Does karate need to evolve?

[Tez3]

Traditional karate is a made up thing.
All of our ‘traditions’ are primarily 60-70 years old…which guess what…is about the same timeframe that karateka began developing kickboxing in the US and Japan.

All martial arts are a made up thing. Traditional means it's been going on for a while. 60-70 years is long enough to be considered traditional. My karate style was recognised in Japan 87 years ago. Did you believe the stories that Karate was thousands of years old so that anything developed in the 19th and 20th century CE isn't real?
Karateka developing kick boxing isn't the same thing as kick boxing being part of karate.
You are going to avoid all hard questions aren't you?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Uh, I'd argue some Okinawan te styles are way older than 70 years, and pretty evolved and progressive from a modern standpoint. Motobu-Ryu stressed kumite over kata and included a lot of jujutsu throws, and is also the source of some of my favorite Shotokan jokes.

Nothing in martial arts is funnier and better IMHO, than two old masters who can't stand each other. That's not just a movie thing, it really happen(s).

Motobu & Funakoshi – The Habu & The Mongoose

You know how the old masters of Karate would always write noble things like: “The ultimate goal of Karate is to seek perfection of character” and “Seek to improve yourself and your manners” and that kind of stuff? Well… Let’s just say that everyone didn’t really follow what they wrote...

www.karatebyjesse.com

 

[isshinryuronin]

Te from 1890 was very different from Te of 1910

How was toude different from 1890 to 1910? Or even from 1880-1920? I know of no event or particular change during this time. What do you base your statement on?

karate of the 60s which was very different from the karate of the 80s

Having been in karate spanning this time I don't think it was "very" different, other than the belt inflation due to its increasing commercialization and expansion. Kickboxing and professional contact karate (related, but two different things) branched out from traditional karate during this time, but IMO did not cause much change in traditional karate.

 

[GojuTommy]

All martial arts are a made up thing. Traditional means it's been going on for a while. 60-70 years is long enough to be considered traditional. My karate style was recognised in Japan 87 years ago. Did you believe the stories that Karate was thousands of years old so that anything developed in the 19th and 20th century CE isn't real?
Karateka developing kick boxing isn't the same thing as kick boxing being part of karate.
You are going to avoid all hard questions aren't you?

All martial arts are a made up thing. Traditional means it's been going on for a while. 60-70 years is long enough to be considered traditional. My karate style was recognised in Japan 87 years ago. Did you believe the stories that Karate was thousands of years old so that anything developed in the 19th and 20th century CE isn't real?
Karateka developing kick boxing isn't the same thing as kick boxing being part of karate.
You are going to avoid all hard questions aren't you?

Weird how karate is a ‘traditional’ martial art while Muay Thai isn’t despite being much older. BJJ also is just as old or even older than karate, yet not considered traditional.

This obsession with ‘tradition’ is exactly part of what I see as a problem in karate. I’m not sure when that term started being used, but it’s just a weird title some people started using to imply their styles are better than others.

 

[Gyakuto]

This obsession with ‘tradition’ is exactly part of what I see as a problem in karate. I’m not sure when that term started being used, but it’s just a weird title some people started using to imply their styles are better than others.

It is well known that anything old, is better than anything not-so-old (THIS IS IRONY)

 

[GojuTommy]

Uh, I'd argue some Okinawan te styles are way older than 70 years, and pretty evolved and progressive from a modern standpoint. Motobu-Ryu stressed kumite over kata and included a lot of jujutsu throws, and is also the source of some of my favorite Shotokan jokes.

Nothing in martial arts is funnier and better IMHO, than two old masters who can't stand each other. That's not just a movie thing, it really happen(s).

Motobu & Funakoshi – The Habu & The Mongoose

You know how the old masters of Karate would always write noble things like: “The ultimate goal of Karate is to seek perfection of character” and “Seek to improve yourself and your manners” and that kind of stuff? Well… Let’s just say that everyone didn’t really follow what they wrote...

www.karatebyjesse.com

It can be argued, sure but then the question becomes when and where in history exactly the line is drawn.

