Do you claim any religious faith? / How are you on sharing?

[Jenna]

Asatru.

For those who don't know what that is, it's Norse polytheism, also known as Heathenism. Some practicioners try to practice as closely as possible to historical evidence, whereas I'm more in the camp of "what would it be like today if there had been no Christianity?"

What I like about it is, there is no salvation. Humans don't need it. We are fine as we are. The idea is to be the type of person the gods would want to hang out with. We have no sacred scriptures that we consider to be divinely inspired. We know the sagas and eddas are myths. They are illustrations of how our forefathers thought about some religious issues. Since there are multiple deities, we are not so fond of damning others for their beliefs, since they could be as "right" as ours. People should worship (or not) as they see fit. As long as they don't hinder me in mine. We do not turn the other cheek. There is no commandment to worship (or even like) the gods. That's the individual's choice. The one thing a Heathen must never do is disrespect the ancestors, either his own or those of others.

Best regards,

-Mark

That is very interesting Mark, thank you for sharing your guiding beliefs and principles. Do you know how far back these practices stretch? It sounds like a very ancient form of philosophy and thought organisation. Do you feel accompanied by your beliefs? Or are you in some ways left to your own devices? And what guidance do you have to, as you say, live to be the type of person the gods would want to hang out with? How do you or followers of Heathenism discern what kind of person the gods would want to hang out with if there are no writings to that effect? I am interested to understand. Thank you very much for your contribution.

I offer ramblings on this. Nothing worth thanks or response I think.

I have to say I believe in God, but have no idea why. I'm inclined to think it has more to do with years of ingraining and less to do with any practical reason, which is an essential element for me to process. There are just too many practical reasons denying the existence of a single superior entity. But still I do. Go figure.

It completely evades me as to why people would argue about, much less kill for, a religion or religious point of view, yet throughout history, it's probably the number one reason for premature death of men, and yet through thousands of years of existence, we have not "evolved" one bit. Because I don't really care what others believe, I just can't see myself getting upset by their religious views. It's totally lost on me. Go in peace. Really. So I ask myself why did I read though, and then respond to this entire thread. Because though it's not worth much, it offers a different (if not cloudy) perspective I suppose.

I have great respect for those who are firm in their beliefs. Even jealous at times I think.

It annoys the crap out of me when people "praise God" or "praise Allah" or whoever when they experience a moment of good fortune like winning a game or something equally trivial in matters of the universe. I'm pretty sure if there is an almighty entity, he/she/it has bigger issues. To assume "it's all about us" is simple arrogance. Hey! God created 14,000 new galaxies today and still found time to make sure I won a free coke in the McDonald's scratch off! Praise God! I want to vomit.

I always enjoy listening to the Dalai Lama, though Buddhism has never called me. He always makes me happy and I would love to see through his eyes just once.

I do not practice a religion. In days gone by, I would tell people i'm not religious, I'm a Christian. I don't want people praying for me. I'm not broken; I'm in transit. To where, I have no idea, but I know there's a place for me. Do not solicit me with your religion, I'll shut right down. Your path is not mine. It's the only thing about religion that I am sure about. At least today.

Well I am grateful to have your opinions and thoughts, they are valid and worthwhile and I appreciate you sharing here. It is beyond me also why there is so much antipathy between followers of faiths, most of which have peace at their core. Perhaps that is a reflection of a lack of internalisation of those core values? I am grateful that you read through this thread and if it has given you cause to think of your own motivations then that must be good also. To assume as you say, it is all about us, is a very egocentric view of events. If we did not have that egocentric view of events I think events would not cause us so much annoyance or disruption when they are unfavourable. Still, we have only our own perceptions, that is why I think it is enlightening to experience the view of others And I wonder has Buddhism never called you or have you simply not been available to receive that call? To me religions are a marketing vehicle for a relationship with God and but then to me there is only one God by many names over many traditions. I think that is the truest secret veiled by the group-minded, factionalist, controlling writings of Man. For me then the question of which religion is not important. The only question that is important is would I value a relationship with God. Thank you again for posting, I am grateful to you.

I am a Christian, have been since my early teens. Looked at a lot of other "religions" but realized I needed a relationship with God and not "religion"! I currently serve as the assistant pastor at Trinity Baptist In Downey, Ca and love every day I get to serve hurting and lost people!

Thank you for this. I can appreciate your viewpoint. I think sometimes it is necessary to cut through any potentially manmade dogma to reach a purer relationship with God. Would you mind if I asked you do you see any themes that would join disparate religious viewpoints or is it a case of those various minds and cultures never meeting? How would you like to see the people of the earth in a perfect setting? Thank you again for sharing your thoughts.

I like the imagery. Has a bit of a 'Native American' vibe to it I think, Apache-ish maybe.

I have faith in my friends, faith in myself. In Gods, not so much. I see too much suffering of innocents to believe the Gods care too much about mundane things.

With the buffet idea, I try everything, but I have my favorites. I grew up in a Christian family, so my 'core' is 'tainted'/'imprinted' with those values. Just like having grown up with NY-Polish tastes, I find the food of other places 'different', sometimes extremely so. I think comparing religions to foods is apt. Take cheese for example. NY and Wisconsin are famous for their cheeses, as is Italy. But to a desert bushman in Africa, it's disgusting. To eat spoiled milk? Yuk! Because that's what cheese is...old spoiled milk thats fermented. (oversimplification). Comparing some religions is like talking cheese with someone who has a cultural dislike to it.

