Does karate need to evolve?

[isshinryuronin]

I got a "LIKE" from GojuTommy............so immediately re-read my post.

It still seems good. I must bring out the best in him.

Welcome to the light, GT.

 

[GojuTommy]

I got a "LIKE" from GojuTommy............so immediately re-read my post.

It still seems good. I must bring out the best in him.

Welcome to the light, GT.

A broken clock is still right twice a day

 

[Tez3]

I mean I don’t have time for stupid questions.
I always find people like you funny. I have stated my opinions, you then go ahead and start saying I made claims I did not.

God forbid someone question the status quo.

And as for not answering my training background, pretty sure I’ve already mentioned it in previous posts, but regardless of that, I could say anything you want, and your opinion of me based on our online interactions would determine if you believe me. You can’t disprove whatever I say, and I’m comfortable enough in my own knowledge and experience that I have absolutely no desire to prove my experience and training level to a stranger online hoping to get some validation.

Ah so you are taking it personally that I'm questioning you about your opinion, I see.
Your fallback position is that I'm saying your're making claims, an odd phrase for me asking questions but there you go.

You aren't questioning the status quo though are you, what you are doing is voicing your opinion, fine but you will be challenged on that opinion especially when you decide that your opinion is the only correct fact. You decided that Muay Thai is not looked on as a traditional martial art when very clearly it is. That's just one thing out of quite a few. You decided that millions of karateka are so stuck in tradition the style is moribund. If you had risen to a high black belt grade in an established karate style over decades you would be entitled to voice your opinion and be listened to.
As it is, we are quite entitled, especially on here, to question and if necessary debunk your ideas. Of course you find me funny, trying to belittle a critic is SOP, don't like it, don't post. Simples.

 

[drop bear]

One thing I think BJJ does better than most arts is the move away from top down innovation
To a more collaborative method.

So instead of one black belt trying to pass on everything that is their style you kind of have everyone having an imput. And everyone doing the pressure testing. And this significantly raises the gene pool of talent.

Which creates a lot more depth of knowledge.

So if karate wanted to evolve that is the direction I would say to go.

 

[Tez3]

One thing I think BJJ does better than most arts is the move away from top down innovation
To a more collaborative method.

So instead of one black belt trying to pass on everything that is their style you kind of have everyone having an imput. And everyone doing the pressure testing. And this significantly raises the gene pool of talent.

Which creates a lot more depth of knowledge.

So if karate wanted to evolve that is the direction I would say to go.

Many karate places do this already and have for a long time, few places have just one instructor taking the class. We've always had classes where brown belts also teach (it's a three stage belt in Wado) as well as purple belts. In sparring everyone gets to soar with everyone but as you know GoJuTommy doesn't approve of that. To only have like partnering like would cut down learning in any martial art. Partnering more experienced with beginners has always been a thing in karate, it's understood teaching is a very good way of cementing your own knowledge.
The media when talking about karate always show a class lined up facing one blackbelt shouting instructions when that is a very small part of karate, for us it's a quick warm up then on to individual or partner work. Line work is useful though for teaching a new kata just to get the basic moves learnt before finessing individually afterwards.

 

[Tez3]

You'd think a flashing lights warning would have been appropriate for those with light sensitive epilepsy.

 

[GojuTommy]

Ah so you are taking it personally that I'm questioning you about your opinion, I see.
Your fallback position is that I'm saying your're making claims, an odd phrase for me asking questions but there you go.

You aren't questioning the status quo though are you, what you are doing is voicing your opinion, fine but you will be challenged on that opinion especially when you decide that your opinion is the only correct fact. You decided that Muay Thai is not looked on as a traditional martial art when very clearly it is. That's just one thing out of quite a few. You decided that millions of karateka are so stuck in tradition the style is moribund. If you had risen to a high black belt grade in an established karate style over decades you would be entitled to voice your opinion and be listened to.
As it is, we are quite entitled, especially on here, to question and if necessary debunk your ideas. Of course you find me funny, trying to belittle a critic is SOP, don't like it, don't post. Simples.

Not taking it personally. Literally 3rd grade reading comprehension could tell you what I’ve studied, and as I’ve said how long and to what rank, may or may not be believed, based on preconceived notions, and I simply don’t care what you believe either way.
If you want to think i only know ‘youtube fu’ that’s fine by me.

 

[wab25]

Personally I blame funakoshi for most of the short comings I find in modern karate

Can you be specific here? Note that what Funakoshi taught and what you find taught these days in a Shotokan school can be very different.

Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate

I've written plenty about Lyoto Machida 's karate over the past two years, but I thought we would try something different...

bleacherreport.com

Also, what is your understanding of Shu-Ha-Ri? In your changes to Karate, would you be removing Shu-Ha-Ri from Karate? If you remove Shu-Ha-Ri... you probably just have KB now. It would have been a lot easier to just train KB.