Most of the major styles of karate formalized under their current names and founders in the 30s, some much later, so the only way to make it not make it a big subjective mess of an argument is to go by the founding date of each style of karate.

Personally I blame funakoshi for most of the short comings I find in modern karate since shotokan is the single largest style and there have been countless offshoots of shotokan. If only mutobu and others had been as good at marketing as funakoshi.

 

[GojuTommy]

It is well known that anything old, is better than anything not-so-old (THIS IS IRONY)

Barney would like a word with you

 

[Tez3]

Weird how karate is a ‘traditional’ martial art while Muay Thai isn’t despite being much older. BJJ also is just as old or even older than karate, yet not considered traditional.

This obsession with ‘tradition’ is exactly part of what I see as a problem in karate. I’m not sure when that term started being used, but it’s just a weird title some people started using to imply their styles are better than others.

Must Thai is considered a traditional martial art, why wouldn't it be. It's described as Thailand's traditional martial art along with Muay Boran. BJJ isn't regarded as particularly new, sensible people understand that while it's newish to many of us it is a traditional style which derives from other traditional styles.
Tradition is not an obsession with karateka, people just like to think they are following in the footsteps of others.
You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about karate so please tell us what you train in, I've asked before. I shall think you just train in YouTube Fu soon.

 

[Tez3]

It is well known that anything old, is better than anything not-so-old (THIS IS IRONY)

Dear me, I must be absolutely perfect then being so old.

 

[Gyakuto]

YouTube Fu

Now, that is thousands of years old.

 

[Gyakuto]

Dear me, I must be absolutely perfect then being so old.

A great sage, perhaps

 

[Tez3]

A great sage, perhaps

More like sage and onion stuffing

 

[GojuTommy]

Must Thai is considered a traditional martial art, why wouldn't it be. It's described as Thailand's traditional martial art along with Muay Boran. BJJ isn't regarded as particularly new, sensible people understand that while it's newish to many of us it is a traditional style which derives from other traditional styles.
Tradition is not an obsession with karateka, people just like to think they are following in the footsteps of others.
You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about karate so please tell us what you train in, I've asked before. I shall think you just train in YouTube Fu soon.

Context clues aren’t your strong suit are they?

You never go any where new if you’re focusing on following where others have gone first…and that’s just another way of saying people are obsessed with tradition.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Must Thai is considered a traditional martial art, why wouldn't it be. It's described as Thailand's traditional martial art along with Muay Boran. BJJ isn't regarded as particularly new, sensible people understand that while it's newish to many of us it is a traditional style which derives from other traditional styles.
Tradition is not an obsession with karateka, people just like to think they are following in the footsteps of others.
You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about karate so please tell us what you train in, I've asked before. I shall think you just train in YouTube Fu soon.

The Tradition Fu.

 

[Tez3]

Context clues aren’t your strong suit are they?

You never go any where new if you’re focusing on following where others have gone first…and that’s just another way of saying people are obsessed with tradition.

Well, I wondered when you'd start getting unpleasant. You won't answer my very reasonable questions, being intent instead on telling us why things should be as you decree.
You decided people are obsessed with tradition, so it must be so. Yet karateka are exploring new ways to train, new ways to work out Bunkai, making new katas, isn't that strange for people hidebound in tradition? Karateka are pursuing knowledge all the time yet you say they are stuck in tradition, how odd because surely you, the arbiter of all things karate, (do you train karate?) say that Karate is moribund. Oh my.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

As I understand karate and it’s history, there’s been a constant fluidity and evolution of karate and what would eventually be known as karate.
However it seems to me that by and large karate has stagnated.

Sure there’s some people doing some new stuff like kudo, but even that came around in ‘81.
We’ve got karate combat, but if you look at the comments there’s supposed ‘karateka’ all over their videos saying “this isn’t karate” so it’s hard to say there’s any major evolution happening within the karate community as a whole.

