Does karate need to evolve?

[GojuTommy]

Or guns. I dig small holes. Shovel works fine. Karate does not need to evolve. Students need to be better students.

Lmao, great teacher you must be. Telling students to be better students. Great mindset.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I'm gonna do a proper translation of this tomorrow, across the Sinosphere.

 

[Tez3]

I don’t know where you get the idea I’m against karate let alone ‘aggressively’ against it. Suggesting something needs to make changes doesn’t mean you’re against that thing. It means you think that thing could be and should be better, which to me is the most supportive thing someone can do for a person or activity.

You can look at the videos of pretty much any school that puts videos of their training online and see that most are doing things the same way, and if you look back it’s the same way things have been done for the last 30-40 years.

People talking about the different ideas behind kata, and whether or not the lost meaning theory doesn’t mean karate is changing. Wouldn’t be surprised if people weren’t having these same discussion 30 years ago when the internet was first born, and here we are still with no general consensus, stagnately speculating.

This speculation however isn’t really relevant to the discussion however.

You see, there you are judging karate by what's on video, not by visiting, not by personal experience but but snippets of video by non professional video makers who are unlikely to show their best.
If I look back 30-40 years that the time I've been training karate, I don't have to watch videos. Most definitely things aren't done the same way. People weren't discussing kata then much, people like Iain Abernathy, Geoff Thompson, Ticky Donovan, Tatsuo Suzuki, Steve Arneil, Dave Hazard and many more have had huge influence on karate here. You speculate all you want but I know, because I was there.

You are aggressively pursuing this, I don't know why but you are barging through people's posts like a preacher trying to force his views on a crowd.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Lmao, great teacher you must be. Telling students to be better students. Great mindset.

If a student is poor at any given subject that others have mastered, is it the fault of the subject?

Perhaps before declaring that a new karate must be invented because they cannot learn the original, they should try harder to learn what they're missing.

 

[GojuTommy]

If a student is poor at any given subject that others have mastered, is it the fault of the subject?

Perhaps before declaring that a new karate must be invented because they cannot learn the original, they should try harder to learn what they're missing.

If a student is failing it’s the teacher’s fault 100% bad teachers blame students. Some students may struggle more to learn something but that’s likely not because they’re a bad student because some people are left brained and some are right brained meaning that some people will struggle with karate no matter what.

Where are you people coming up with this stuff? What’s with the fascination with y’all claiming I’ve said things I didn’t even remotely say?

 

[GojuTommy]

You see, there you are judging karate by what's on video, not by visiting, not by personal experience but but snippets of video by non professional video makers who are unlikely to show their best.
If I look back 30-40 years that the time I've been training karate, I don't have to watch videos. Most definitely things aren't done the same way. People weren't discussing kata then much, people like Iain Abernathy, Geoff Thompson, Ticky Donovan, Tatsuo Suzuki, Steve Arneil, Dave Hazard and many more have had huge influence on karate here. You speculate all you want but I know, because I was there.

You are aggressively pursuing this, I don't know why but you are barging through people's posts like a preacher trying to force his views on a crowd.

I have visited several schools, but I’m not Jeff bezos so I cannot travel to visit 500 dojos on every continent.

I’d bet I can get a wider view of the over arching trends of karate via video, than you have from in person visits of dojos. Why? because in the time it takes you to drive to another dojo I can find and watch examples of karate from at least five different dojos.

Your argument criticizing my reference of videos does not hold water, because those videos are karate schools.
If your school is different great! No reason to be butt hurt and take what I’ve said personally.

You seem to be taking this as a personal attack on you and your dojo.
Take a step back, and breath.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If a student is failing it’s the teacher’s fault 100% bad teachers blame students. Some students may struggle more to learn something but that’s likely not because they’re a bad student because some people are left brained and some are right brained meaning that some people will struggle with karate no matter what.

Where are you people coming up with this stuff? What’s with the fascination with y’all claiming I’ve said things I didn’t even remotely say?

I haven't claimed you said anything. Have a nice day.

 

[GojuTommy]

If a student is poor at any given subject that others have mastered, is it the fault of the subject?

