When do you start sparring?

[JowGaWolf]

I can see some benefits to day-one sparring. However, I can also see some drawbacks. Someone who is completely inept, but who wants to learn, can easily feel like there's no place for them. If you manage the expectation with them, then it probably isn't a problem often. I doubt there's much learning value in first-day sparring, but probably no harm in it, either. One big benefit of it would be for the folks who think they are better than they are.

The more I think about it, the more I want to figure out a way to get something like this in very early. I just have to figure out how to keep it safe and meaningful within what we do.

Sparring to learn makes it safe and sets the mindset that will help them later on. If they go at sparring with them mindset of "I win" and "You lose" then it will get dangerous. If they have the mindset that sparring is just a safe way to practice techniques, then they will actually spar so that they can actually practice techniques and make mistake without getting hurt. Sparring to learn also makes it easier to encourage students who may be intimidated by the idea of getting hit or kicked hard. Once they see that no one is trying to hurt the other then they will join. The biggest benefit is that it helps to keep Egos under control as well by not focusing on who is the toughest.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm talking about "full contact" and not "light contact".

After you get married, get a full time job, have kids, have house and car payment, you don't want to get punched on the head. IMO, people should try to develop as much as fighting experience as they can when they are still young.

I didn't want to get punched in the head when I was young, either. I make my living with my brain, and always have.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sparring to learn makes it safe and sets the mindset that will help them later on. If they go at sparring with them mindset of "I win" and "You lose" then it will get dangerous. If they have the mindset that sparring is just a safe way to practice techniques, then they will actually spar so that they can actually practice techniques and make mistake without getting hurt. Sparring to learn also makes it easier to encourage students who may be intimidated by the idea of getting hit or kicked hard. Once they see that no one is trying to hurt the other then they will join. The biggest benefit is that it helps to keep Egos under control as well by not focusing on who is the toughest.

I guess it depends how you define sparring. To me, there's a competitive element even in very controlled sparring. You are trying to (hit me, throw me, clinch me, whatever) and I'm trying to stop you from doing it. How much can a first-day student learn from stepping into that. If you're including what has been referred to as 1-step sparring, then definitely. Free sparring, however, I just don't see the value of it day one, since the student doesn't have anything to learn from yet.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How much can a first-day student learn from stepping into that

For adults and kids who are sparring for the first time, the only thing that Sifu wanted them to do were:
1. Move around - Moving around helped conditioning
2. Keep their hands up - This is the ultimate rule no mater the age or skill level. We here this even in professional fights
3. Make Mistakes - Mistakes during sparring are always welcome because it's the quickest way to know what a student needs to work on the most.

Non of these things require martial art skills. In addition not all students come in as a blank slate without any idea of how to spar. Some have the movement down because maybe they have a sibling that they horseplay with.

The other benefit of sparring is that it helps the student reach a comfort level of what it's like to have fist coming their way. If you like I can show you videos of my Sifu coaching day one students sparring.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I guess it depends how you define sparring. To me, there's a competitive element even in very controlled sparring. You are trying to (hit me, throw me, clinch me, whatever) and I'm trying to stop you from doing it. How much can a first-day student learn from stepping into that. If you're including what has been referred to as 1-step sparring, then definitely. Free sparring, however, I just don't see the value of it day one, since the student doesn't have anything to learn from yet.

I have 2 female classmates who took Jow Ga for 1 year with no sparring. They both did all of the drills. Their first time sparring was earlier this year and it was no better than it would have been if the started a year earlier.

Free sparring provides a realistic reference that can be used to help visualize when doing forms. If you have never sparred or never been in a fight, the there's no way to accurately visualize an imaginary person attacking. Free sparring helps to build those reference points. I can train basketball by only doing drills and shooting the ball and dribbling. Non of that would be enough to prepare me to do well in an actual game. If I'm placed in a game then I'll have reference points in which to build my skills on.

