Does karate need to evolve?

[Oily Dragon]

So when did advancement end and preservation die? About the time the founders of the major styles and/or their direct students died? Kinda seems like that.

Is karate working? It’s a martial art with most of its practitioners seriously lacking in martial skill.

This is such a complex topic, dude.

First of all, you should consider the general presence of an Imperial military on your home turf and how they might change things.

Second, whenever you say "most of", ask yourself why you think it's most. If it's personal experience, that's not it for anyone but yourself. Or if you read some article somewhere....probably not it either.

Here's what I think: most people who practice martial arts have little skill. It's not a karate thing, it's a human thing. Most people don't spend enough time at anything to get good at it, that's why kung fu is so special, and karate too.

 

[Tez3]

That’s a weird interpretation of what I have said, considering I have literally never said that.
That being said, mma isn’t a style that can be superior to any style.
That also being said, karate is a form of mma, since it’s creation up to the modern era is a result of multiple styles being mixed.

Karate a form of MMA, I think you'd better explain your thinking on that.

 

[GojuTommy]

Do you feel that preservation and adaption are opposites? Just trying to understand the framework through which you're viewing the issue..

I sort of see them as working together. You can preserve principles of an art whilst adapting and evolving how they're expressed in specifics. Karate from my view has done this continually throughout the years, even if you can't see it.

"Is karate working?" What do you actually mean by that general question?

I believe you can preserve tradition while adapting and evolving.

As a USN veteran the USN I think is a good example.
Boot camp blasts us with classes of history of our navy. We still use bosun pipes, and maintain many traditions from the age of sail, while being one of the navies that’s on the cutting edge of new relevant technologies.

I’m not trying to take anything away from anyones’ training. I am simply suggesting we add to the training.

The original purpose of kata is obsolete but there are many other reasons to train kata and I’m a huge proponent of kata training. After all on a cramped ship with no other martial artists let alone karateka present it was the only way I had available to practice and train aside from shadow boxing.

The only real change I am suggesting is including more pressure testing.
Tbh the biggest thing holding karate back imho is the ego of blackbelts. I suggest making changes and people immediately got defensive and attacked the idea change or evolution. Why because to their ego it sounds like I am saying they were taught wrong and they’re doing things wrong. I’m not saying that, but I am saying there are ways that can attract a wider variety of students and that over the last half century we’ve seen advancements in sports science, and specifically the fight sciences. There’s no reason to ignore advances and let go certain myths.

 

[GojuTommy]

Karate a form of MMA, I think you'd better explain your thinking on that.

I literally explained my way of thinking in the post are you familiar with the the history and origins of karate and martial arts on Okinawa?
Earliest forms of Te were a mixture of tegumi, and various forms of Kung fu. That alone is a mixing of martial arts.
In the early days of Te and even karate there were no high kicks, it is widely believed those were introduced by exposure to Savate, another mixing of martial arts. Some believe there was an early exposure of muay boran mixed into Te as well.

Modern karate is definitionally a mixture of martial arts.

 

[GojuTommy]

This is such a complex topic, dude.

First of all, you should consider the general presence of an Imperial military on your home turf and how they might change things.

Second, whenever you say "most of", ask yourself why you think it's most. If it's personal experience, that's not it for anyone but yourself. Or if you read some article somewhere....probably not it either.

Here's what I think: most people who practice martial arts have little skill. It's not a karate thing, it's a human thing. Most people don't spend enough time at anything to get good at it, that's why kung fu is so special, and karate too.

That sounds like a cop out.

But there’s also a big difference in what can be considered ‘being good’ at karate vs being good at boxing or Muay Thai.

A karateka that has a dozen region kata trophies and a national kata trophy, would be considered by most to be good at karate. Granted most won’t have a national level trophy. But that’s aside from the actual point I’m making, karate is a martial art.
The intent of the individual for training is largely irrelevant if they’re training in a martial art there should be one common outcome. Becoming a better fighter than when you started. Even if you only wanted a fun hobby to help you lose weight.

Join a Muay Thai gym to lose weight, after a year you will walk out better at fighting than when you walked in.
The same isn’t necessarily true for karate. I’d say it is for kyokushin, but most other styles no.

 

[Oily Dragon]

That sounds like a cop out.

But there’s also a big difference in what can be considered ‘being good’ at karate vs being good at boxing or Muay Thai.

A karateka that has a dozen region kata trophies and a national kata trophy, would be considered by most to be good at karate. Granted most won’t have a national level trophy. But that’s aside from the actual point I’m making, karate is a martial art.
The intent of the individual for training is largely irrelevant if they’re training in a martial art there should be one common outcome. Becoming a better fighter than when you started. Even if you only wanted a fun hobby to help you lose weight.