By the same token, the art comparison is also fitting. Some go the 'dabble, mix and match route'. Others focus intently on 1.
Both are valid, both work. Just different approaches for different folks.

I'm an expert in web design, photography, photoshop and complaining about the TSA.
In all other things, I'm but a learner.

The 'shiny' I find is the common threads. Most religions exist for guide you. To give you rules to live by. To offer explanations for 'things that go bump in the night'. To give hope that there's 'more' than what we have. To support and console you during trying times. That's the 'shiny' I see. I think too much to 'believe' in the 'superstition'. For all my prayer, I've never heard a reply. Despite my 'logic' sometimes I do pray. Maybe I got answers but am too hard of hearing, or heart, to hear them. Dunno.

But I've never felt Gods presence in a church. Ever. I felt it walking in the woods, alone, listening to the birds. Look at my nature shots....you'll see God in there.

And I say God, I might say Gods, I might say Goddess. It's all interchangeable as I don't think we can see deity, except in the corner of our eyes when we least expect it.

And I mock it all, religiously as it were. Because I think any being that could create all this wonder, all this diversity, all this magnificence, has to have a sense of humor. I think we're proof of that warped sense of humor. Because if I'm wrong, the world would be a lot less pleasant for a lot more of us, and we wouldn't be here having this discussion.

I might be right, I might be wrong. Maybe the Jews are right after all....or maybe the Babylonians they took half their scripture from were right, or maybe the Sumatrians who the Babylonians stole from were....I'll find out when I die. Until then, I wander, sample, taste, and experience as much as I can.

Make sense?

I think native American peoples have a very steadfast system of belief in deities. I think it is a very serene way of grounding yet with the capacity to completely liberate. And but you have faith in other things besides God(s)? Is it the case that we put our faith wherever we feel it will be most secure? I think you have good fortune with you to have friends that are solid and a level of self-reliance that is serving you well. I understand how you can trust a faith in these things. I think that suffering of innocents is a very difficult idea to rationalise. I can say that much suffering is caused by Man and then you can argue yes and but God can intervene to stop it. You can say that a little newborn has a heart condition that means she cannot thrive for more than a few days and you know my faith would give me no words except useless platitude. I think we like to have answers. That is our nature and that is our culture and our society. Everything is pinned down neatly. Every phenomena is explainable. And yet that is the essence of faith to believe in what is not proven; it is to believe in what can be felt and what can be known (of the unknown) with assurance, as paradoxical as that is. I believe this is why you, and many others, have faith in your friends and yourself because like the rest of us, you are seeking a place for assurance that you can trust in the outcomes of future events? I will not preach.

I agree with your food analogy and but I think religion is not God just as particular cuisines in their variants are not the same as nourishment. You can come to God through religion or you can come to God without religion. You can gan nourishment by a certain Polish-NY cuisine (I would love to know what that is btw ) or you can gain nourishment by going into your garden and eating leaves, shrooms and berries. Or killing a rabbit whichever suits your palate.

Again, it is not for me to make up a mind. You have considerably more experience with these things than me, that is obvious. And you are an expert in certain disciplines. You have stuck with these things and become proficient at them. There is a reason you have done this. It is because there is a perception of gain for you from these things, whether that is enjoyment, happiness, status, financial reward, or whatever that might be. I think at times though, we can feel gratified by our activities and expertises without realising that what we are seeking through these is not only happiness or financial reward etc. and but it is in a wider context, meaning and validation for our own existence. I think that is a very big idea to contemplate. I have noticed lately that some celebrity people are so fancy and famous and enamoured of theirselves that they feel validation by the rest of the world. I think these are the people that are hit hardest when they realise that it is all a sham. That they can be dropped in a finger click and that realisation puts them towards substances and psychoses. My point is that we are all seeking validation for our own existence, sometimes we find it through our expertises, our loves, our families and friends and wealth and but those are fickle things and apt to vanishing. As a child of God I believe you are automatically validated.

And for all your prayer you have never heard a reply? God has never heard your prayer and has never once given to you what you required? You have nothing to be happy for? I am sorry if that is the case. Life is not perfect, things could always be better. That none of your prayers have been answered, I cannot doubt if you say. I would only wonder that if you seized the records of your praying and re-examined them with the mind of a prosecution defence that perhaps evidence to the contrary might turn up. I do not know. Perhaps not.

Does God have a sense of humour? I believe that every day when I wake up and look at my hair in the mirror

Is god trying to tell you something in all your travels through faith, Bob? I do not know. Seek and ye shall find it is true. I have often sought my car keys in every place, under piles of socks (not mine! I am the tidier) and pizza (not mine, there is only one person in the flat likes pineapple and it is not me!) and when all along the keys are on the hall table - of course I usually only discover that the keys where there under my nose after I have come home from standing all day on the sweaty tube amongst people with dandruff and garlic breath as if they feared a imminent vampyre invasion. And who would protect them from THAT, huh? Not garlic! And certainly not Keanu Reeves.

