Not everyone appreciates the in-depth conversations that take place here.
Do you modify your Wing Chun when sparring?
- Thread starter geezer
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Not everyone appreciates the in-depth conversations that take place here.
Highlander
Green Belt
I did caught that part... really hit home. So much knowledge to be shared here
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
Thats a really good question, Let me see if i can find something that can kinda illustrates what im saying. But usually if its a sparring match with someone thats not trying to do chi sau. I change it up. I use my two wu sau gaurds up, and take a side stance. Now depending on your opponent. I would suggest freely moving. If your opponent is not with in arm bridge range no need to start setting up your chi sau reflexes.
I usually want to attack first to gain entry and control. So i walk up to opponent with my gaurds out. But i dont hold my guards stagnant, i move them back and forth to keep my opponent looking at them into get into range. The moving of the guards back and forth serves as distance manipulator. Once i am in striking range i start kicking while gaining a bridge by punching right down the middle if my opponent uses an arm to stop my punch i utilize chi sau sensitivity. If im wearing mma gloves i can grab his hard an lop da or jut day or pak da if he has guards out. While kicking his shins or knee below. If i think he might try to keep moving back i step on his foot and hold him there while striking. This strategy works for a non-aggressive opponent who is waiting back trying to time openings. I walk in slowly and calmly while rotating guard positions to keep my hands fluid but still guarding the center line. So if they try to give me a sneak attack i can intercept you need reflex time to in order to lift the knee for kicks or to pak or bil a jab or straight cross or intercept a hook.
There are three methods i utilize for gaining entry.
1. Common method walk in slowly to anticipate sneak attacks or sudden change in the oppoents guard or range or level.
2. If its smaller weaker opponent i rush fast with power and either slam their guards or kick their stance and start attacking and from there i set up bui ma, if they try to evade me or stomp the foot and hold them there unleashing elbows and punches and deflecting any return attacks, at this range i want to do more controlling their arms too
3. Friendly sparring match with friends with light contact, i wait for my friend to walk in and then i intercept or redirect and work more so on defending while trading techniques with one another.
Once our arm bridges clash is when i sink my chi, and make sure i utilize my wing chun footwork with my strikes. Moving the body as one. I wasn't able to find this video i was thinking of. But there are few guys out there that kinda of convey the first two. I dont recommend 3 unless its your friend or your sparring with your sifu...the third is only for learning purposes imho. If your trying to learn or trade techniques in a friendly matter but waiting for your opponent to attack you sets up stagnation and makes it harder for you to gain control because you start out on the Defensive. An then from there your trying to defend your way to being able to attack finally.
I have two videos below check them out
Check out the second video too
THERE ARE MORE VIDEOS I SEEN BUT THESE VIDEOS HAVE A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE HIGHLIGHTING THEIR DIFFERENT LINEAGES. i think this is a good way to show case different ways of gaining entry and sparring with wing chun. Not the video i wanted but its good to look at both and dissect it.
I usually want to attack first to gain entry and control. So i walk up to opponent with my gaurds out. But i dont hold my guards stagnant, i move them back and forth to keep my opponent looking at them into get into range. The moving of the guards back and forth serves as distance manipulator. Once i am in striking range i start kicking while gaining a bridge by punching right down the middle if my opponent uses an arm to stop my punch i utilize chi sau sensitivity. If im wearing mma gloves i can grab his hard an lop da or jut day or pak da if he has guards out. While kicking his shins or knee below. If i think he might try to keep moving back i step on his foot and hold him there while striking. This strategy works for a non-aggressive opponent who is waiting back trying to time openings. I walk in slowly and calmly while rotating guard positions to keep my hands fluid but still guarding the center line. So if they try to give me a sneak attack i can intercept you need reflex time to in order to lift the knee for kicks or to pak or bil a jab or straight cross or intercept a hook.
There are three methods i utilize for gaining entry.