Join a Muay Thai gym to lose weight, after a year you will walk out better at fighting than when you walked in.
The same isn’t necessarily true for karate. I’d say it is for kyokushin, but most other styles no.

I totally get your "good karate" vs. "bad karate!" vibe.

Kyokushin is not the only one though. It's easy to respect it, but don't limit yourself to that. Do you know how many karate schools there are out there for any particular lineage? Like a million million. So drawing general conclusions about karate is about as helpful as with kung fu.

But I guarantee you, somewhere even in those Goju ryu schools, there's at least one heart on fire for the art. I'm sorry you haven't met enough of these types of people in your personal karate journey. Truly.

 

[wab25]

The original purpose of kata is obsolete

No it is not. The original purpose of kata, was to be step 1 of the Shu-Ha-Ri process. That purpose is to teach and study the core principles. Memorization of a kata does not equal mastery of a kata. Once you have memorized a kata to the point where you can do it without thinking... you are now ready to begin studying that kata. You cannot study the kata, if you are busy trying to remember what comes next.

A karateka that has a dozen region kata trophies and a national kata trophy, would be considered by most to be good at karate.

There are many people with all kinds of trophies for kata contests.... who think the kata is all there is. They can perform the moves beautifully... but have no idea what the core principles are that they should be studying. Karate does not have wrist locks, because I cannot find them in the kata. Karate does not have take down defense because I cannot find them in the kata.... You hear these statements from people, who are very good a performing kata, but who do not understand what Karate is or what the kata is. Its not a catalog of techniques defining the techniques of a system. Its not a combination list, defining the combinations included in a system. Kata is the physical expression of the core principles and fundamentals of a system. If you understand them, then you can use any move or technique or combination... and as long as you are adhering to the core fundamentals... you will be doing Karate.

When you learn a language, you use a grammar book. You do learn and memorize words.... but the most important thing is that you learn how the grammar works. No one expects that you will be speaking English if and only if you use only the words found in the grammar book. The expectation is that you will be able to use all the words, both currently existing and any new words that come along. You will be able to use these new words and still be speaking English, so long as you are following the rules of grammar... (or at least close enough.... ) There is also no expectation that there is only one grammar book that can teach you the English language. People who use these grammar books go on to write and speak at various different levels.... in various different styles... in various different formats.... all speaking English.

Kata is like the grammar rules. The Style of Karate is like your grammar book. The real problem with Karate, is too many Karateka confining themselves to the vocabulary found in the grammar book and mistaking the grammar book for a Karate dictionary. The bigger problem is that these people, who do not really understand what kata is and how Karate was setup, go out wanting to change Karate into something better. They want to change Karate so that it will include new techniques.... Karate already does include new techniques, it includes all techniques. They want to get rid of kata.... but then they have to find a new way to teach those core principles and fundamentals.... but since they never found those principles and fundamentals.... I am not sure their replacement would include them all. They want to pressure test Karate more.... thats a school issue.... get out more.... there are plenty of Karate schools out there that pressure test the heck out of their stuff. In short, all the things people want to add to Karate, are already there.

 

[Tez3]

I literally explained my way of thinking in the post are you familiar with the the history and origins of karate and martial arts on Okinawa?
Earliest forms of Te were a mixture of tegumi, and various forms of Kung fu. That alone is a mixing of martial arts.
In the early days of Te and even karate there were no high kicks, it is widely believed those were introduced by exposure to Savate, another mixing of martial arts. Some believe there was an early exposure of muay boran mixed into Te as well.

Modern karate is definitionally a mixture of martial arts.

The thing is you are obtuse with your posts and I do know the history of karate.
You know very well when you posted you meant MMA, the modern version as we were talking about it before. That's a different thing from karate being a mixture of martial arts.

As you were talking about naval history, you might note that the traditions you mention are taken by the USN from the Royal Navy which dates back to 1500 CE, though the English navy dates back to 897 CE.

 

[drop bear]

I totally get your "good karate" vs. "bad karate!" vibe.

Kyokushin is not the only one though. It's easy to respect it, but don't limit yourself to that. Do you know how many karate schools there are out there for any particular lineage? Like a million million. So drawing general conclusions about karate is about as helpful as with kung fu.

But I guarantee you, somewhere even in those Goju ryu schools, there's at least one heart on fire for the art. I'm sorry you haven't met enough of these types of people in your personal karate journey. Truly.

But the process is the same. People who train by fighting generally fight better.