I haven’t read through all the proceeding pages, but I’ve read enough to see the path this thread is taking. An adult discussion on a subject that can be volatile, nice to see.

I was christened Church of Ireland, but being six months old, I likely didn’t protest my objections too loudly. I’m sure I was happy to be dry, well feed and well rested, kinda like how I feel these days!! It’s odd, I see the CofI as part of my heritage, part of where my family comes from, part of my family history, it is a part of who I am. Though today, and for the past, 30+ years I have identified myself as an atheist.

I am also a libertarian, as such I want to leave people alone, in return, I also wish to be left alone. If people want to believe in a religion, have fun with that. The problems in my eyes start arising when people let their children die because they refuse medical treatment for them, push their beliefs, (even lack of beliefs), on others, want tax breaks because they believe in X and attend X church. Everyone has to journey down a specific path in life, it’s up to you to sit back and take stock of the path you have chosen, if it’s religion, fine, if it’s not religion, fine, just start down that path with your eyes open. If you find you’ve chosen the wrong path, back up, and take another one, there is no correct way, just leave everyone else alone to walk down the path they have so chosen. ( Yes it’s much more complicated than this, but I’m feeling metaphysical today!)

Thank you for sharing these things Ken. I had friends who were originally CoI. I think it is a denomination with much tradition and paraphernalia to the extent that I felt they spent a deal of time wrangling with the expectations of the church and almost missed what was at the core. That is just my opinion.

I agree with you that religion is often a self-appointed arbiter of moral righteousness. I do not believe that fits with our society as it is. I think religion in all its vehement variants is operating on very much the back-foot now and acts aggressively like any cornered fighter would. I think this is a self-condemning state of affairs. For me, I wish the central values of faith were put on display, rather than the competing doctrines of religion forced upon everyone. I think that is no way to win hearts and minds. I cannot disagree with your viewpoint. I like that you are feeling metaphysical. If you can relate the metaphysical to the grounded mundanities of our day to day reality then that will help us all to move in the right direction I think we need a measure of both, do you not? We live as corporeal bags of meat. Yet we have a capacity to think in ways that seem to almost deny that corporeal existence as "the only thing there is". I do not know if you ever feel that way? I appreciate your contribution, thank you very much.

No coercion, dear lady :bows:. I sometimes speak of what I should not but I am seldom having my arm twisted when I do so .

Again, you are preceptive when you say that there is an awkwardness that arises from what I am convinced is true and what my father would have me believe (and how 'mule-headed', to use the American phrase, that can make me at times on this subject).

As to how I came to determine Atheism was the stance descriptive of my view of the universe; well, until very few years ago I have consistently titled myself as Agnostic. There was nothing to suggest that there was a creator deity but likewise nothing that explicitly precluded there being one either. As our knowledge increases, the space available for what is sometimes referred to as "The God of the Gaps" shrinks. I am more convinced now than I have ever been that the evolution of both the magnificent universe and the magnificent brain that sits inside our skulls are being explained to such a satisfactory extent that the requirement for a supernatural component is diminished to close to zero.

As to my fathers motivation, it is altruistic in that he truly believes I am condemning myself by my rejection of God and he seeks to 'save' me. What he has never come to see is that, if the God he believes in is so small minded as to punish me for non-belief in an environment where there is no evidence of his existence, then, even if such a deity existed, I would withhold my veneration from it.

Ah you are as complex as I had imagined!! and but thank you for sharing these things, I am grateful to be able to bear witness. And I can understand that you have gradually switched your former view of God, through agnosticism (which I often think is the only logical truth) to atheism. That makes sense. In my experience I think you are far from alone in this pattern of thought. Again I would not seek to argue with that as that would be facile and presumptuous. I am just grateful to understand. Thank you.

And I am sorry that you are subjected to awkwardness. Do you think there are any areas of intersection between your worldview and that of your father? You are very logical and methodical I think, no? And so to determine the common ground upon which you can both stand I think is not beyond your skill. I am glad you can see his altrusim. I know sometimes as parents we act in our own interest and not that of our children. In this case I am happy that your father has your back even if he is not able to synchronise with you on your wavelength. I wonder can I ask what for you Suke would be the best possible outcome in your opinion between you two? If you could wave a magick wand I mean Thank you again my friend.

My mom wanted to start taking me to church when I was five. My dad told her, "Bring him to a different church each week and let him decide where he wants to go." So she did. Each week we would go to a different place of worship. A Synagogue one week, a Catholic church the next, a Protestant, Baptist, etc etc. This went on for two years. It was a lot of fun for a little kid. They were all nice places and the people were nice to us. A lot of the places had really neat windows.
Then, I decided to go with the faith that all the other little kids I hung around with belonged to. But I felt at home in any place of worship so sometimes I went to other places.

I've found that religions are somewhat similar to Karate schools. The other guy is always the infidel.

Wow, what a progressive family experience you had. I am impressed with the openness that your parents displayed in matters of your religious education. I think that is wonderful and quite rare in my experience at least. I think that you felt at home in any place of worship rather than being happier without any of them is intriguing as well. And you settled for the one that your pals attended. And has that changed since can I ask?