1. Common method walk in slowly to anticipate sneak attacks or sudden change in the oppoents guard or range or level.
2. If its smaller weaker opponent i rush fast with power and either slam their guards or kick their stance and start attacking and from there i set up bui ma, if they try to evade me or stomp the foot and hold them there unleashing elbows and punches and deflecting any return attacks, at this range i want to do more controlling their arms too
3. Friendly sparring match with friends with light contact, i wait for my friend to walk in and then i intercept or redirect and work more so on defending while trading techniques with one another.
Once our arm bridges clash is when i sink my chi, and make sure i utilize my wing chun footwork with my strikes. Moving the body as one. I wasn't able to find this video i was thinking of. But there are few guys out there that kinda of convey the first two. I dont recommend 3 unless its your friend or your sparring with your sifu...the third is only for learning purposes imho. If your trying to learn or trade techniques in a friendly matter but waiting for your opponent to attack you sets up stagnation and makes it harder for you to gain control because you start out on the Defensive. An then from there your trying to defend your way to being able to attack finally.
I have two videos below check them out
Check out the second video too
THERE ARE MORE VIDEOS I SEEN BUT THESE VIDEOS HAVE A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE HIGHLIGHTING THEIR DIFFERENT LINEAGES. i think this is a good way to show case different ways of gaining entry and sparring with wing chun. Not the video i wanted but its good to look at both and dissect it.
Gweilo
Master Black Belt
Seems like a lot of straight lines and linear movement, what if you meet a counter attacker, who moves in a non linear way?
Martial D
Senior Master
There's a lot of videos on that too. They are generally quite short.
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
I free flow, stick close if possible and continuous strike them with what ever range their in. I can also play the counter game too. But its boring to me. I like to brawl. Basically if a person is a counter fighter, I use grabbing arm techniques to strike simultaneously. I also when close enough i step on the opponents toe if they are a person who likes to move in and out position. If i use stillness with a overly mobile opponent i wait for him to get into kicking range and i stomp kick his leg or check kick his shins while i use pak da consistently to clear his defenses as i strike simultaneously i may combine the use of lop da and jut da while kicking low to unsteady his balance. If he is too eager and shoots in i side step to sweet his front leg and attempt a closeline techinque. Its many variables. But this is what has worked against non-wing chun guys. Since that is all i had to spar in my town. I trained privately so i was never part of a big school my sparring buddies were boxers, kick boxers, TKD and muai thai guys when i was teen. I only had one friend who did wing chun and i brought him in with me.
When you fight eventually you have move in linear. Even Baquazhang guys have to fight linear. An if your trying to walk in a circle around me it leaves you open. When i attack its not going to be a single one handed attack im attacking with both hands. I striking and defending at the same time as entry technique bil da or pak da or jut da. An then once i gain contact you strike i intercept i begin to control you so you can't back out. I want to jam your space by causing you to play my game there you being pumpled with punches and kicks and arm grabs to stop you from moving if i dont want you too. Circular fighters are slower because they are using a straight line of attack. I experienced my first circular fighter when i had six months of wing chun. An it wasnt good, but after that i analyzed what i did wrong. I was stagnant i stood there waiting to counter instead of going on the offensive. An because i was sitting there cold waiting for him to feed me something to react. i was always on defensive and never could control him. From then on i stop using that hold stand with your stance an hold your guard out and started just attacking, if you counter, i counter your counter because im sensitive enough to feel your movements when we clinch. We also train outside range too so we practice intercepting from no contact. So our contact reflexes are spot on. Especially since i use to spar with non WC guys every day growing up. None of them wanted to bridge. But once they commit to striking you then there is the bridge.