So yes I know a shotokan club (I think) that produces killers. But they also jump in the ring a lot. They also cross train a lot. And they have good fighters training their guys.

 

[GojuTommy]

The thing is you are obtuse with your posts and I do know the history of karate.
You know very well when you posted you meant MMA, the modern version as we were talking about it before. That's a different thing from karate being a mixture of martial arts.

As you were talking about naval history, you might note that the traditions you mention are taken by the USN from the Royal Navy which dates back to 1500 CE, though the English navy dates back to 897 CE.

No MMA is not different from a mixture of martial arts. MMA is not itself a style or art. It’s a ruleset for competition that allows people to use both striking and grappling.

Karate is an art created by mixing striking and grappling techniques from multiple styles. Making it a mixed martial art.

 

[GojuTommy]

No it is not. The original purpose of kata, was to be step 1 of the Shu-Ha-Ri process. That purpose is to teach and study the core principles. Memorization of a kata does not equal mastery of a kata. Once you have memorized a kata to the point where you can do it without thinking... you are now ready to begin studying that kata. You cannot study the kata, if you are busy trying to remember what comes next.


There are many people with all kinds of trophies for kata contests.... who think the kata is all there is. They can perform the moves beautifully... but have no idea what the core principles are that they should be studying. Karate does not have wrist locks, because I cannot find them in the kata. Karate does not have take down defense because I cannot find them in the kata.... You hear these statements from people, who are very good a performing kata, but who do not understand what Karate is or what the kata is. Its not a catalog of techniques defining the techniques of a system. Its not a combination list, defining the combinations included in a system. Kata is the physical expression of the core principles and fundamentals of a system. If you understand them, then you can use any move or technique or combination... and as long as you are adhering to the core fundamentals... you will be doing Karate.

When you learn a language, you use a grammar book. You do learn and memorize words.... but the most important thing is that you learn how the grammar works. No one expects that you will be speaking English if and only if you use only the words found in the grammar book. The expectation is that you will be able to use all the words, both currently existing and any new words that come along. You will be able to use these new words and still be speaking English, so long as you are following the rules of grammar... (or at least close enough.... ) There is also no expectation that there is only one grammar book that can teach you the English language. People who use these grammar books go on to write and speak at various different levels.... in various different styles... in various different formats.... all speaking English.

Kata is like the grammar rules. The Style of Karate is like your grammar book. The real problem with Karate, is too many Karateka confining themselves to the vocabulary found in the grammar book and mistaking the grammar book for a Karate dictionary. The bigger problem is that these people, who do not really understand what kata is and how Karate was setup, go out wanting to change Karate into something better. They want to change Karate so that it will include new techniques.... Karate already does include new techniques, it includes all techniques. They want to get rid of kata.... but then they have to find a new way to teach those core principles and fundamentals.... but since they never found those principles and fundamentals.... I am not sure their replacement would include them all. They want to pressure test Karate more.... thats a school issue.... get out more.... there are plenty of Karate schools out there that pressure test the heck out of their stuff. In short, all the things people want to add to Karate, are already there.

The original purpose of kata is to record and pass down fighting techniques. That purpose was made 100% obsolete by the photograph and the printing press, let alone the smart phone the internet and social media.

 

[GojuTommy]

But the process is the same. People who train by fighting generally fight better.

So yes I know a shotokan club (I think) that produces killers. But they also jump in the ring a lot. They also cross train a lot. And they have good fighters training their guys.

Yes pressure testing is the key.
That’s the point I’ve been trying to make, and your example is the exception, not the rule.

 

[wab25]

The original purpose of kata is to record and pass down fighting techniques. That purpose was made 100% obsolete by the photograph and the printing press, let alone the smart phone the internet and social media.

No, kata is not now and never was, a dictionary of all the techniques that define an art. An art is not defined by the techniques that are practiced.

Kata is a part of the Shu-Ha-Ri method of transmission.
(Teaching and Shu Ha Ri — Kimusubi Aikido Orlando)

"Shu-ha-ri" literally means embracing the kata, diverging from the kata and discarding the kata. The pursuit of training in a classical Japanese endeavor almost always follows this educational process. This unique approach to learning has existed for centuries in Japan and has been instrumental in the survival of many older Japanese knowledge traditions. These include such diverse pursuits as martial arts, flower arranging, puppetry, theater, poetry, painting, sculpture and weaving.

This method is way older than Karate. When Karate was being developed, they used this well known method to transmit what they had learned. What they had learned, and wanted to transmit, was not merely a list of techniques. (why would their list contain the same technique over and over and over again? Did they think that they would forget the technique was on the list if they didn't repeat it enough times?)