Karate schools have a job of differentiation I think, otherwise custom from one dojo could waft to another dojo and the owner would suffer. They make theirselves and their offerings different to cater for different needs and tastes and "ways". Yet where you to spar with another karateka from an infidel dojo, perhaps you would hug or at least shake hands in the spirit of camaraderie realising you are both after the same goal Thank you for sharing these thoughts and experiences. I am grateful to you.

I couldn't say, perhaps its just closed mindedness on both sides. For example though I am a Christian I often read the works about the Tao. Zen is appealing to me. Many of my Christian brethren would say some pretty rotten stuff about my interest. However I can find tons of passages in the Bible that are very Zen!

Plenty of horrors have been done in the name of Christianity such as baptism by the sword. One thing that separates us from many other religions is we feel that Jesus is literally the only way to heaven. It automatically excludes all other paths. I feel we should be tolerant of others and their ways but for a couple of thousand years most Christian sects look on all other ideas with disregard. In fact sometimes we turn on each other such as Protestant v.s. Catholic violence. On the whole, not a very tolerant group.

I am a Protestant who studies Zen and attends a Catholic College. The world takes all kinds of people and I believe that God and Jesus loves them all.

I am sorry that some of your brethren are disparaging of your interest in learning. I think at times that is exactly as you say, closed minded. I think it is interesting to me that you have found similarities between biblical texts and Zen passages. I think often the significance of these shared themes is ignored per the dictates of our own faiths. That is puzzling to me.

Regarding tolerance, yes I have seen religious intolerance even within Christianity. As people do we like to differentiate? Do we differentiate more than we seek commonality? Ultimately are we not all human seeking to find meaning for ourselves? That is my position anyway. And but that is to be negative I think. For me if I am to acknowledge the negative things then I must at least also acknowledge the good things and not take those for granted. As long as I am still around and able to type, today is a good day I hope you are well in your part of the world. It is sunny here. And hot! In March that is rare. I like the heat and the sunshine. Tell me how you are today, yes?

It is my personal belief, yes. Its in the third person because Im not currently in a situation wherein I am aligned to a cause in such a way as to breed determination. A lesser reflection of this would be, lets say, Football. World Championships, winner takes all. One team is at a slight disadvantage from the previous match. They wont be discouraged, Theyll be motivated like none other. Like I said after, I believe that We can neither confirm nor deny any given faith, so I choose to believe that its all possible, and that since theres so many faiths to choose from, I may as well praise Odin and call it a day

Dear cyriacus, I am shamed to admit to you that your replies reflect my lack of understanding. Am I correct in saying that you adopt a faith whenever you feel some external impetus (perhaps unfavourable) in your life? I understand if that is true. And that seems as valid a faith as any in my eyes. And you adopt whichever faith you feel suits the task? Is this correct? You have no static faith? I am interested in learning how faith works for you that is why I am asking I hope you are well today.

To say I'm an atheist would imply that I really care enough to have that belief. I'm not religious... at all. I have gone to churches, and I've studied and know a little about most religions. I've read most of the religious books and enjoy them. I think that the philosophy of religions are interesting and respect everyone's rights to their beliefs.

I don't hesitate to share with people that I'm not a xtian and I don't believe it's ever been an issue for me. either I've never had a problem with it, or I'm too oblivious to notice.

Steve, you sound happy and content. I think there is no reason why you would need to have a belief in any god. I appreciate your tolerant approach to faith. Can I ask please, do you feel your tolerance has ever been taken advantage of? I am grateful to have your opinion and thoughts. Thank you again.

Jenna, when you ask so nicely how could anyone refuse? I`m a Mormon. The actual name of the church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", but everyone usually just calls us Mormons.

I converted when I was 21, and I`m 45 now. I`ve never been shy about sharing my beliefs, but I do tend to let other people bring it up first. I like there to be a comfortable exchange of ideas with someone who`s interested instead of feeling like I`m forcing my beliefs on others who could care less. And since I looked at a lot of faiths when I was young and searching, I really enjoy hearing what other people believe.

I`d be happy to answer any questions anyone had for me, either in public or in private. I have to ask though that you remember I`m only human. I`m not the best exaample of my faith and I`d hate to think that someone was judging the church based on my behavior.

Thank you David43515, I am happy to hear about your faith. I spent some time as a tourist in Salt Lake City (actually more time than I had bargained for and ended up in LDS Hospital lol) and but I had a lovely conversation with two lovely young people at the Temple there and I am glad you are not shy about sharing your beliefs. As has been mentioned, there are stigmas and prejudices around all faiths and but we cannot control what other people think. All we can do is conduct ourselves the way we feel is best. And can I ask how your faith shapes your life in a positive way? I think that is what I was hoping to learn when I started the thread and but I am terrible for digressing. It is because I am more interested in connecting than sticking to topic. I would be interested to hear how belonging to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is helping you be the best person you can be And you are currently in Japan also? And does that have an impact upon your freedom to express your faith? Thank you again for your time and for your contribution.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Makes as good a reason as anything else I think. We want comfort, and we're tangible beings. It's hard to 'trust' the intangible sometimes.

I agree with your food analogy and but I think religion is not God just as particular cuisines in their variants are not the same as nourishment. You can come to God through religion or you can come to God without religion. You can gan nourishment by a certain Polish-NY cuisine (I would love to know what that is btw ) or you can gain nourishment by going into your garden and eating leaves, shrooms and berries. Or killing a rabbit whichever suits your palate.

