Do you modify your Wing Chun when sparring?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is an example that "exaggeration" is used to develop

- body method, and
- power generation.

This kind of training may be foreign to WC guys, but it's quite common used in the northern CMA systems.

 

[KPM]

'id sayou tryING to build a very narrow set of circumstances, certainly if you face someone with no fighting skills, poor fitness and slow reactions then you have every chance of winning, but people like that don't normally attack peopke in the street, unless they are drunk and or have big mates with them. t here are people who have been fighting every week since they were five, by the time they get to 25 they have built up a set of dependable fighting skills, they may not have many techniques, but they are proficient in what they do, if they have also been weight training, work in a manual job or play sports, then they will be quite a handful, I'd say a street attack is far more likely to come from the second group, if your thinking you won't get attack by someone very strong, very fast who can throw a good puntry and just walk through your best effort then your living in fantasy land.

Ok. So again.......someone's martial art training won't hold up to hard sparring or competition, yet you think think they would be able to handle the guy you just described???

 

[jobo]

Ok. So again.......someone's martial art training won't hold up to hard sparring or competition, yet you think think they would be able to handle the guy you just described???

no that wasn't the part of your missive I was disagreeing with, it was everything else you said that was WRONG,..or to put it another way, even hard sparing may not been sufficient to prepare you to fight a street attack,

 

[KPM]

no that wasn't the part of your missive I was disagreeing with, it was everything else you said that was WRONG,..or to put it another way, even hard sparing may not been sufficient to prepare you to fight a street attack,

But my "missive" was in response to the idea that sparring and "real fighting" are so different. I was providing instances in which they wouldn't be.

 

[jobo]

But my "missive" was in response to the idea that sparring and "real fighting" are so different. I was providing instances in which they wouldn't be.

you also went on at length about how any attacker is likely less skilled than you, which is optimistic to say the least. it rather depends who is attacking you and why.
sparing as most arts do it has little resemblance to how the vast majority of fights go down. and is als very much dependent on competency in the group, it's easy for a dozen people to convince themselves and hey are good when they only ever fight each other.
if you want to try your skills, go in to a rough bar, find some big bloke and tell him his wife is ugly, let me know how you go on !

 

[Dirty Dog]

you also went on at length about how any attacker is likely less skilled than you, which is optimistic to say the least. it rather depends who is attacking you and why.

I wouldn't say it's all that optimistic. I see lots of people who have been in fights. A lot. Probably a half dozen or so in the last 12 hours.
I don't think any of them had any real skills.
The vast majority of the world has zero training.

 

[jobo]

I wouldn't say it's all that optimistic. I see lots of people who have been in fights. A lot. Probably a half dozen or so in the last 12 hours.
I don't think any of them had any real skills.
The vast majority of the world has zero training.

that's a rather bias d sample, as it's the ones who have lost that end up in ER, and how have you assessed their skills or lack thereof.

a fair % of t he world have basic fighting skills, developed through fighting and augmented with weight lifting, the only time weak people with no fighting skills attack you us if they are drunk, or insane, or there are lots of them,

a trained ma, may well be better than 80% of the population, but it's the other 20% that are likely to attack you,

 

[KPM]

you also went on at length about how any attacker is likely less skilled than you, which is optimistic to say the least. it rather depends who is attacking you and why.
sparing as most arts do it has little resemblance to how the vast majority of fights go down. and is als very much dependent on competency in the group, it's easy for a dozen people to convince themselves and hey are good when they only ever fight each other.
if you want to try your skills, go in to a rough bar, find some big bloke and tell him his wife is ugly, let me know how you go on !

And.....again.....if someone can't even function all that well in sparring, how the heck are they going to do well against your "big bloke" in your "rough bar"??? THAT has been my point!

 

[jobo]

And.....again.....if someone can't even function all that well in sparring, how the heck are they going to do well against your "big bloke" in your "rough bar"??? THAT has been my point!

And the out come may well be exactly the same, if you spar or not, which makes sparing a waste of time, unless your sparing against opponents of a calibre and physical standard to match the big bloke in the bar, even then he may blind side you with a pool cue strike to the temple

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And the out come may well be exactly the same, if you spar or not, which makes sparing a waste of time, unless your sparing against opponents of a calibre and physical standard to match the big bloke in the bar, even then he may blind side you with a pool cue strike to the temple

That last one's a specious argument, Jobo. I could say the same kid of thing about literally any kind of training, at any level. Why bother to train troops? It won't help them survive being run over by a tank. Why bother to train pilots? It won't help them fly a plane if the wing falls off.

Unforeseen things can happen anywhere. You can't use the extremes to discount the value of any training. It's more useful to look at what it can help with. And there's reasonable evidence that sparring-heavy disciplines (like boxing) produce skills that work, even against a big bloke.

 

[jobo]

That last one's a specious argument, Jobo. I could say the same kid of thing about literally any kind of training, at any level. Why bother to train troops? It won't help them survive being run over by a tank. Why bother to train pilots? It won't help them fly a plane if the wing falls off.