 

[GojuTommy]

Can you be specific here? Note that what Funakoshi taught and what you find taught these days in a Shotokan school can be very different.

Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate

I've written plenty about Lyoto Machida 's karate over the past two years, but I thought we would try something different...

bleacherreport.com

Also, what is your understanding of Shu-Ha-Ri? In your changes to Karate, would you be removing Shu-Ha-Ri from Karate? If you remove Shu-Ha-Ri... you probably just have KB now. It would have been a lot easier to just train KB.

Sure.
The mainlandification of karate I don’t like. Even Japanese goju I have a problem with. The pointless lowering of stances, the addition of high kicks, the lack of pressure training, the removal of karate’s grappling, etc.

It just seems funakoshi was more concerned about getting rich and/or famous and was a much better marketer than karateka.

 

[Tez3]

Not taking it personally. Literally 3rd grade reading comprehension could tell you what I’ve studied, and as I’ve said how long and to what rank, may or may not be believed, based on preconceived notions, and I simply don’t care what you believe either way.
If you want to think i only know ‘youtube fu’ that’s fine by me.

You may well have written previous posts which if you check I haven't been here to read. I'm not going to spend time going through your posts. Your current posts I've been involved with indicate a lack of understanding of karate.

For someone not it taking it personally you are getting quite emotional about it.

 

[GojuTommy]

You may well have written previous posts which if you check I haven't been here to read. I'm not going to spend time going through your posts. Your current posts I've been involved with indicate a lack of understanding of karate.

For someone not it taking it personally you are getting quite emotional about it.

I don’t think you know what it means to get emotional about something but have fun trolling

 

[wab25]

Sure.
The mainlandification of karate I don’t like. Even Japanese goju I have a problem with. The pointless lowering of stances, the addition of high kicks, the lack of pressure training, the removal of karate’s grappling, etc.

It just seems funakoshi was more concerned about getting rich and/or famous and was a much better marketer than karateka.

And yet, if you read the books that Funakoshi wrote, you will find him explaining the grappling and throwing, and stating how they should be kept. Not to mention, his students taught the grappling and throwing aspects of the kata.

What is your understanding of Shu-Ha-Ri? (it is quit fundamental to the study of Karate)

 

[GojuTommy]

And yet, if you read the books that Funakoshi wrote, you will find him explaining the grappling and throwing, and stating how they should be kept. Not to mention, his students taught the grappling and throwing aspects of the kata.

What is your understanding of Shu-Ha-Ri? (it is quit fundamental to the study of Karate)

He can explain it in books all he wants, he removed it from his curriculum to please the Japanese who for whatever reason and likely multiple reasons didn’t want it.

Had to look up that term since I don’t speak Japanese fluently. It seems the term originates in aikido so I’m not sure how it’s fundamental to karate. But honestly it seems like a bunch of crap to me. Either you understand techniques or you don’t. Weird how people who come from styles that regularly pressure test don’t seem to have a concept like this…because they understand their techniques from the beginning as a result of pressure testing.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Had to look up that term since I don’t speak Japanese fluently. It seems the term originates in aikido so I’m not sure how it’s fundamental to karate. But honestly it seems like a bunch of crap to me. Either you understand techniques or you don’t. Weird how people who come from styles that regularly pressure test don’t seem to have a concept like this…because they understand their techniques from the beginning as a result of pressure testing.

Noh.

And pressure testing arts definitely contain the same concept as shuhari. Especially so.

I know practically zero Japanese too. But the I Ching, definitely.

 

[Tez3]

I don’t think you know what it means to get emotional about something but have fun trolling

I can assure you I'm not trolling at all but your comments are interesting. People always accuse others of trolling when they have nothing.
You seem resistant to the idea that you perhaps don't know as much as you think you do. Most of us in martial arts know we don't know everything, that's why we are eternal beginners. You propose changing karate to something you think it should be, forgetting there's a lot of karateka on here, who don't see the problems you do. There's no doubt changes could/should be made but are they ones you think they are?
I did some checking, in the UK boxing is the most popular with 775,000 registered, Judo has 47,000, Karate 65,000, MMA 5,000, TAGB TKD 26,000. You'll think all the numbers small but we are a small country. Those are good numbers. Karate isn't losing students, in fact it's the fastest growing sport for females here.
We must be doing something right.