What I call "Polish-NY" is traditional Polish food, Americanized by immigrants and passed down over the decades. Buffalo's got a heavy Pole influence (I swear half our streets are Polish named), and my section is heavy Polish and Irish. So it's a lot of beers, sausages, foods I can't pronounce that are high-fat, and oh so bad for you but oh so delicious.

Again, it is not for me to make up a mind. You have considerably more experience with these things than me, that is obvious. And you are an expert in certain disciplines. You have stuck with these things and become proficient at them. There is a reason you have done this. It is because there is a perception of gain for you from these things, whether that is enjoyment, happiness, status, financial reward, or whatever that might be. I think at times though, we can feel gratified by our activities and expertises without realising that what we are seeking through these is not only happiness or financial reward etc. and but it is in a wider context, meaning and validation for our own existence. I think that is a very big idea to contemplate. I have noticed lately that some celebrity people are so fancy and famous and enamoured of theirselves that they feel validation by the rest of the world. I think these are the people that are hit hardest when they realise that it is all a sham. That they can be dropped in a finger click and that realisation puts them towards substances and psychoses. My point is that we are all seeking validation for our own existence, sometimes we find it through our expertises, our loves, our families and friends and wealth and but those are fickle things and apt to vanishing. As a child of God I believe you are automatically validated.

I am but a speck of dust lost in time. When I am gone, I'm gone. My goal is to touch as many people, to experience as much as I can, before I fade away. MT allows me to touch people I may never meet in person. I hope that when I'm gone it survives...that will be a form of immortality for me I suppose.

And for all your prayer you have never heard a reply? God has never heard your prayer and has never once given to you what you required? You have nothing to be happy for? I am sorry if that is the case. Life is not perfect, things could always be better. That none of your prayers have been answered, I cannot doubt if you say. I would only wonder that if you seized the records of your praying and re-examined them with the mind of a prosecution defence that perhaps evidence to the contrary might turn up. I do not know. Perhaps not.

I don't know if God heard me, only that I didn't hear a reply, or if I did understand I was hearing it. I'm a little deaf in my left ear.
As to happy... I'm often not. Sometimes I'm content. Longest was about 2 hours while standing on the bow of a cruise ship with 70 mph winds hitting me. It just felt, "Good". Hard to explain it. Right now, I'm not 'unhappy', but wouldn't rate myself 'happy' either, just 'am'.

Does God have a sense of humour? I believe that every day when I wake up and look at my hair in the mirror

Is god trying to tell you something in all your travels through faith, Bob? I do not know. Seek and ye shall find it is true. I have often sought my car keys in every place, under piles of socks (not mine! I am the tidier) and pizza (not mine, there is only one person in the flat likes pineapple and it is not me!) and when all along the keys are on the hall table - of course I usually only discover that the keys where there under my nose after I have come home from standing all day on the sweaty tube amongst people with dandruff and garlic breath as if they feared a imminent vampyre invasion. And who would protect them from THAT, huh? Not garlic! And certainly not Keanu Reeves.

I think we're supposed to seek more. Though not from Mr. Reeves. But from ourselves. Even if we focus on 1 faith, we should seek to understand it more, to study it, to explore it, to experience it. It's more than an hour a week playing 'recite it back' in a special building....which I suppose can also be said about martial arts classes huh?

And, that's not knocking any of the faiths out there. I've talked, argued, and laughed with many who have dug deeper and found comfort and answers in their faiths, where I found nothing. We all see though different eyes, and stomachs, which is why pizza can have fruit on it, but I prefer mine with fungus and pepperoni.

 

[seasoned]

People do not save people. There are certain times in our life where we are given opportunities to share out faith, but I don't feel we should wear our faith on out sleeve, so to speak.

I am a Christian, there for, I fall into the ranks of the most misunderstood. My choice is to live my life as a testimony to my faith, but I don't feel it is my job to save the world.


With that said, I accepted the Lord as my personal savior, was baptized by immersion, came out of the water expecting to be a changed person, nope, I was still me. It took me time to realize that these were just symbolic acts, to point me inward, to evaluate me as a person.

Since I have spent 3/4 of my life as a martial artist, I tend to gage life the same way. We start out as white belts, some never get past that stage. There are some that do by rank alone, but lack depth.

As a white belt we sometimes run around trying to explain our art, but fall short when challenged by inquisitive minds. Martial Arts as with life, takes time to mature into, and there lies the connection with a Christian walk.

Martial Arts as with Christianity, is not for everyone, but when given the opportunity to share, I feel lives can be changed.

 

[Jenna]

Makes as good a reason as anything else I think. We want comfort, and we're tangible beings. It's hard to 'trust' the intangible sometimes.



What I call "Polish-NY" is traditional Polish food, Americanized by immigrants and passed down over the decades. Buffalo's got a heavy Pole influence (I swear half our streets are Polish named), and my section is heavy Polish and Irish. So it's a lot of beers, sausages, foods I can't pronounce that are high-fat, and oh so bad for you but oh so delicious.