Unforeseen things can happen anywhere. You can't use the extremes to discount the value of any training. It's more useful to look at what it can help with. And there's reasonable evidence that sparring-heavy disciplines (like boxing) produce skills that work, even against a big bloke.

its not an extreme, getting into conflict with a big blokes, with big biceps and a 24 " neck, is not at all unlikely as there the people who go round throwing their weight about and trying to intimidate people, maybe you don't get them in the middle class suburb's, ? getting blindsided by a pool cue strike is not at all unusual in rough bars, I had a lump the size of a large egg, when it happened to me, through no one has ever got me with a glass, though several have tried.

its not a case of not bothering, it's a case of being realistic, about how far sparring with a brown belt that also has never had an adult fight, against someone who can actually fight, is going to prepared you for a real genuine potential life changing encounter,

this discussion started when kpm, insisted that in any street fight he would have a marked advantage in skill, and that's an unrealistic expectations, if the definition of fightbg skill is the ability to destroy another human being very quickly, rather than having 8 different kicks

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if you want to try your skills, go in to a rough bar, find some big bloke and tell him his wife is ugly, let me know how you go on !

Last time I fought someone on the street, the guy screamed, "Please, please don't kill me." (exactly words came out of his mouth.) That guy tried to pull a girl into his car. I gave him a back neck choke. He let the girl go. I let him go. Everybody lived happy after that.

If you don't consider yourself as the prey, you will find out that there are not that many predators around.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

its not an extreme, getting into conflict with a big blokes, with big biceps and a 24 " neck, is not at all unlikely as there the people who go round throwing their weight about and trying to intimidate people, maybe you don't get them in the middle class suburb's, ? getting blindsided by a pool cue strike is not at all unusual in rough bars, I had a lump the size of a large egg, when it happened to me, through no one has ever got me with a glass, though several have tried.

I didn't say it was unusual (and the size of the bloke is immaterial). I said it was an extreme. Self defense of ANY sort is entirely useless if you don't get to use it...like that pilot's flying skills if the wings fall off.

its not a case of not bothering, it's a case of being realistic, about how far sparring with a brown belt that also has never had an adult fight, against someone who can actually fight, is going to prepared you for a real genuine potential life changing encounter,

this discussion started when kpm, insisted that in any street fight he would have a marked advantage in skill, and that's an unrealistic expectations, if the definition of fightbg skill is the ability to destroy another human being very quickly, rather than having 8 different kicks

The folks I know who've been in physical altercations - myself included, though I've had danged few in my post-teen life - found most folks to be brawlers with not a lot of skill. Those who were trained tended to have more success in those situations than those who didn't, by a significant margin. This includes input from cops, bouncers, and other folks whose jobs put them at higher risk, as well as folks who just got into fights in college.

You're right that people who get into bar fights are more likely to be experienced at bar fights. But most of the physical altercations these people experienced weren't of that variety (except for the folks who got into fights in college - they experienced pretty much what you're talking about).

The point KPM is trying to make is that sparring does help. We have some decent evidence of that, though we'll never be able to make that really scientific. Anecdotal evidence suggests a lot of the people who initiate altercations aren't really great at handling someone who knows how to control space and timing, which is what good sparring tends to help develop. Then there's the whole thing about getting a little familiar with getting hit, so it's not as startling when it happens, and less likely to confuse even when it's a surprise.

 

[jobo]

I didn't say it was unusual (and the size of the bloke is immaterial). I said it was an extreme. Self defense of ANY sort is entirely useless if you don't get to use it...like that pilot's flying skills if the wings fall off.


The folks I know who've been in physical altercations - myself included, though I've had danged few in my post-teen life - found most folks to be brawlers with not a lot of skill. Those who were trained tended to have more success in those situations than those who didn't, by a significant margin. This includes input from cops, bouncers, and other folks whose jobs put them at higher risk, as well as folks who just got into fights in college.

You're right that people who get into bar fights are more likely to be experienced at bar fights. But most of the physical altercations these people experienced weren't of that variety (except for the folks who got into fights in college - they experienced pretty much what you're talking about).

The point KPM is trying to make is that sparring does help. We have some decent evidence of that, though we'll never be able to make that really scientific. Anecdotal evidence suggests a lot of the people who initiate altercations aren't really great at handling someone who knows how to control space and timing, which is what good sparring tends to help develop. Then there's the whole thing about getting a little familiar with getting hit, so it's not as startling when it happens, and less likely to confuse even when it's a surprise.

the point kpm made and I took issue with is quite clear and not what you and he now says it was,
he said he would have more skill than an attacker, not that sparring helps,( which he also said) which I can only agree with, but it only helps if you win, it didn't help at all if you got beaten up anyway.

that aside, brawling is a fighting skills, blind siding you for the first strike is a common ploy, and then they brawl you to death, controling distance is difficult if they have both hands round your throat and their knee in your chest,

these are the common things that occur in brawls, spar ring that doesn't mimic life is fantasy , fighting skills that will never come in to use apart from an idealised situation wgen they tell you they are comibg to attack

when you learn to fight back after somebody has wacked you very hard with a cue or a fist is when you have reasonable self defence skills