Kung fu is like this where I'll explain a technique by saying "imagine someone is trying to punch your face." If the student has been punched at then they have a reference for what that looks like. That reference will then make it easier to understand the technique and how it will work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How much can a first-day student learn from stepping into that.

Here is an example.

- A new student comes and wants to learn MA from you.
- You tell him that you are going to use "single leg" to take him down.
- No matter how hard that he may try to avoid, you use your "single leg" to take him down 10 times in a role.

For the next 6 months, when you teach "single leg" to him, he will pay all his attention on your teaching. After he has faith in your "single leg", he will also have faith in the other techniques that you will teach him later. Your student will know that he won't waste his money or training time. At least he will learn good "single leg" from you if nothing else.

My University of Texas at Austin Chinese wrestling team had defeated the Ohio State University at Columbus Chinese wrestling team 2 years in a role (1983 and 1984).

To "spar/wrestle" on day one is like the "test drive" before you buy a new car. If you like it, you will buy it. If you don't, you will go to another car dealer.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I didn't want to get punched in the head when I was young, either. I make my living with my brain, and always have.

This is why when I get older, I have spent all my effort trying to develop some "anti-striking" strategies. As long as I can protect my head well, my body can still take "full contact" even with old age.

 

[wingchun100]

I think it depends on what the goal of the Sifu is, maybe. For example in the school that I used to attend, he wanted everyone to develop their techniques to the point where what they did "always" looked like wing chun because he talked about how people will train for years in Karate or Tae Kwon Do but then, when they spar, it looks like "generic kickboxing." (His term, not mine, hence the quotes.) So he wanted everyone to be a good "Wing Chun practitioner," to get to a decent level in Chi Sao before we started doing sparring. Now I go to a new school, and I have not asked him what he does other than Chi Sao because, in his eyes, I am still a new student even though I've been studying for a long time. I want to develop a stronger Sifu-Student relationship before I jump into all these questions. (I don't know why I feel I HAVE to do it that way, but it is what it is. I feel it is more respectful to wait a bit rather than to bombard him with questions only a few months in.)

 

[Herbie]

Thanks for the responses and the discussion. To Wingchun100, my former sifu's approach was similar to what you stated: he wanted their sparring to look like Wing Chun, so lots of reps and training before sparring. That's why I posted the question, to see if that's a WC thing, or just his approach. Sounds like opinions vary. Surprise!
Thanks again, everybody.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think it depends on what the goal of the Sifu is, maybe. For example in the school that I used to attend, he wanted everyone to develop their techniques to the point where what they did "always" looked like wing chun because he talked about how people will train for years in Karate or Tae Kwon Do but then, when they spar, it looks like "generic kickboxing." (His term, not mine, hence the quotes.) So he wanted everyone to be a good "Wing Chun practitioner," to get to a decent level in Chi Sao before we started doing sparring. Now I go to a new school, and I have not asked him what he does other than Chi Sao because, in his eyes, I am still a new student even though I've been studying for a long time. I want to develop a stronger Sifu-Student relationship before I jump into all these questions. (I don't know why I feel I HAVE to do it that way, but it is what it is. I feel it is more respectful to wait a bit rather than to bombard him with questions only a few months in.)

The generic kickboxing is often seen in people who do not practice technique during free sparring. If a person has the mindset of always having to win, then he or she will only use the techniques they are comfortable with so they can win or out do their opponent. The end result is that the student doesn't get beyond basic punching and kicking. In my opinion the worst part is claiming to train in an art and being a bad representation of the art, simply because the person didn't do any techniques from the art.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ That goes directly back to one of my points on the "Wing Chun Sparring" thread! Do you see sparring as a way to look for holes in your martial art training and therefore improve on your training? Or do you see sparring as an end in itself and your training is aimed at being able to win at sparring? In other words...is sparring just a phase of your overall training and meant to assist that training? Or is being good at sparring your main goal? These are two different mindsets and can lead to two very different results.

