When do you start sparring?

[Gerry Seymour]

The reason why I don't spar to win is because then you'll just stick with the techniques that will allow you to win. If the goal is to win, then why work on a technique that you aren't good at? If the goal is to win, then working on techniques that you aren't good at are just going to make you lose. This is why we often see martial artists revert back to basic kickboxing skills instead of using the other techniques within the system.

If you spar to learn then the focus is to learn how to use the techniques. If you spar to learn how to increase your ability to successfully execute various techniques, then right away you know that you'll fail often at the start, but as you become more familiar with the use of the technique you begin to become more successful with the technique. All of this only happens when you aren't trying to win.

After all why would you use a technique that you aren't good at if you are trying to win?

I think Drop Bear's explanation earlier fits with what you're saying. His point was what I'd term a philosophical one: within whatever limitations you put on yourself, you do your best to win. So, if I decide to defend myself only with my left hand (strong-side injury simulation), then I do everything I can to win within that limitation. The same goes for working within your style, as that's just another limitation you put on yourself...until it's no longer a limitation.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think Drop Bear's explanation earlier fits with what you're saying. His point was what I'd term a philosophical one: within whatever limitations you put on yourself, you do your best to win. So, if I decide to defend myself only with my left hand (strong-side injury simulation), then I do everything I can to win within that limitation. The same goes for working within your style, as that's just another limitation you put on yourself...until it's no longer a limitation.

Ok.that makes sense.

 

[wingchun100]

I think Drop Bear's explanation earlier fits with what you're saying. His point was what I'd term a philosophical one: within whatever limitations you put on yourself, you do your best to win. So, if I decide to defend myself only with my left hand (strong-side injury simulation), then I do everything I can to win within that limitation. The same goes for working within your style, as that's just another limitation you put on yourself...until it's no longer a limitation.

Obviously this means it will take you much longer than the person without such limitations to be any good, but it is still possible.

 

[wingchun100]

The reason why I don't spar to win is because then you'll just stick with the techniques that will allow you to win. If the goal is to win, then why work on a technique that you aren't good at? If the goal is to win, then working on techniques that you aren't good at are just going to make you lose. This is why we often see martial artists revert back to basic kickboxing skills instead of using the other techniques within the system.

If you spar to learn then the focus is to learn how to use the techniques. If you spar to learn how to increase your ability to successfully execute various techniques, then right away you know that you'll fail often at the start, but as you become more familiar with the use of the technique you begin to become more successful with the technique. All of this only happens when you aren't trying to win.

After all why would you use a technique that you aren't good at if you are trying to win?

Because you need to patch up those weak areas.

Let's say for example that a WC practitioner is not good at a technique known as biu sao, which is the most effective tool to use when someone on the street throws a wide "haymaker" type of hook. Instead this practitioner tries using a tan sao. From my own experience, tan sao will not work to block such a punch. Therefore if your biu sao is weak and you want to be able to stop that attack, then you NEED to work on that technique.

Just my humble opinion, of course. I do feel that each martial artist should work on whatever they naturally, instinctively do well in their art. After all, that is what helps them put their stamp on it and make the style "their own."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Obviously this means it will take you much longer than the person without such limitations to be any good, but it is still possible.

Actually, putting the limitation on yourself causes you to have to work in ways that you otherwise wouldn't and can help you progress faster. I've taken black belts and forced them to do entire classes using only one hand at a time. It changes their understanding of the techniques, forces them to do a better job using their body (instead of their arm strength) to steal balance, etc. Without that limitation, they use their sheer array of tools to hide some deficiencies.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because you need to patch up those weak areas.

Let's say for example that a WC practitioner is not good at a technique known as biu sao, which is the most effective tool to use when someone on the street throws a wide "haymaker" type of hook. Instead this practitioner tries using a tan sao. From my own experience, tan sao will not work to block such a punch. Therefore if your biu sao is weak and you want to be able to stop that attack, then you NEED to work on that technique.

Just my humble opinion, of course. I do feel that each martial artist should work on whatever they naturally, instinctively do well in their art. After all, that is what helps them put their stamp on it and make the style "their own."

Yes, and that fits with the discussion nicely. One way to get them to use their biu sao would be to take away tan sao during sparring. That limitation puts them at a disadvantage (I'm assuming they like tan sao because it works against other stuff, which they now have to find another way to defend), but it will force them to pay more attention to that weak biu sao (and probably to something else that helps fill the gap left by the prohibited tan sao).

 

[marques]

Actually, putting the limitation on yourself causes you to have to work in ways that you otherwise wouldn't and can help you progress faster. I've taken black belts and forced them to do entire classes using only one hand at a time. It changes their understanding of the techniques, forces them to do a better job using their body (instead of their arm strength) to steal balance, etc. Without that limitation, they use their sheer array of tools to hide some deficiencies.

Sorry, I didn't follow the discussion until this point, but I like it. And a clear example is Boxing vs Thai Boxing. A boxer is more likely to have good punches than a Thai boxer, just because the Thai boxer have more options/alternatives. I also limit myself in sparring if I feel my oponent is having enough, so it keeps challenging (interesting) for both.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I do feel that each martial artist should work on whatever they naturally, instinctively do well in their art.

this is the starting point of the training that I do with student's in sparring classes. We start off making sure the techniques that feel natural to us are solid. Then we start to add on some of the other techniques that are weaker or techniques that we don't know how to use.

The only difference from what I do and what gpseymour does is that I don't take anything away techniques or force the use of a technique. Sometimes the things I know how to do well can be used to set up and create opportunities to use the techniques that we don't know how to use well.