Perhaps before declaring that a new karate must be invented because they cannot learn the original, they should try harder to learn what they're missing.

Did you already forget about the second part of this post?
That didn’t take long at all.

 

[hoshin1600]

People talking about the different ideas behind kata, and whether or not the lost meaning theory doesn’t mean karate is changing. Wouldn’t be surprised if people weren’t having these same discussion 30 years ago when the internet was first born, and here we are still with no general consensus, stagnately speculating.

I was there, as were a few others here. The first online form I knew of was Uechi-Ryu. Com in 1993. It's still there but the forms died over time. I miss those days. We debated all kinds of things but mostly ironically the dichotomy between self defense realities VS traditions within karate. I can also tell you the concepts of MMA ( mixed MA) were well established in the 1980's we called it cross training. The UFC was just the ideal proving ground for a wellspring of a bottom up movement of ideas and training. Sure we were not doing BJJ yet but judo was there. I was the young buck doing Muay thai shin kicks on the bag thinking I was doing something special only to find out later they already existed in Okinawa.

 

[GojuTommy]

I was there, as were a few others here. The first online form I knew of was Uechi-Ryu. Com in 1993. It's still there but the forms died over time. I miss those days. We debated all kinds of things but mostly ironically the dichotomy between self defense realities VS traditions within karate. I can also tell you the concepts of MMA ( mixed MA) were well established in the 1980's we called it cross training. The UFC was just the ideal proving ground for a wellspring of a bottom up movement of ideas and training. Sure we were not doing BJJ yet but judo was there. I was the young buck doing Muay thai shin kicks on the bag thinking I was doing something special only to find out later they already existed in Okinawa.

And the mixed nature of karate and the way the ‘old masters’ trained all over the island with each other, went to China to train, and eventually continued on to train Japanese martial arts shows that within the karate community cross training has always been a thing.

For me the whole crux of the evolution I think we need to see is moving away from complex combinations on stationary partners, and once someone has the basic movements understood moving away from sooo many compliant partner drills, and increasing the regularity of pressure training.
It doesn’t even have to be full contact full time, but light contact continuous sparring gives much the same feedback without the CTE. hard/heavy spars I think should happen occasionally, but I’m not advocating a full time head hunting course.

 

[Tez3]

If a student is failing it’s the teacher’s fault 100% bad teachers blame students. Some students may struggle more to learn something but that’s likely not because they’re a bad student because some people are left brained and some are right brained meaning that some people will struggle with karate no matter what.

Where are you people coming up with this stuff? What’s with the fascination with y’all claiming I’ve said things I didn’t even remotely say?

There are students who fail however good their teacher/instructor is, these are the students who simply don't want to be in the class, who have no intention of learning and are only there because of the insistence of a parent (usually, though in schools certain subjects are often compulsory)

I have visited several schools, but I’m not Jeff bezos so I cannot travel to visit 500 dojos on every continent.

I’d bet I can get a wider view of the over arching trends of karate via video, than you have from in person visits of dojos. Why? because in the time it takes you to drive to another dojo I can find and watch examples of karate from at least five different dojos.

Your argument criticizing my reference of videos does not hold water, because those videos are karate schools.
If your school is different great! No reason to be butt hurt and take what I’ve said personally.

You seem to be taking this as a personal attack on you and your dojo.
Take a step back, and breath.

Why do you assume I'm upset? How odd, this is a discussion site, I'm discussing, it seems you are not, you are attempting to belittle me by saying I'm thinking emotionally not logically. A tactic often used by men against women. Shame it doesn't work, but never mind, it amuses me. You are way off if you think I'm taking this personally or as an attack on my martial arts club that trains MMA.
So, because random karate schools are posting random videos and you're watching them this gives you the wisdom of Solomon where karate is concerned, ok then. On social media at any time you can see the confusion watching videos causes, the sheer amount of misinformation or misunderstood information.