 

[JowGaWolf]

^^^^ That goes directly back to one of my points on the "Wing Chun Sparring" thread! Do you see sparring as a way to look for holes in your martial art training and therefore improve on your training? Or do you see sparring as an end in itself and your training is aimed at being able to win at sparring? In other words...is sparring just a phase of your overall training and meant to assist that training? Or is being good at sparring your main goal? These are two different mindsets and can lead to two very different results.

I see sparing as part of training that's required in order to understand how to apply techniques in a "real fight." Sparring allows me to grasp and better understand how people attack and how different systems approach fighting in the context of me being on the receiving end of their attacks. I always spar to learn and never to win. My sparring performance can vary from match to match depending on what techniques I'm trying to learn how to deploy. The more understanding I have of a technique, the better I look. If I'm learning how to apply a new technique then I look like a noob and eat a lot of punches. I'll keep eating those punches until I learn what I'm doing wrong. If I eat too many then I'll take a break from getting hit and go back to the drawing board to see what I'm missing or not understanding.

To give you an example: This video is from 2015 and I look like crap. This video is from 2014 and I look skilled in comparison. The truth is that my fighting skills were better in 2015 than in 2014. Those moves that I was doing in 2014 were learned to a high degree by 2015 and because of that, I wanted to use the sparring time to get better at some of the techniques that I wasn't good at. Now it's 2016 and I learned those techniques that I was trying in 2015. I was able to get so good with the techniques that I was doing in the 2014 video, that I'm afraid that my sparring partners from other systems will not able to get out of the way if I were to use them now. If they can partially block the technique then I'll throw it. If they can't block it at all then I won't use it because of safety issues.

Here's a video of me sparring called "This is How I Learn How to Do Kung Fu" You can see me try multiple times to apply various techniques. You'll also notice that my fighting style is different compared to the 2014 and 2015 videos.

Normally what people do is get comfortable with what they do in "2014" and still do the same thing in 2015, 2016, and they will do the same thing in 2017. This means they will never learn anything beyond that comfort zone. The first things that martial artist get comfortable with are basic kicks and punches and they never learn more because they are too busy trying to win and not trying to learn. I'm not saying that everyone is like this. but there are more that do spar to win than those who don't.

Or is being good at sparring your main goal

My only goal is to be a good representation of Jow Ga Kung Fu. I don't care if I win or lose because it's not important to me. I want people to easily recognize my kung fu when I spar. The reason why I don't care if I win or lose is because in order for me to be a good representation of Jow Ga Kung Fu, I'll need to be able to successfully apply the Jow Ga techniques I learn and use.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In other words...is sparring just a phase of your overall training and meant to assist that training?

If I didn't care about learning how to use Jow Ga Kung Fu in a fight then sparring would hold very little value to me. For me it's something that cannot be separated from my training because of the goal that I have set for myself.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's easy to fix the problem that "fighting doesn't look like training". The simplest solution is to force your students to use just 1 WC technique for the next 6 months and nothing else.

In WC for example, you can have a match that one can only win that round by using "Tan Da - block with one arm while punch with another arm". A round will stop after a valid "Tan Da" is executed". Test this for 15 rounds and whoever wins more than 7 rounds will be the winner.

If you have this kind of sparring for 6 months, after every students are good in "Tan Da", they will fight like WC for the rest of their life. After 6 months, you then move into a different WC technique (or principle).

I have used this method in wrestling. Instead of using "Tan Da", I used "head lock", "single leg", "under hook", "over hook", "bear hug", or ...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For adults and kids who are sparring for the first time, the only thing that Sifu wanted them to do were:
1. Move around - Moving around helped conditioning
2. Keep their hands up - This is the ultimate rule no mater the age or skill level. We here this even in professional fights
3. Make Mistakes - Mistakes during sparring are always welcome because it's the quickest way to know what a student needs to work on the most.