However all sports and leisure activities face a difficult future here and there's nothing we, as clubs and instructors can do. Finances here are so stretched and look to become more so, the cost of food has rocketed, gas and electricity have tripled in price and still rising, people are using food banks. Sports, hobbies, leisure activities are being dumped as no one will be able to afford them, we can't afford to rent buildings or if owned can't afford utilities. Mortgages went up by £500 a month. That's the problem, not whether people are stuck in tradition.
The problem is we can't even afford to live let alone train martial arts.

 

[GojuTommy]

I can assure you I'm not trolling at all but your comments are interesting. People always accuse others of trolling when they have nothing.
You seem resistant to the idea that you perhaps don't know as much as you think you do. Most of us in martial arts know we don't know everything, that's why we are eternal beginners. You propose changing karate to something you think it should be, forgetting there's a lot of karateka on here, who don't see the problems you do. There's no doubt changes could/should be made but are they ones you think they are?
I did some checking, in the UK boxing is the most popular with 775,000 registered, Judo has 47,000, Karate 65,000, MMA 5,000, TAGB TKD 26,000. You'll think all the numbers small but we are a small country. Those are good numbers. Karate isn't losing students, in fact it's the fastest growing sport for females here.
We must be doing something right.

However all sports and leisure activities face a difficult future here and there's nothing we, as clubs and instructors can do. Finances here are so stretched and look to become more so, the cost of food has rocketed, gas and electricity have tripled in price and still rising, people are using food banks. Sports, hobbies, leisure activities are being dumped as no one will be able to afford them, we can't afford to rent buildings or if owned can't afford utilities. Mortgages went up by £500 a month. That's the problem, not whether people are stuck in tradition.
The problem is we can't even afford to live let alone train martial arts.

I mean your misinterpretations of what I’ve said mean you’re either trolling or getting butthurt i suggest change.

Who are those new people? If you’re content teaching children and senior citizens sure then I guess no reason for things to change for you.

Also 65k is a tiny number. It’s roughly 2/3 of my local college football stadium…

 

[wab25]

He can explain it in books all he wants, he removed it from his curriculum to please the Japanese who for whatever reason and likely multiple reasons didn’t want it.

Except that his students were taught the grappling and throwing portions.... You can say he removed it all you want, but his students clearly were taught it and in his writings, he clearly intended everyone to understand that part of the training.

He did remove parts when he was developing a physical education system for elementary schools... but then that was intended as exercise for elementary school kids... not as a martial art. When teaching Karate, the Martial Art, he clearly kept the grappling and throwing aspects. It was other folks, later on that removed and "lost" different parts of the art. However, there are still many who kept those parts as well.

I’m not sure how it’s fundamental to karate

Shu-Ha-Ri is a traditional way to transmit information and was used for lots of things, most recently Aikido. Its hallmark, it to teach the student Kata as step one. This is where Karate gets its notions of Kata. Karate uses the Shu-Ha-Ri method to transmit the knowledge and skill. Too many people, do not understand this, and think that Kata, by itself, is the method of transmission.... and that by doing Kata alone, someday the light will flash on. This leads to people memorizing a set of moves, and thinking that they have "mastered" a Kata. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Step one is the memorization and practice of the Kata, as an exact copy. This is to teach new skills, but more importantly, to teach the core ideas, and principles. Simply memorizing is not enough... you need to gain a deep understanding of what you are doing, why you are doing it and what effect it has.

Step two is to deviate from the Kata. This needs the involvement of the teacher. The idea here is that if the student truly understands the principles in the Kata that he learned, his deviations will express the same principles, through a different technique. Each student develops his own deviations. Further, what is a good deviation for one student, is not necessarily a good deviation for another. The idea is that first you learn the principles, and then you learn how to apply those principles in different ways.

Step three is to discard or abandon the Kata. You are free to express the principles in anyway that you wish. Further, the principles have become so ingrained in you, that you don't have to sit down and think about the moves and the principles... you can just respond, with the principles and the moves / techniques will be there.

The thing that makes Karate special is that it is not a set of x number of moves, the mastery of which will allow you to kick butt. Karate has x number of principles, the mastery of these principles will allow the Karateka to have an infinite number of moves and techniques to employ while kicking butt. These principles include all the techniques that the human body is capable of doing, and contains a framework, where these moves can be made effective quite quickly.

If your understanding of Karate is to memorize and copy these kata exactly, and then spar in some certain way... then yes, your Karate needs to change.

Memorizing a dictionary is not a great way to learn a language. When learning a language, you do memorize some words. But, then you learn to use those words in ways that teach you the principles and core fundamentals of the language. They idea is to provide a framework for you to be able to learn and use new words effectively, without much effort, because you understand how the language works. In fact, if done right, the focus is on communicating effectively, not on expansion of vocabulary. You are then free to use any words at all, in order to communicate. (your vocabulary will grow as a side effect)

Taking Shu-Ha-Ri out of Karate, whether you understand Shu-Ha-Ri or not, would reduce Karate into line dancing + sparring... its not Karate anymore.