The recent death of Queen Elizabeth ll is a case in point, so much misunderstood information gained from watching videos, it's staggering. Not to mention a fictional television series people think is real. A video was posted up of a Household Cavalry soldier shouting at a spectator to move brought the most imbecilic comments from people who had absolutely no idea what they were watching but assumed they knew everything from watching a couple of minutes of film. The assumptions were staggering. But there you go, watching a few minutes of a video tells you everything.

Please do continue to lecture us on why your view of karate is superior. It's as good as watching politics here in the UK at the moment.

 

[GojuTommy]

There are students who fail however good their teacher/instructor is, these are the students who simply don't want to be in the class, who have no intention of learning and are only there because of the insistence of a parent (usually, though in schools certain subjects are often compulsory)


Why do you assume I'm upset? How odd, this is a discussion site, I'm discussing, it seems you are not, you are attempting to belittle me by saying I'm thinking emotionally not logically. A tactic often used by men against women. Shame it doesn't work, but never mind, it amuses me. You are way off if you think I'm taking this personally or as an attack on my martial arts club that trains MMA.
So, because random karate schools are posting random videos and you're watching them this gives you the wisdom of Solomon where karate is concerned, ok then. On social media at any time you can see the confusion watching videos causes, the sheer amount of misinformation or misunderstood information.

The recent death of Queen Elizabeth ll is a case in point, so much misunderstood information gained from watching videos, it's staggering. Not to mention a fictional television series people think is real. A video was posted up of a Household Cavalry soldier shouting at a spectator to move brought the most imbecilic comments from people who had absolutely no idea what they were watching but assumed they knew everything from watching a couple of minutes of film. The assumptions were staggering. But there you go, watching a few minutes of a video tells you everything.

Please do continue to lecture us on why your view of karate is superior. It's as good as watching politics here in the UK at the moment.

The first point a good teacher will be able to reach them, and make a very strong effort to do so. The students who are actively resisting are the ones who need the most attention, and it’s up to the adult aka the teacher to figure out how they can break through to those students.

Sure it’s much easier and more immediately rewarding to focus your attention in the students who want to be there and are therefore easy to teach, but anyone can teach those students. Teaching those students doesn’t need mean someone is a good teacher.

Next you have been very defensive, so that makes it seem you’re very upset about the way you do things being questioned. Your last little bit is a perfect example.
People who put words in other peoples’ mouths are indeed defensive and being emotional (your words I’ll remind you)

 

[hoshin1600]

For me the whole crux of the evolution I think we need to see is moving away from complex combinations on stationary partners,

I dont know your background, but in my experience the only style I have seen this with is Kenpo/kempo which by strict definition is a Western/American construct. Not okinawan or japanese karate. The karate I know has short block strike drills but that's it. I have lots of criticisms on karate but generally complex combinations is not one of them.

 

[GojuTommy]

I dont know your background, but in my experience the only style I have seen this with is Kenpo/kempo which by strict definition is a Western/American construct. Not okinawan or japanese karate. The karate I know has short block strike drills but that's it. I have lots of criticisms on karate but generally complex combinations is not one of them.

Might be a uniquely western thing, but ‘western’ even if that only means america is still a very large portion of the global karate community, which makes it an issue for the karate community as a whole.

What are some of your complaints?

Edit
This is a great example with my issues with the modern karate community and i don’t think this is Islamabad Pennsylvania USA

 

[Tez3]

The first point a good teacher will be able to reach them, and make a very strong effort to do so. The students who are actively resisting are the ones who need the most attention, and it’s up to the adult aka the teacher to figure out how they can break through to those students.

Sure it’s much easier and more immediately rewarding to focus your attention in the students who want to be there and are therefore easy to teach, but anyone can teach those students. Teaching those students doesn’t need mean someone is a good teacher.

Next you have been very defensive, so that makes it seem you’re very upset about the way you do things being questioned. Your last little bit is a perfect example.
People who put words in other peoples’ mouths are indeed defensive and being emotional (your words I’ll remind you)

Oh dear, now you've decided I'm defensive merely because I've answered you. You really are working the belittling bit aren't you.

I suppose you didn't notice I said we train MMA? No, because you didn't read what I said. for my personal karate training I go to various clubs and seminars depending on where I am, so no you aren't criticising 'my dojo' at all.