I am but a speck of dust lost in time. When I am gone, I'm gone. My goal is to touch as many people, to experience as much as I can, before I fade away. MT allows me to touch people I may never meet in person. I hope that when I'm gone it survives...that will be a form of immortality for me I suppose.



I don't know if God heard me, only that I didn't hear a reply, or if I did understand I was hearing it. I'm a little deaf in my left ear.
As to happy... I'm often not. Sometimes I'm content. Longest was about 2 hours while standing on the bow of a cruise ship with 70 mph winds hitting me. It just felt, "Good". Hard to explain it. Right now, I'm not 'unhappy', but wouldn't rate myself 'happy' either, just 'am'.



I think we're supposed to seek more. Though not from Mr. Reeves. But from ourselves. Even if we focus on 1 faith, we should seek to understand it more, to study it, to explore it, to experience it. It's more than an hour a week playing 'recite it back' in a special building....which I suppose can also be said about martial arts classes huh?

And, that's not knocking any of the faiths out there. I've talked, argued, and laughed with many who have dug deeper and found comfort and answers in their faiths, where I found nothing. We all see though different eyes, and stomachs, which is why pizza can have fruit on it, but I prefer mine with fungus and pepperoni.

I agree that it is difficult to trust the intangible. I guess that faith is learning to discern what is truly intangible (the philosophy of religion is intangible) from what is tangible (that has verifiable effect perhaps?) Having not found any tangible effect of God, I appreciate that God is not trustworthy under that lens. Ah yes Polish food as modified by the NYers, I understand. There is some wholesome fare from Poland I think and but most of it is what I would describe as hearty I am glad you enjoy a little decadence I have a similar fondness that you have described in the speedboat. I like speed. For me it is a catharsis to be moving. I guess that suggests I have some need for catharsis. Perhaps at times. Loud music that would rattle a stuttering heart works for me also I think the martial arts analogies do work as you have described. I am happy about that. I think if one is to stick with one art as a major then yes it is imperative to dig. If my shihan were to have said, no, stop deconstructing everything to find the roots of it then I would not have learned what I wanted to know. For someone to suggest it is not good to question then either that person is insecure in their subject or they are aware at a deeper level that the entire subject is based upon a flawed premise. I think digging is good. I think when I dig I need to know in advance what exactly I am digging for. Otherwise I will gain nothing except a strong back a large triceps I think it is important when I am digging that I also know I am digging in the right place so I do not dig up a water main. I am glad you are digging. If you ever need another shovel or pick axe to get through something that is compacted. Let me know And I would agree that no fruit should be on pizzas because that is heresy against the great master of pizzas, except they have changed the rules and make out that tomatoes are fruits too.. pffft.. Not in my reckoning. Fungus all the way.. except if it is the kind that live on feet that needs medicated ewww.. Enjoy your pizza

 

[Tez3]

I don't think atheists are lost, I don't think any other religion is the 'wrong' one and I don't want to convert anyone quite the opposite, ask me and I'll tell you to find your own way don't copy mine. I don't understand this wanting to 'share' all the time, my preferred option is mind your own business to be honest. I was told by a Rabbi long long time ago that religion is like petrol (gas to the Americans), lots of different brands but it all does the same job. Prayers, services, hymn singing is for our benefit not G-ds, we gain comfort from rituals, in a changing world we have something that doesn't change. Free will has always been granted as has forgiveness, we've been given the rules for living a good life but we've also been given the free will to chose how we live our lives. I think this is something that missing from many Christian faiths who abandoned their essentially Jewish beginnings especially as politics took over from the simple faith driven religion it started out as. Women used to have a big role, with female bishops and female disciples, that got quickly stopped and only now, a couple of thousand years later, are they debating whether to allow female bishops. Power became a big thing with Popes and Holy Roman Emperors commanding armies etc. Wars are fought in the name of religion but it's in name only, the real reasons are for wealth, land and power. If there were no religions we'd have the same wars but under different banners.

We have a many different thoughts of belief in Judaism, questioning things is encouraged, arguing is encouraged so Christian faiths make no difference to us if only they'd leave us alone. Sikhs do, Hindus do, Buddhists do even Muslim do as far as faith is concerned and we leave them alone. My shift partner is Hindu, he has Christians targeting him to convert as well, they come round his door try to invite themselves in and generally partonise him. This is the ones who proclaim themselves 'born again', the established churches these days, the RC and C of E etc, the Methodists etc leave us alone but even they are targeted by these people! One C of E Canon I know says he has them haranging him as though he weren't a Christian! I guess he's not the 'right' sort of Christian!

Some Christians I will praise highly and can't say enough good things about are the military padres, they never ever push their religion, they are a sympathetic ear for any soldier, they dispense cups of tea and wordless comfort to many a troubled person. They work on the front line and are there for everyone, they don't convert but comfort and stengthen people. They are a priceless resource.

I also have a huge amount of time for Quakers who to me are fine and good people. Always happy to be with them, who put their money where their mouths are and do some actual practical good for people instead of knocking on doors annoy them.

 

[Instructor]

I personally don't think that life is necessarily about being happy. I think we exist for a reason but that reason is different for everybody. Some of the people I look up to most in the Bible suffered most of their lives yet they are heroes. I love it when I am happy but sometimes sorrow and pain can teach you important lessons.

