Does karate need to evolve?

[isshinryuronin]

Your current posts I've been involved with indicate a lack of understanding of karate.

GojuTommy gives me the same impression. Cherry-picking facts while missing the context, over-generalized answers, limited grasp of the big picture, not giving value to those here with FAR more experience in time and knowledge in the art...

It's been fun as addressing his comments gave rise to the posting some good information by others, which seems to be lost on him. But it's getting tiresome and time, for me at least, to let him go back to his sandbox so I can play with the big kids.

 

[Tez3]

GojuTommy gives me the same impression. Cherry-picking facts while missing the context, over-generalized answers, limited grasp of the big picture, not giving value to those here with FAR more experience in time and knowledge in the art...

It's been fun as addressing his comments gave rise to the posting some good information by others, which seems to be lost on him. But it's getting tiresome and time, for me at least, to let him go back to his sandbox so I can play with the big kids.

I agree. I'm off to see if we've changed Prime Ministers again, the last one lasted less time than a lettuce. I have to laugh, I'll cry if I don't.

 

[Oily Dragon]

GojuTommy gives me the same impression. Cherry-picking facts while missing the context, over-generalized answers, limited grasp of the big picture, not giving value to those here with FAR more experience in time and knowledge in the art...

You left out the droolingly aggressive posting style.

I mean, everyone gets a little angry and frustrated with other people online. The best medicine for that is to just be honest. It's OK to talk about how you feel!

But some people online, man. You can tell they have rough days in surplus. Come home (or worse, still at work) and pick fights on the web. I feel bad for these people, so I try to be nice no matter what.

Doesn't always work but it's a much better strat than tit for tat.

 

[GojuTommy]

GojuTommy gives me the same impression. Cherry-picking facts while missing the context, over-generalized answers, limited grasp of the big picture, not giving value to those here with FAR more experience in time and knowledge in the art...

It's been fun as addressing his comments gave rise to the posting some good information by others, which seems to be lost on him. But it's getting tiresome and time, for me at least, to let him go back to his sandbox so I can play with the big kids.

Lol thanks for making my point for me.

 

[_Simon_]

Except that his students were taught the grappling and throwing portions.... You can say he removed it all you want, but his students clearly were taught it and in his writings, he clearly intended everyone to understand that part of the training.

He did remove parts when he was developing a physical education system for elementary schools... but then that was intended as exercise for elementary school kids... not as a martial art. When teaching Karate, the Martial Art, he clearly kept the grappling and throwing aspects. It was other folks, later on that removed and "lost" different parts of the art. However, there are still many who kept those parts as well.


Shu-Ha-Ri is a traditional way to transmit information and was used for lots of things, most recently Aikido. Its hallmark, it to teach the student Kata as step one. This is where Karate gets its notions of Kata. Karate uses the Shu-Ha-Ri method to transmit the knowledge and skill. Too many people, do not understand this, and think that Kata, by itself, is the method of transmission.... and that by doing Kata alone, someday the light will flash on. This leads to people memorizing a set of moves, and thinking that they have "mastered" a Kata. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Step one is the memorization and practice of the Kata, as an exact copy. This is to teach new skills, but more importantly, to teach the core ideas, and principles. Simply memorizing is not enough... you need to gain a deep understanding of what you are doing, why you are doing it and what effect it has.

Step two is to deviate from the Kata. This needs the involvement of the teacher. The idea here is that if the student truly understands the principles in the Kata that he learned, his deviations will express the same principles, through a different technique. Each student develops his own deviations. Further, what is a good deviation for one student, is not necessarily a good deviation for another. The idea is that first you learn the principles, and then you learn how to apply those principles in different ways.

Step three is to discard or abandon the Kata. You are free to express the principles in anyway that you wish. Further, the principles have become so ingrained in you, that you don't have to sit down and think about the moves and the principles... you can just respond, with the principles and the moves / techniques will be there.

The thing that makes Karate special is that it is not a set of x number of moves, the mastery of which will allow you to kick butt. Karate has x number of principles, the mastery of these principles will allow the Karateka to have an infinite number of moves and techniques to employ while kicking butt. These principles include all the techniques that the human body is capable of doing, and contains a framework, where these moves can be made effective quite quickly.

If your understanding of Karate is to memorize and copy these kata exactly, and then spar in some certain way... then yes, your Karate needs to change.