 

[Gerry Seymour]

the point kpm made and I took issue with is quite clear and not what you and he now says it was,
he said he would have more skill than an attacker, not that sparring helps,( which he also said) which I can only agree with, but it only helps if you win, it didn't help at all if you got beaten up anyway.

that aside, brawling is a fighting skills, blind siding you for the first strike is a common ploy, and then they brawl you to death, controling distance is difficult if they have both hands round your throat and their knee in your chest,

these are the common things that occur in brawls, spar ring that doesn't mimic life is fantasy , fighting skills that will never come in to use apart from an idealised situation wgen they tell you they are comibg to attack

when you learn to fight back after somebody has wacked you very hard with a cue or a fist is when you have reasonable self defence skills

You live in a very strange world there inside your head, Jobo.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You live in a very strange world there inside your head, Jobo.

If you don't think that you can handle a fight, why are you training MA for? It's not fun to live in a world that you believe everybody all try to beat you up.

 

[KPM]

i

this discussion started when kpm, insisted that in any street fight he would have a marked advantage in skill, and that's an unrealistic expectations, if the definition of fightbg skill is the ability to destroy another human being very quickly, rather than having 8 different kicks

I did NOT say "any street fighter." I already pointed out that I was simply giving you a circumstance where you were wrong in your assertions. And Dirty Dog, who I believe actually deals with such encounters on a pretty regular basis, backed up the circumstance I was pointing out. Sure, you might come up against your "big bloke" if you are hanging out in disreputable bars. But you are just as likely to come across the unskilled thug hoping for an easy target in a dark parking lot after a long day a work. But....bottom-line....fighting is fighting. If someone has problems getting their martial art and what they have trained to work in a sparring situation, they are very likely to have trouble getting it to work in a real situation. Control of timing, distance, power generation, and reaction to stress and adrenaline are all things that are learned in hard sparring. And these are things that are likely to come in very handy in a street fight. So your assertion that sparring and fighting on the street are nothing alike is just not accurate. I'm not saying this is you.....but this kind of argument is exactly what I've heard over the years from people that essentially only train forms and drills and never spar or really pressure test what they are training but still like to have this fantasy about what a great fighter they are and how they could take on any of those MMA guys if they had to.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And these are things that are likely to come in very handy in a street fight.

Let's make this discussion simple. If you hit on your heavy bag 100 times daily, in 1 year you have hit on your heavy bag 36,000 times. In 10 years, you have hit on heavy bag 365,000 times. Comparing to an average street guy who may not even hit on heavy bag at all, if you still lose a fight against this guy, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself.

 

[KPM]

Let's make this discussion simple. If you hit on your heavy bag 100 times daily, in 1 year you have hit on your heavy bag 36,000 times. In 10 years, you have hit on heavy bag 365,000 times. Comparing to an average street guy who may not even hit on heavy bag at all, if you still lose a fight against this guy, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself.

But what if that street guy has been scrappy enough to have learned a little bit of evasive boxing footwork and manages to stay just out of range of your amazing heavy bag punch? What if you never have the opportunity to land that punch because you have spent all of your time punching a bag and have never squared off in front of someone and actually tried to do it for real against a partner that is doing their best to keep you from landing it???

 

[jobo]

I did NOT say "any street fighter." I already pointed out that I was simply giving you a circumstance where you were wrong in your assertions. And Dirty Dog, who I believe actually deals with such encounters on a pretty regular basis, backed up the circumstance I was pointing out. Sure, you might come up against your "big bloke" if you are hanging out in disreputable bars. But you are just as likely to come across the unskilled thug hoping for an easy target in a dark parking lot after a long day a work. But....bottom-line....fighting is fighting. If someone has problems getting their martial art and what they have trained to work in a sparring situation, they are very likely to have trouble getting it to work in a real situation. Control of timing, distance, power generation, and reaction to stress and adrenaline are all things that are learned in hard sparring. And these are things that are likely to come in very handy in a street fight. So your assertion that sparring and fighting on the street are nothing alike is just not accurate. I'm not saying this is you.....but this kind of argument is exactly what I've heard over the years from people that essentially only train forms and drills and never spar or really pressure test what they are training but still like to have this fantasy about what a great fighter they are and how they could take on any of those MMA guys if they had to.

How have you come to the conckusion " it's just as likely" there no data or rational to support that , small weak uncoordinated people don't go round attacking people ,unless they brink a knife or some friends,

But ok if your attacked buy an unarmed 140 lbs guy with little strength and very poor co ordination, and no mates,who attacks from the front and gives you warning if his intent , you will possibly win with ease

Change any of tgose and the odds against you increase dramatically,

Il accept your point on the benifit of sparring, but its not as straight firward as you sugest as being sparring against non sparring . Ma clubs set up a positive feed back loop, where they only spar with each other, and as non of them can actually fight, they get the impression they are far more capable than they are .if your telling me you can destroy any of you partners in 10 seconds, then may be your good, if Nigel the accountant is matching you then perhaps not, go and do some full contact contests, if you want a reality check, or pip down the MMA gym and fight a few beginers,