BTW the weather is beautiful here, the bees are buzzing.

 

[cdunn]

I can see no god but the gods that man makes for himself, but I don't generally say too much about it in life. It's just net required.

I have no particular problem with others believing as they wish, however, as a humanist, I find I have a positive duty to fight back whenever people of faith propose laws or policies that are actively harmful to people, to society, and the world, especially when they are based on facts that aren't.

And Bill ... An 'atheist get-together' tends to be about:
A: Building a peer network for personal support. The amount of that you need probably depends on how much people you would otherwise expect to rely on for emotional support tell you you're damned to hell.
B: Discussion of science, ethics, humanism. (Unfortunately often set against the backdrop of our Christian-soaked society).
C: As a continuation of B: Discussing how to make the world a better place.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't think atheists are lost, I don't think any other religion is the 'wrong' one and I don't want to convert anyone quite the opposite, ask me and I'll tell you to find your own way don't copy mine.

Some friends of mine who converted to Judaism were discouraged at every step along the path; they had to fight to get in. So it's kind of a different mindset. I get it; I'm not saying it's wrong. Heck, the Marines are the same way. You have to prove yourself to us, not the other way around.

Christianity has a problem in that its teachings require Christians to share the 'Good News' of Christ with others, to witness in public and to proselytize. Some branches of Christianity take it more seriously than others, and some individuals take it more seriously than others.

And it can be a problem in the sense that people don't particularly care to be preached to, or to have strangers knocking at their door and handing out literature and trying to convert them. I get that too; I don't like it either (and I don't proselytize, even though I am supposed to witness, like all Catholics).

However, we also have that pesky First Amendment in the USA. Along with ensuring that there is separation between Church and State (as it has come to interpreted), it also prevents the government from infringing on freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Which means, like it or not, people can knock on your door and try to preach to you. Part of living in a free society; you have to put up with being annoyed from time to time (in the USA, that is).

As to atheists, I also do not think they are lost. I have no more idea what is going on than they do. I choose to believe, but I'm well aware that my choices could and probably are incorrect in many minor or major details; perhaps even completely wrong. I'm good with that.

However, some atheists (and I do not mean all, just some) treat atheism as if it were itself a religion. That is, it is a core belief for them. Not only is there no proof FOR the existence of a God or Gods, there is no proof against them. There simply isn't any scientific evidence either way. The most that this can possibly 'prove' in a scientific way is that the answer is unknown at this time. We only know that we do not know. Some atheists inside that science proves there is no God. Balderdash. Science may well prove that Christianity (or any other flavor of religion) is unlikely in the extreme, given what we know about the origins of the universe, but it cannot and does not prove that there was no supernatural 'original cause' for the universe that one might call a God.

The fact that a thing has never been witnessed does not mean it does not exist. For example, the Higg's Boson. Now we are close to proving that it does exist. When we have proven it, will it suddenly exist, whereas before it did not exist? No, if indeed it does exist, it was there all along. It won't be a new thing; it will be a new discovery of something that has always existed. If we cannot prove the existence of a Creator, does that mean that it is not possible for a Creator to exist? No, it does not. Atheists who insist the opposite are doing so on faith, and faith is religion. One can say that the existence of a Creator remains unproven, and that the likelihood of proving such a thing is extremely small. That is not the same as saying a Creator cannot exist.

I will say this about atheists. If, when I die, I simply cease to exist, then I will not have the ability to admit I was wrong about religion, nor will they be able to 'neener neener' me from their own graves. If, however, I awaken in some kind of afterlife, I will laugh my *** off at the atheists. My bet that religion exists has a payoff. Theirs has none (Pascal's Wager).

 

[Tez3]

I know someone who converted to Judaism and a bigger pain in the **** you couldn't imagine. Talking to a Catholic padre not so long ago who agreed with me that people who convert are the ones who are holier than thou, who follow every single instruction etc to the letter and generally make those who are 'native' to that religion feel uncomfortable! This woman, made her husband and children convert, drove us all mad with the constant pernickity details she would go into, she decided they had had to make Aliyah and be 'proper' Israelis! her husband gave up his career with the RAF ( he was an engineer with eh Red Arrows) and trotted off. We got to the stage where we almost avoided her because all she went on about was this custom that custom and making us feel inadequate.
There was a Jewish guy who converted years ago to Catholicism, he became a priest then a bishop, guess he was still following his mothers advice lol!

 

[oftheherd1]

What he was ws Jewish. Xtianity does not start until well after his death.

I think Christians would say that as evidenced by our name, Christianity started with Christ. But you are right that according to the Bible, Christians were first called such at Antioch.

But it is anti-semitic. What most Xtians don't understand is that Jews and Judaism exist as one. When you try to convert Jews, you are destroying us as a people. Judaism is not something that is tacked on t our nationality/peoplehood. It is what we are.

I see what you are saying. I just have trouble accepting it. Peter and Paul maintained they were Jews even though accepting Christ as the Messiah, and therefore being Christians.