When you fight eventually you have move in linear. Even Baquazhang guys have to fight linear. An if your trying to walk in a circle around me it leaves you open. When i attack its not going to be a single one handed attack im attacking with both hands. I striking and defending at the same time as entry technique bil da or pak da or jut da. An then once i gain contact you strike i intercept i begin to control you so you can't back out. I want to jam your space by causing you to play my game there you being pumpled with punches and kicks and arm grabs to stop you from moving if i dont want you too. Circular fighters are slower because they are using a straight line of attack. I experienced my first circular fighter when i had six months of wing chun. An it wasnt good, but after that i analyzed what i did wrong. I was stagnant i stood there waiting to counter instead of going on the offensive. An because i was sitting there cold waiting for him to feed me something to react. i was always on defensive and never could control him. From then on i stop using that hold stand with your stance an hold your guard out and started just attacking, if you counter, i counter your counter because im sensitive enough to feel your movements when we clinch. We also train outside range too so we practice intercepting from no contact. So our contact reflexes are spot on. Especially since i use to spar with non WC guys every day growing up. None of them wanted to bridge. But once they commit to striking you then there is the bridge.
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Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
Gweilo
Master Black Belt
I enjoyed the video, I liked how the WC guy grew into the fight, and finished it with a nice kick, also how he kept his form. However, in WC there is the common misconception, that a straight line always beats a curved line, whilst in theory this is true, in practice this only works in certain situations. I found the following short video on YouTube, which demonstrates my point, I would be interested in your opinion on the video, before I ask about the vulnerability of leg attacks, to the WC guy in your video.
Martial D
Senior Master
Sort of sure. In reverse.
Guy in the gi throws nothing but straight punches down the middle where no-gi guys hands are. The classic man/wu guard is quite effective if everything comes down the middle, especially if they are the sort of weak arm punches you see in most TMA.
jobo
Grandmaster
Yes, and he ( the karate)is trying to out punch someone with a considerably greater reach, and he going for head kicks which is where his arms are and he has no guard, kick low, bring the hand down and then hit him
Martial D
Senior Master
Yup. I worked with man/wu guard for thousands of hours, it's just irreparably problematic for dealing with anything that isn't also wing chun. If karate guy had an overhand right or a left hook that might have been a much shorter video.
What guard or guards do you use now?
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I notice the boxer has several inches of reach on the wing Chun guy. Even if their respective skill levels are equal, that reach gives the boxer a critical advantage. The video really shows nothing decisive.
Gweilo
Master Black Belt
I think by your own admission, " that reach gives the boxer a critical advantage" in this situation it did show something desisive. WC is excellent at close quarter fighting but can struggle with distance and non linear fighters, the video I posted was not to rubbish WC, but in response to Yoshiyahu's post, about he would back his opponent up, take control, or step on his opponents foot, how would a WC practioner achieve that against the boxer in the video, I would not of thought a good WC fighter would loose to every fighter who had a reach advantage, and countered with a curved over the top strike.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I don’t feel it showed anything with regard to boxing vs. wing Chun. It showed a fellow with a serious reach advantage can have an easier time of it. It showed a match between two people and does not indicate anything of boxing vs. wing Chun. This is one example only, not any kind of sample from which to extract further meaning.
I don’t feel wing Chun struggles outside of short range. I have never really understood how people even define short vs. long range in terms of hand techniques. Everyone has a limit to their reach, that much is true and is defined by their body size. But beyond that, technique is technique.
jobo
Grandmaster
most of these wc against xxx contests seem to have the wing chun guy at a size, weight, age didadvantage, on of the few exceptions being the vid above where the wc guy did well against a karate man,,
but all else being equal, you not going to win a punching match with a boxer, boxing has spent the last hundred years or so developing its technueqes, expecting an art that's stuck in the 1920s or when ever to come out on top is deluded. just as your not going to win a kicking match with a tkd man or a grappling contest with a wrestler, and that's equally true of quite a few arts
knocking over drunks or idiots however is well with in its remit
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Martial D
Senior Master
I like to keep my hands in cover, ie; back hand beside the jaw, forward hand 6 inches or so forward and to the side of the other jaw.(boxers guard).
This way I am covered if I don't happen to be so fast I can react and move my arms for every punch(which is never), but I can still use my WC repertoire (pac/tan/stick/etc) with no real drawbacks.