(Teaching and Shu Ha Ri — Kimusubi Aikido Orlando)

Some practitioners of modern martial traditions dismiss kata and Shu-ha-ri as being too confining or old fashioned. In truth, this position is flawed because the purpose of kata is misinterpreted by them. Like so many arm chair experts, they have not been properly trained beyond the shoden level in kata and are commenting on a subject they simply are unqualified and therefore unable to comprehend. Like most observers outside the experience of deep study they see the kata as the art itself instead of a sophisticated teaching tool that is only a surface reflection of an arts core concepts. The kata, in their flawed interpretation "is" the art.

The kata was meant to be a tool to use to explore the art... which is much deeper and includes much more than what is actually in the kata itself. The kata was never meant to confine the art to only these techniques. When people see kata, as confining Karate to that set of techniques... it means they do not comprehend what Karate is, nor how it was meant to be transmitted.

 

[GojuTommy]

Ah yes your aikido concept that’s so super duper important to karate.

There’s no evolving understanding. Either you understand something or you don’t.

When you say there’s evolving understanding it just tells me you weren’t taught well and had to come to understand things on your own.

Your link says that this is a Japanese way of doing things. Karate via Te and katas predate japan’s interaction with either, so this whole thought process and claim is flawed from the very premise. Karate has only been Japanese for 89 years.

On top of all of that, most if not all of the older kata have origins in Chinese Kung fu forms, so trying to claim they’re designed to be used based on a Japanese point of view is even more ridiculous.

 

[GojuTommy]

I find it interesting I see no mention of shu ha ri in either Toguchi’s books, but he does explain what kata is and how to interpret kata in those books…interesting how an Okinawan student of the founder of one of the biggest modern styles doesn’t seem to follow your aikido principle.

 

[Nobody Important]

As I understand karate and it’s history, there’s been a constant fluidity and evolution of karate and what would eventually be known as karate.
However it seems to me that by and large karate has stagnated.

Sure there’s some people doing some new stuff like kudo, but even that came around in ‘81.
We’ve got karate combat, but if you look at the comments there’s supposed ‘karateka’ all over their videos saying “this isn’t karate” so it’s hard to say there’s any major evolution happening within the karate community as a whole.

I was an early subscriber to the Karate Culture YT channel, and don’t hold modern karate against those who enjoy it. However the question about the lack of ‘middle age group’ people, not the young kids and not the 40+ crowd in karate shows that karate is falling behind in some metrics.
Sure targeting children will keep dojos open and the style alive as some of those kids will be lifers themselves, but that’s a survival via life support imho.

I believe for karate to have a renaissance and have a chance to thrive again, there need to be some changes that occur. Changes that require some people to become students again to learn new ways of doing things.

I think a style that offers 3 K training side by side with honest pressure testing can exist. I think pointing fighting dojos can exist while karate combat style dojos also become more common, heck I believe one dojo can successfully do both.

The one thing I believe most of all is this idea of never changing ‘traditions’ that are largely less than a century old is going to kill karate especially in the west.

I personally don't think that the overarching culture of Karate has become stagnant, to the contrary, I think many aspects of the culture have slowly evolved over the last 100 years. Many new traditions, concepts, philosophies and styles have been created that are for better or worse, drastically different from the arts practiced and promoted by the pioneers of 100+ years ago.

 

[GojuTommy]

I personally don't think that the overarching culture of Karate has become stagnant, to the contrary, I think many aspects of the culture have slowly evolved over the last 100 years. Many new traditions, concepts, philosophies and styles have been created that are for better or worse, drastically different from the arts practiced and promoted by the pioneers of 100+ years ago.

Over the last 100 years for sure.
What about the last 40 years of that century though is the question here.

As I said it seems to me karate has fluid and evolving but it seems like around the 80s-90s karate stagnated, and I find it interesting that timing also coincided with the time frame a lot of the original students of people like Miyagi and funakoshi died.

My theory is that while those people were alive people were comfortable trying new things with their blessings as they knew the founders. Now people have a veneration for the founders and their instructors that in some cases borders on religious (this might be a cultural thing that didn’t translate well outside of Japan.)

That’s just my thoughts on that.

 

[Nobody Important]

Over the last 100 years for sure.
What about the last 40 years of that century though is the question here.

As I said it seems to me karate has fluid and evolving but it seems like around the 80s-90s karate stagnated, and I find it interesting that timing also coincided with the time frame a lot of the original students of people like Miyagi and funakoshi died.