Memorizing a dictionary is not a great way to learn a language. When learning a language, you do memorize some words. But, then you learn to use those words in ways that teach you the principles and core fundamentals of the language. They idea is to provide a framework for you to be able to learn and use new words effectively, without much effort, because you understand how the language works. In fact, if done right, the focus is on communicating effectively, not on expansion of vocabulary. You are then free to use any words at all, in order to communicate. (your vocabulary will grow as a side effect)

Taking Shu-Ha-Ri out of Karate, whether you understand Shu-Ha-Ri or not, would reduce Karate into line dancing + sparring... its not Karate anymore.

Very well said!

 

[Hyoho]

As I understand karate and it’s history, there’s been a constant fluidity and evolution of karate and what would eventually be known as karate.
However it seems to me that by and large karate has stagnated.

Sure there’s some people doing some new stuff like kudo, but even that came around in ‘81.
We’ve got karate combat, but if you look at the comments there’s supposed ‘karateka’ all over their videos saying “this isn’t karate” so it’s hard to say there’s any major evolution happening within the karate community as a whole.

I was an early subscriber to the Karate Culture YT channel, and don’t hold modern karate against those who enjoy it. However the question about the lack of ‘middle age group’ people, not the young kids and not the 40+ crowd in karate shows that karate is falling behind in some metrics.
Sure targeting children will keep dojos open and the style alive as some of those kids will be lifers themselves, but that’s a survival via life support imho.

I believe for karate to have a renaissance and have a chance to thrive again, there need to be some changes that occur. Changes that require some people to become students again to learn new ways of doing things.

I think a style that offers 3 K training side by side with honest pressure testing can exist. I think pointing fighting dojos can exist while karate combat style dojos also become more common, heck I believe one dojo can successfully do both.

The one thing I believe most of all is this idea of never changing ‘traditions’ that are largely less than a century old is going to kill karate especially in the west.

I guess that depends on your reasons for practicing. The Japanese way is to try and preserve a tradition. This applies to most arts as it's based on an educational/cultural pursuit. Why is it there is always somebody that wants to "change things"?

 

[hoshin1600]

So many posts on something so simple.
If you don't like karate, then don't do it. If you think there something better out there, go do that. If YOU want to change your karate, then go for it. Do what ever makes you happy. However if you want to change others because they don't agree with you,, well that's being a narcissistic a hole. People can train however they want. There is nothing stopping you and if it's good and others like it, what you do will spread and grow.
I like what I do. Everyone here likes what they do. Trying to convince people otherwise is a foolish undertaking. We're not ignorant and stupid. We know what other people do, its just not what we choose to do.

 

[GojuTommy]

I guess that depends on your reasons for practicing. The Japanese way is to try and preserve a tradition. This applies to most arts as it's based on an educational/cultural pursuit. Why is it there is always somebody that wants to "change things"?

When did it become the Japanese way to preserve tradition? Things were changing all the time in Japan with regard to karate, until very recently.

 

[GojuTommy]

So many posts on something so simple.
If you don't like karate, then don't do it. If you think there something better out there, go do that. If YOU want to change your karate, then go for it. Do what ever makes you happy. However if you want to change others because they don't agree with you,, well that's being a narcissistic a hole. People can train however they want. There is nothing stopping you and if it's good and others like it, what you do will spread and grow.
I like what I do. Everyone here likes what they do. Trying to convince people otherwise is a foolish undertaking. We're not ignorant and stupid. We know what other people do, its just not what we choose to do.

The founders by and large would have a hard time recognizing modern karate as what they were training. Especially that Olympic embarrassment.

 

[drop bear]

I guess that depends on your reasons for practicing. The Japanese way is to try and preserve a tradition. This applies to most arts as it's based on an educational/cultural pursuit. Why is it there is always somebody that wants to "change things"?

Functionality.

 

[Tez3]

Functionality.

If it's not broke don't fix it. If you're the only one who doesn't like it, then change styles, why be so bothered about what other people do?

 

[drop bear]

If it's not broke don't fix it. If you're the only one who doesn't like it, then change styles, why be so bothered about what other people do?

How do you think you got karate in the first place?

 

[_Simon_]

When did it become the Japanese way to preserve tradition? Things were changing all the time in Japan with regard to karate, until very recently.

I think there's a (big) difference between "preserving" tradition, and learning from what the tradition has to offer.

 

[skribs]

I think there's a (big) difference between "preserving" tradition, and learning from what the tradition has to offer.