Non of these things require martial art skills. In addition not all students come in as a blank slate without any idea of how to spar. Some have the movement down because maybe they have a sibling that they horseplay with.

The other benefit of sparring is that it helps the student reach a comfort level of what it's like to have fist coming their way. If you like I can show you videos of my Sifu coaching day one students sparring.

Okay, that makes sense. I could see having some really soft sparring to let them get moving, let them get over the fear of the incoming fist a bit, and get a feel for what they can do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have 2 female classmates who took Jow Ga for 1 year with no sparring. They both did all of the drills. Their first time sparring was earlier this year and it was no better than it would have been if the started a year earlier.

Free sparring provides a realistic reference that can be used to help visualize when doing forms. If you have never sparred or never been in a fight, the there's no way to accurately visualize an imaginary person attacking. Free sparring helps to build those reference points. I can train basketball by only doing drills and shooting the ball and dribbling. Non of that would be enough to prepare me to do well in an actual game. If I'm placed in a game then I'll have reference points in which to build my skills on.

Kung fu is like this where I'll explain a technique by saying "imagine someone is trying to punch your face." If the student has been punched at then they have a reference for what that looks like. That reference will then make it easier to understand the technique and how it will work.

I can see that. I think our heavy use of one-steps (with increasing intensity of attack) helps with some of those things, but I can certainly see where sparring would give those reference points, and perhaps with less bias.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is an example.

- A new student comes and wants to learn MA from you.
- You tell him that you are going to use "single leg" to take him down.
- No matter how hard that he may try to avoid, you use your "single leg" to take him down 10 times in a role.

For the next 6 months, when you teach "single leg" to him, he will pay all his attention on your teaching. After he has faith in your "single leg", he will also have faith in the other techniques that you will teach him later. Your student will know that he won't waste his money or training time. At least he will learn good "single leg" from you if nothing else.

My University of Texas at Austin Chinese wrestling team had defeated the Ohio State University at Columbus Chinese wrestling team 2 years in a role (1983 and 1984).

To "spar/wrestle" on day one is like the "test drive" before you buy a new car. If you like it, you will buy it. If you don't, you will go to another car dealer.

I think this comes down more to how I use the term "sparring". It seems I use it more narrowly than most, and that colors my reading of posts that use the term.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think it depends on what the goal of the Sifu is, maybe. For example in the school that I used to attend, he wanted everyone to develop their techniques to the point where what they did "always" looked like wing chun because he talked about how people will train for years in Karate or Tae Kwon Do but then, when they spar, it looks like "generic kickboxing." (His term, not mine, hence the quotes.) So he wanted everyone to be a good "Wing Chun practitioner," to get to a decent level in Chi Sao before we started doing sparring. Now I go to a new school, and I have not asked him what he does other than Chi Sao because, in his eyes, I am still a new student even though I've been studying for a long time. I want to develop a stronger Sifu-Student relationship before I jump into all these questions. (I don't know why I feel I HAVE to do it that way, but it is what it is. I feel it is more respectful to wait a bit rather than to bombard him with questions only a few months in.)

Just a note on that last part - that depends a lot on the instructor. I know instructors who don't like students to question them until they get to advanced student ranks. I like questions from my students - even the challenging ones - because 1) it tells me THAT they are thinking, 2) it tells me WHAT they are thinking, and 3) it gets me thinking.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I can see that. I think our heavy use of one-steps (with increasing intensity of attack) helps with some of those things, but I can certainly see where sparring would give those reference points, and perhaps with less bias.

Keep in mind that that we spar to learn so there is never any pressure to win. If you watch some of the sparring videos on the website you will hear things like "sorry" if we think we injured or partner or you'll hear the advanced students give praise during sparring when a students gets a technique right or when they make an effort to do a technique even if they fail.
I'm not sure how common this is for other schools.

 

[anerlich]

I'm not sure how common this is for other schools.

I would hope it was common. Few other approaches make any sense.