 

[GojuTommy]

Except that his students were taught the grappling and throwing portions.... You can say he removed it all you want, but his students clearly were taught it and in his writings, he clearly intended everyone to understand that part of the training.

He did remove parts when he was developing a physical education system for elementary schools... but then that was intended as exercise for elementary school kids... not as a martial art. When teaching Karate, the Martial Art, he clearly kept the grappling and throwing aspects. It was other folks, later on that removed and "lost" different parts of the art. However, there are still many who kept those parts as well.


Shu-Ha-Ri is a traditional way to transmit information and was used for lots of things, most recently Aikido. Its hallmark, it to teach the student Kata as step one. This is where Karate gets its notions of Kata. Karate uses the Shu-Ha-Ri method to transmit the knowledge and skill. Too many people, do not understand this, and think that Kata, by itself, is the method of transmission.... and that by doing Kata alone, someday the light will flash on. This leads to people memorizing a set of moves, and thinking that they have "mastered" a Kata. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Step one is the memorization and practice of the Kata, as an exact copy. This is to teach new skills, but more importantly, to teach the core ideas, and principles. Simply memorizing is not enough... you need to gain a deep understanding of what you are doing, why you are doing it and what effect it has.

Step two is to deviate from the Kata. This needs the involvement of the teacher. The idea here is that if the student truly understands the principles in the Kata that he learned, his deviations will express the same principles, through a different technique. Each student develops his own deviations. Further, what is a good deviation for one student, is not necessarily a good deviation for another. The idea is that first you learn the principles, and then you learn how to apply those principles in different ways.

Step three is to discard or abandon the Kata. You are free to express the principles in anyway that you wish. Further, the principles have become so ingrained in you, that you don't have to sit down and think about the moves and the principles... you can just respond, with the principles and the moves / techniques will be there.

The thing that makes Karate special is that it is not a set of x number of moves, the mastery of which will allow you to kick butt. Karate has x number of principles, the mastery of these principles will allow the Karateka to have an infinite number of moves and techniques to employ while kicking butt. These principles include all the techniques that the human body is capable of doing, and contains a framework, where these moves can be made effective quite quickly.

If your understanding of Karate is to memorize and copy these kata exactly, and then spar in some certain way... then yes, your Karate needs to change.

Memorizing a dictionary is not a great way to learn a language. When learning a language, you do memorize some words. But, then you learn to use those words in ways that teach you the principles and core fundamentals of the language. They idea is to provide a framework for you to be able to learn and use new words effectively, without much effort, because you understand how the language works. In fact, if done right, the focus is on communicating effectively, not on expansion of vocabulary. You are then free to use any words at all, in order to communicate. (your vocabulary will grow as a side effect)

Taking Shu-Ha-Ri out of Karate, whether you understand Shu-Ha-Ri or not, would reduce Karate into line dancing + sparring... its not Karate anymore.

Which students taught grappling? Those from before he moved to Japan or those after?

 

[Tez3]

I mean your misinterpretations of what I’ve said mean you’re either trolling or getting butthurt i suggest change.

Who are those new people? If you’re content teaching children and senior citizens sure then I guess no reason for things to change for you.

So, You disparage my posts because you don't understand your experience is in the US not in Europe or the UK. You assume problem is with karate not karate in your country. I've given you my perspective because it's outside the US but you don't get it. I've said before you generalise far too much, karate is a generic term, not all karate is the same. This is an international site you will get posts from people outside the US.
Your last comment is ridiculous you actually don't seem to realise that martial arts for children is not the thing here it is in the US. We don't have the numbers of children you do in martial arts, we have healthy numbers but it's also not marketed the same we, we don't have the family training together thing either. Martial arts ranks 6th here for children participating. Football and swimming are by far the most popular sports, athletics, running, cycling and netball come before martial arts, we also have rugby and cricket. Football is enormous here, most children will play at schools and clubs. The big professional clubs sent scouts to kid's games and sign them up as young as 7 For their academies. For oldies martial arts other than Tai Chi rank very low, bowls both lawn and carpet rank highest, darts, horseshoe, and out her pub games rank higher.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Taking Shu-Ha-Ri out of Karate, whether you understand Shu-Ha-Ri or not, would reduce Karate into line dancing + sparring... its not Karate anymore.

Line dancing is a great counterexample. Everyone always doing the same thing...no ri(li).

Swing dancing, on the other hand is a great example of the shuhari process. You learn the moves, then you learn with a partner, and eventually you're all over the place dancing randomly. I personally hate it but you know, everyone has their own style of dancing. I'm more of a twerker, I like getting low.