This is the big thing for me. A lot of people assume that if it won't help you in an MMA fight, it's completely 100% worthless. I don't think that's the case.

It's also taken in the other direction. When I claim that there is no direct practical application of the Taekwondo forms, people think I'm calling the forms useless and get really defensive.

Often, that thing that is supposedly 100% worthless takes a different perspective that at the very least could give you a new insight.

 

[Tez3]

This is the big thing for me. A lot of people assume that if it won't help you in an MMA fight, it's completely 100% worthless. I don't think that's the case.

It's also taken in the other direction. When I claim that there is no direct practical application of the Taekwondo forms, people think I'm calling the forms useless and get really defensive.

Often, that thing that is supposedly 100% worthless takes a different perspective that at the very least could give you a new insight.

I think this is where the OP is coming from, his perceived idea the MMA is superior to all. We've seen it often enough, there's been enough arguments over this, I'm not going to repeat them, I've done karate and MMA so know both sides.
I've also seen the kick boxing v karate and the Kung Fu v karate arguments as kick boxing and King Fu became the new shiny styles that caught the public's attention. It's like teenagers rolling their eyes at their parents The new shiny things always attract attention, people think they are 'new and improved ' but they are usually just the old stuff recycled and in a new package. Even MMA is old, very old in fact.

 

[Hyoho]

When did it become the Japanese way to preserve tradition? Things were changing all the time in Japan with regard to karate, until very recently.

My connections are with members of Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. Like all arts there is grey area that leads to interpretation. Then there are the characteristic differences that have one head differing to another. But we should all strive for no adaptation if we practice for cultural reasons. God knows we have enough ryuha as it is without starting yet another one. We do our best to hand down what we learn 'as is' from our Sensei/Soke/Shihan

So how long have you lived in Japan? What gave you the idea that japanese dont try to preserve tradition? There is an old Japanese quotation of, "If it works don't change it".

 

[Hyoho]

I think this is where the OP is coming from, his perceived idea the MMA is superior to all.

What I do really like about it is many ways of adaptation from all the arts. And to see all these variation pitted against each other. But in no way is it superior.

 

[GojuTommy]

My connections are with members of Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. Like all arts there is grey area that leads to interpretation. Then there are the characteristic differences that have one head differing to another. But we should all strive for no adaptation if we practice for cultural reasons. God knows we have enough ryuha as it is without starting yet another one. We do our best to hand down what we learn 'as is' from our Sensei/Soke/Shihan

So how long have you lived in Japan? What gave you the idea that japanese dont try to preserve tradition? There is an old Japanese quotation of, "If it works don't change it".

I never said the Japanese don’t try to preserve traditions, I ask when that started, since karate was clearly changing, advancing and evolving, at least into the 60s, but best I can tell into the 80s. So when did advancement end and preservation die? About the time the founders of the major styles and/or their direct students died? Kinda seems like that.

Is karate working? It’s a martial art with most of its practitioners seriously lacking in martial skill.

 

[GojuTommy]

I think this is where the OP is coming from, his perceived idea the MMA is superior to all. We've seen it often enough, there's been enough arguments over this, I'm not going to repeat them, I've done karate and MMA so know both sides.
I've also seen the kick boxing v karate and the Kung Fu v karate arguments as kick boxing and King Fu became the new shiny styles that caught the public's attention. It's like teenagers rolling their eyes at their parents The new shiny things always attract attention, people think they are 'new and improved ' but they are usually just the old stuff recycled and in a new package. Even MMA is old, very old in fact.

That’s a weird interpretation of what I have said, considering I have literally never said that.
That being said, mma isn’t a style that can be superior to any style.
That also being said, karate is a form of mma, since it’s creation up to the modern era is a result of multiple styles being mixed.

 

[_Simon_]

I never said the Japanese don’t try to preserve traditions, I ask when that started, since karate was clearly changing, advancing and evolving, at least into the 60s, but best I can tell into the 80s. So when did advancement end and preservation die? About the time the founders of the major styles and/or their direct students died? Kinda seems like that.

Is karate working? It’s a martial art with most of its practitioners seriously lacking in martial skill.

Do you feel that preservation and adaption are opposites? Just trying to understand the framework through which you're viewing the issue..

I sort of see them as working together. You can preserve principles of an art whilst adapting and evolving how they're expressed in specifics. Karate from my view has done this continually throughout the years, even if you can't see it.

"Is karate working?" What do you actually mean by that general question?