM Lee still had. I have a scan on the report and it lists who was invited along with their initials next to their name signifying their presence. I do not believe that GM Son showed up. Or maybe he showed up didn't initial where his name was.

I asked GM LEE Won Kuk why he removed GM Son as Kwan Jang and he said that GM Son violated the Chung Do Kwan membership oath. GM Lee took that oath seriously, up until the day he died. GM Lee said that the membership oath is what binds us together and we are all obligated to follow that. GM Son was removed as Kwan Jang but I do not believe that he was formally kicked out of the Chung Do Kwan. I think GM Son left on his own, and I also believe that is why perhaps in his later years, GM Son tried to reconnect in a sense to the Chung Do Kwan and started calling his style Chung Do Kwan again. Just because you did something bad, doesn't mean you stop being a member of the family.

Perhaps that is why he returned my cards instead of just throwing them away unopened. It was his way, the way of a hard proud man, of sending me something without actually sending me something. Or at least that is how I choose to look at it.

It is not for the junior to decide whether or not a senior is worthy of respect.

 

[bluewaveschool]

In what way did he violate the oath?

 

[puunui]

Hmm, what is the official KKW stance on expelled members in this respect? Have there been any examples of people removed from membership after the KKW became organized?

Taekwondoin are not really members of the Kukkiwon. You can become Kukkiwon certified, attend Kukkiwon educational programs, serve on Kukkiwon boards and committees, but you cannot really become a member in that sense.

But there have been instances where people have been expelled from their WTF MNA.

Dr. Dong Ja YANG was I guess expelled from the WTF in the sense that he could not hold any official position anymore and was further demoted to Kukkiwon 8th Dan and lost his Kukkiwon promotion recommendation privileges for disrespecting Dr. Kim and GM LEE Chong Woo. He didn't lose his USTU membership though.

GM PARK Jong Soo also was demoted to Kukkiwon 8th Dan and lost his Kukkiwon promotion recommendation privileges for issuing fraudulent WTF International Master Instructor certification to people.

Master Herb Perez was banned from the USTU for a while but his Kukkiwon certification was unaffected.

Ronda Sweet was expelled from the USAT but I don't think her Kukkiwon certification was affected.

 

[puunui]

In what way did he violate the oath?

You tell me. Which part of the oath do you think was violated, and why?

 

[bluewaveschool]

We, as members, train our spirits and bodies according to the strict code.
We, as members, are united in mutual friendship.
We, as members, will comply with regulations and obey instructors.





From his newspaper ad, I can't tell. I would say from reading it that it was his replacement, and not him, that violated the oath, in going behind his back to get him removed as head of the CDK.

 

[puunui]

From his newspaper ad, I can't tell. I would say from reading it that it was his replacement, and not him, that violated the oath, in going behind his back to get him removed as head of the CDK.

ok.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I guess it depends on whether you think the rank was earned over the course of your training, then it can't be taken, or if you think that your rank was a privilege loaned to you because of the way you conducted yourself, then I guess it can be taken.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But there have been instances where people have been expelled from their WTF MNA.

I know that Angel Mattos and his coach were banned for life by the WTF. I assume that that equals expultion.

I don't know if his Kukkiwon rank was affected or if his coach even had Kukkiwon rank to begin with.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I guess it depends on whether you think the rank was earned over the course of your training, then it can't be taken, or if you think that your rank was a privilege loaned to you because of the way you conducted yourself, then I guess it can be taken.

Its kind of both in my opinion. Your grade signifies a combination of time in grade and up to what point you have gotten with regards to the curriculum.

Different organizations place different associations between rank and conduct, however, as a general rule, there is a standard that yudanja are held to regarding personal conduct. So personal conduct, depending upon the school or organization can, I suppose, play a greater or lesser part.

I know that if one's rank is attained under false pretenses in some way, the rank issued is subsequently null and void in most organizations. Though of course, there is no way to stop the person in question from hanging their ill gotten rank on the wall.

Some time back in a converasation here, it was said by several, myself included, that rank means the most in the school where you train, less within the same organization, and nothing beyond that.

In an independent school, everyone knows who is in good standing and who isn't. If someone is expelled, it makes little difference if their rank is formally stripped or not: they cannot train there any longer. If they go elsewhere, they have, as Puunui put it, plantation dollars, and will need to be evaluated based on their skills and ranked accordingly.

Daniel

 

[chrispillertkd]

From his newspaper ad, I can't tell. I would say from reading it that it was his replacement, and not him, that violated the oath, in going behind his back to get him removed as head of the CDK.

I still want to know how the Kwan Jang gets removed. That's a pretty neat trick.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I still want to know how the Kwan Jang gets removed. That's a pretty neat trick.

Pax,

Chris

His students changed the locks? Wouldn't be too hard if enough of the high dans wanted him gone. Kind of the same way that a company president can be removed; if enough of the stockholders want him or her out, he or she is going to eventually be out.

Daniel

 

[chrispillertkd]

Maybe. I don't really visualize the head of a Kwan as being like the president of a publically traded corporation, however. YMMV

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Maybe. I don't really visualize the head of a Kwan as being like the president of a publically traded corporation, however. YMMV

Pax,

Chris

I don't know. If they were elected, then those that elected them can sumarilly unelect them. There may be procedures that they have to follow in order to do so, but they can.

In the end, if you lead an organization, your postition as leader is dependent upon the confidence of those you are leading. If they decide you aren't leader anymore, then guess what? You're not leader anymore.

If it is at a school level, they may not be able to oust the school owner, but they can certainly choose to train elsewhere, leaving the owner with nothing but floor space and a website.

If it is an organization, then it depends upon how the organization is structured.

Daniel