I was an early subscriber to the Karate Culture YT channel, and don’t hold modern karate against those who enjoy it. However the question about the lack of ‘middle age group’ people, not the young kids and not the 40+ crowd in karate shows that karate is falling behind in some metrics.
Sure targeting children will keep dojos open and the style alive as some of those kids will be lifers themselves, but that’s a survival via life support imho.

I believe for karate to have a renaissance and have a chance to thrive again, there need to be some changes that occur. Changes that require some people to become students again to learn new ways of doing things.

I think a style that offers 3 K training side by side with honest pressure testing can exist. I think pointing fighting dojos can exist while karate combat style dojos also become more common, heck I believe one dojo can successfully do both.

The one thing I believe most of all is this idea of never changing ‘traditions’ that are largely less than a century old is going to kill karate especially in the west.

They still dig holes with shovels, don't they?

 

[skribs]

They still dig holes with shovels, don't they?

Sometimes. Sometimes they use tractors.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Here is a quote from Chojun Miyagi, founder of Goju-Ryu back in 1936

I'm familiar with the general content and some direct quotes of this and other summits around that time but have never seen a transcript as full as this. It clearly shows the Okinawan thinking of the time and illustrates some important points (which you highlighted).

The main thing the excerpt details, IMO, is the discussion of 2 sets of kata: The traditional ones and newly created ones. This line of thought resulted in the schism of "two karates," The traditional ("real") kata/karate, and a version "suitable for students of primary, high schools..." the results of which are still felt today and have ultimately been responsible of much of the lively karate debate on this forum.

While a whole new set of kata did not come out of this meeting, perhaps due to the onset of WWII (although the earlier Pinan/Heian forms seem to fit this desire - I'm unsure why they were not addressed by Miyagi in this regard), the goal of providing a "simpler and gentler" version was accomplished by modifying the existing kata (though this process began in the 1920's in Japan). This was the version largely exported to the West. Many, even today, see this modified version as being "karate," being unaware that the less modified Okinawan style of karate still exists.

I don't think the Okinawans would have taken it upon themselves to change, if not for the pressure exerted by Japan. In fact, they had resisted adopting the gi and ranking system, terminology (karate was still mostly referred to as "toude/toudi" in the Okinawan dialect) and changing the names of their kata. Remember, most of those attending the 1936 meeting grew up while their homeland was still technically the independent Ryuuku Kingdom. Also, their training began while karate was still taught semi-secretly, so they were not keen to reveal everything to the Japanese or general public. But the rising nationalism in Japan and the desire to maintain and spread their native art led Okinawan karate to play along with the Japanese way to some extent.

Must have been an exciting time.

 

[GojuTommy]

They still dig holes with shovels, don't they?

Not if it can be avoided, but even the shovels have changed and gotten better.

 

[GojuTommy]

Well, I wondered when you'd start getting unpleasant. You won't answer my very reasonable questions, being intent instead on telling us why things should be as you decree.
You decided people are obsessed with tradition, so it must be so. Yet karateka are exploring new ways to train, new ways to work out Bunkai, making new katas, isn't that strange for people hidebound in tradition? Karateka are pursuing knowledge all the time yet you say they are stuck in tradition, how odd because surely you, the arbiter of all things karate, (do you train karate?) say that Karate is moribund. Oh my.

I mean I don’t have time for stupid questions.
I always find people like you funny. I have stated my opinions, you then go ahead and start saying I made claims I did not.

God forbid someone question the status quo.

And as for not answering my training background, pretty sure I’ve already mentioned it in previous posts, but regardless of that, I could say anything you want, and your opinion of me based on our online interactions would determine if you believe me. You can’t disprove whatever I say, and I’m comfortable enough in my own knowledge and experience that I have absolutely no desire to prove my experience and training level to a stranger online hoping to get some validation.