My theory is that while those people were alive people were comfortable trying new things with their blessings as they knew the founders. Now people have a veneration for the founders and their instructors that in some cases borders on religious (this might be a cultural thing that didn’t translate well outside of Japan.)

That’s just my thoughts on that.

Meh, MMA definitely influenced a lot of arts in early 2000s, Karate being no exception.

 

[hoshin1600]

The original purpose of kata is to record and pass down fighting techniques. That purpose was made 100% obsolete by the photograph and the printing press, let alone the smart phone the internet and social media.

Not exactly wrong but not 100% correct either. Your perception on kata is one dimensional and rudimentary. The truth is much more complicated. Kata is a structured action pattern that spans multiple levels of muscle memory that is purposely repeated in order for the brain to gain and engrain embodied knowledge. Embodied knowledge repeated overtime moves from the cognitive parts of the brain to the deeper more automated structures. It can actually change the way the mind works.
Here is something to blow people's minds.. MMA has kata so does firearm practice and a million other things that people want to get good at. It's called repetition. The only reason naysayers don't see that and think it's different is because they are too busy looking at the wrong things. Koryu kata for many styles is short one technique actions. What many people see as kata, are the long forms of Chinese styles, which by strict definition wouldn't be called kata now would it. So if I practice a katana draw and cut, it is kata. If I practice my Glock 9mm draw and fire, that is kata too. If I practice a double leg take down into an arm bar,..guess what it's kata. In fact judo used to have a structured practice of throws called (drum roll please) KATA.
Now going back to the Chinese forms, there are reasons for the long sequences of strung together techniques. On a techical level, It has to do with how individual moves link together. Like how a good BJJ practioner sets up moves and is "playing chess". One move is sequenced after another until the final move is achived. The Chinese arts in many cases were able to formalize not just the individual technique but also the transitions and available options. But that's just the technical reasoning. There is a lot more to it. Chinese forms were ment to be exploratory. It was the Japanese that introduced the "kata shouldn't change" mindset. The Japanse were in pre WWII mindset of military conforming doctrine.
In my view it's not that karate hasn't evolved and needs to change to be better. I just think on the whole the practitioners just suck and are superficial. Much like how the bulk of kids now leave high school and can't read and write. ( speaking only for the USA, I have no knowledge of other countries)
As MMA and armed self defense evoles and changes the more I look at those changes and say to myself, yeah that's not really anything new, it's been around a long time. There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[GojuTommy]

Not exactly wrong but not 100% correct either. Your perception on kata is one dimensional and rudimentary. The truth is much more complicated. Kata is a structured action pattern that spans multiple levels of muscle memory that is purposely repeated in order for the brain to gain and engrain embodied knowledge. Embodied knowledge repeated overtime moves from the cognitive parts of the brain to the deeper more automated structures. It can actually change the way the mind works.
Here is something to blow people's minds.. MMA has kata so does firearm practice and a million other things that people want to get good at. It's called repetition. The only reason naysayers don't see that and think it's different is because they are too busy looking at the wrong things. Koryu kata for many styles is short one technique actions. What many people see as kata, are the long forms of Chinese styles, which by strict definition wouldn't be called kata now would it. So if I practice a katana draw and cut, it is kata. If I practice my Glock 9mm draw and fire, that is kata too. If I practice a double leg take down into an arm bar,..guess what it's kata. In fact judo used to have a structured practice of throws called (drum roll please) KATA.
Now going back to the Chinese forms, there are reasons for the long sequences of strung together techniques. On a techical level, It has to do with how individual moves link together. Like how a good BJJ practioner sets up moves and is "playing chess". One move is sequenced after another until the final move is achived. The Chinese arts in many cases were able to formalize not just the individual technique but also the transitions and available options. But that's just the technical reasoning. There is a lot more to it. Chinese forms were ment to be exploratory. It was the Japanese that introduced the "kata shouldn't change" mindset. The Japanse were in pre WWII mindset of military conforming doctrine.
In my view it's not that karate hasn't evolved and needs to change to be better. I just think on the whole the practitioners just suck and are superficial. Much like how the bulk of kids now leave high school and can't read and write. ( speaking only for the USA, I have no knowledge of other countries)
As MMA and armed self defense evoles and changes the more I look at those changes and say to myself, yeah that's not really anything new, it's been around a long time. There is nothing new under the sun.

It’s primary purpose is that no questions about it.
Muscle memory and everything else has other ways of being achieved that are not kata. Transmission of techniques has few other realistic options before the printing press and photography.

MMA isn’t a style or art, but the main styles within MMA do not have kata.
Shadow boxing is not kata. Kihon isn’t kata.