Several times now you've accused people with putting words in your mouth, it's becoming boring.

The thing is you aren't criticising the way we train because you don't know how we train, you watch a few videos and decide karate everywhere needs changing
I know nothing about how CMA is taught, I would not have the audacity to watch a few videos and start a thread telling practitioners they need to change but hey you do you.

 

[GojuTommy]

Oh dear, now you've decided I'm defensive merely because I've answered you. You really are working the belittling bit aren't you.

I suppose you didn't notice I said we train MMA? No, because you didn't read what I said. for my personal karate training I go to various clubs and seminars depending on where I am, so no you aren't criticising 'my dojo' at all.

Several times now you've accused people with putting words in your mouth, it's becoming boring.

The thing is you aren't criticising the way we train because you don't know how we train, you watch a few videos and decide karate everywhere needs changing
I know nothing about how CMA is taught, I would not have the audacity to watch a few videos and start a thread telling practitioners they need to change but hey you do you.

Either you’re trolling or you you can’t make an honest assessment of your replies.
Have a good day.

 

[Tez3]

Either you’re trolling or you you can’t make an honest assessment of your replies.
Have a good day.

And there we have the next expected attempted put down meaning 'I have no answer so I'm going to say your are Fleming's
My dear man, why would I need to make an assessment of my replies, I wrote them .

 

[hoshin1600]

Might be a uniquely western thing, but ‘western’ even if that only means america is still a very large portion of the global karate community, which makes it an issue for the karate community as a whole.

What are some of your complaints?

Edit
This is a great example with my issues with the modern karate community and i don’t think this is Islamabad Pennsylvania USA

I do not speak any Arabic languages so I don't know what the vid is about, but the title says Bando, which is not karate. Bando is a martial art from Myanmar. The title does also say karate, so I would assume it's a mix of multiple arts. Which BTW undermines your argument because that vid is a good example of what happens when you try to mix and match and evolve a traditional art. You get bottle kicking, flaming brick breaking, bow & arrow shooting nunchuck swinging nonsense.

 

[GojuTommy]

I do not speak any Arabic languages so I don't know what the vid is about, but the title says Bando, which is not karate. Bando is a martial art from Myanmar. The title does also say karate, so I would assume it's a mix of multiple arts. Which BTW undermines your argument because that vid is a good example of what happens when you try to mix and match and evolve a traditional art. You get bottle kicking, flaming brick breaking, bow & arrow shooting nunchuck swinging nonsense.

You get that same thing in karate schools that don’t try to mix things. You get that with schools that are afraid to actually make contact with each other.

The tonfa/knife thing was my point thought about long complicated combos on static opponents

 

[wab25]

you can’t make an honest assessment of your replies.

I would suggest making an honest assessment of your position....

You have two things that Karate needs to change. You are challenging everyone here to open our minds to see these new points, and to accept them. Hopefully, the entire Karate community will accept these new changes.

Your first change is that Karate needs to be open to new techniques. You are right. You are 100% right. Karate does need to bring in new and evolving techniques. This idea is so right and so correct.... that the founders of the different styles of Karate, made this same point. In fact, they built there styles of Karate as a framework, to be able to use those new and evolving techniques. So, this change you are asking for, is not in fact a change... it was there from the beginning. Have there been schools and teachers and students that missed this point? Absolutely. A good way to tell if someone is missing this piece in their understanding is if they view kata as a dictionary of techniques, and restrict an art to only the techniques found in the kata.

Your second change is to add more pressure testing and resistance to the training. Again, you are correct. Again, you are so right, that the founders already did this. Many, many schools have pressure testing, resistance testing in all kinds of different ways. Again, some schools, teachers or students missed or strayed from this.... The way to tell if a person has missed this part of the training, is that they think Karate does not have this type of training.

In short, you are asking us to open our minds to accept these new changes you propose. The reality is that these are not new changes at all, but core to the art of Karate already. But if it helps... you are correct, Karate should make these changes.... so much so that the founders made karate that way.