Interesting question, it hinges on how you capitalize messianic. All Jews are messianic. I pray for the arrival of the Messiah daily. What is an Oxymoron are Messianic Jews. "Jews" who believe that Jesus was the Messiah. There is no such thing. If you believe Jesus was the Messiah, you are a Xtian. Organizations like Jews for Jesus are all Xtian organization. They prey on the unafialated, sometimes alienated Jews. They setup shop near universities, where young Jews, sometimes rebelious against their parents can be targeted. In my city, they first set up in an area with a heavy concentration of Russian Jews. Recent Russian immigrants tend to be uneducated about Judaism, and are easy prey to the Jewish trappings of "Messianic synagogues".

I'm sorry but what you have said above seems contradictory, so I ask that you explain so I can understand please. In your second paragraph above you say that Jews and judaism are one. In the paragraph just above this you say that if you believe Jesus was the Messiah you are a Christian (therefore seeming no longer a Jew). How does one cease to be Jewish simply by accepting Jesus as the Messiah? As I mentioned, many in the Bible did not think they ceased to be Jewish. There were many who maintained they believed in Jesus as the Messiah, but insisted on following all the laws of Judaism they had been raised with.

Tribal affiliation has largely been lost. The only tribal knowledge that has been passed down are from Levi. Both Levites and Cohens, the priests. Everybody else is now just called Yisroel.

That must be a little disheartening to people who put so much stock in tradition (tradition isn't bad btw). But if all tribal affiliations have been lost, that seems to present a problem. How will you recognize the Messiah since He is to be of the tribe of Judah?

I really do want to thank you and Tez3 for enlightening me and others of your religious beliefs and culture. In fact Jesus was a Jew, Christianity started in Israel from Jewish roots, and we also believe in the Old Testament, and for those reasons I think I should know more about it. Thanks again both of you.

 

[CanuckMA]

I see what you are saying. I just have trouble accepting it. Peter and Paul maintained they were Jews even though accepting Christ as the Messiah, and therefore being Christians.

They can maintain what they want. Jesus was not the Messiah. He did not meet the first xriteria, being of the line of David.

I'm sorry but what you have said above seems contradictory, so I ask that you explain so I can understand please. In your second paragraph above you say that Jews and judaism are one. In the paragraph just above this you say that if you believe Jesus was the Messiah you are a Christian (therefore seeming no longer a Jew). How does one cease to be Jewish simply by accepting Jesus as the Messiah? As I mentioned, many in the Bible did not think they ceased to be Jewish. There were many who maintained they believed in Jesus as the Messiah, but insisted on following all the laws of Judaism they had been raised with.

It's simple. The Messiah has not come yet. Belief in Jesus is against what Judaism teaches. Therefore, you can't believe Jesus is the messiah and still practice Judaism. People can believe what they want, non-Jews do not define Judaism, we do. You call call a cat a dog, but it's still a cat

That must be a little disheartening to people who put so much stock in tradition (tradition isn't bad btw). But if all tribal affiliations have been lost, that seems to present a problem. How will you recognize the Messiah since He is to be of the tribe of Judah?

The Messiah will be of the line of David. When he comes, he will be able to prove it by his actions.

I really do want to thank you and Tez3 for enlightening me and others of your religious beliefs and culture. In fact Jesus was a Jew, Christianity started in Israel from Jewish roots, and we also believe in the Old Testament, and for those reasons I think I should know more about it. Thanks again both of you.

Get a copy of either the JPS or Artscroll translations of Tanach. Preferably with commentaries. You will get a good idea of what we are about. It's hard to explain, our religion, laws and history are intertwined. You can teach your children the history of your ethnicity or nationality without touching on religion. I can't teach my kids Jewish history without touching on things like the Exodus.

As a side note, can you reply with multi quotes like everyone else? it makes hard to properly reply to you.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And Bill ... An 'atheist get-together' tends to be about:
A: Building a peer network for personal support. The amount of that you need probably depends on how much people you would otherwise expect to rely on for emotional support tell you you're damned to hell.
B: Discussion of science, ethics, humanism. (Unfortunately often set against the backdrop of our Christian-soaked society).
C: As a continuation of B: Discussing how to make the world a better place.

Fair enough. But as regards "A" above...I hear that a lot. "You people keep telling me I'm damned to Hell!" Well, some people may say that. I don't. So it's OK to give me grief about my religion because of what I do NOT do to you? Nice.

Then I get, "Well, your precious BOOK tells me I'm damned to Hell!" OK, if it says that, it says that. A) What do you want me to do about it, I didn't write it, and B) If my religion is bogus, what do YOU care what it says about you?

Then I usually get a couple quotes from Scripture showing where my "precious BOOK" indeed damns unbelievers to Hell. All I can do is say sorry that bothers you. I can't change what it says. I could argue that being "damned to Hell" in some cases is interpreted to mean "being cast into the Lake of Fire," while in other cases it appears to mean simply "being separated from God for eternity." But I seldom do that - actually I never do it anymore - because as Tez noted, somebody always wants to tell you what your own religion orders you to believe. "NO! YOU HATE ME AND WANT ME IN HELL BECAUSE YOUR BIBLE SAYS SO!"

OK, fine.

One thing I have never done is seek out atheists to tell them they are wrong, they are going to Hell, or that I'm better than them. I simply don't care!

But it doesn't seem to stop SOME atheists from puking up their hatred on me at every opportunity. I get that they hate religion in general and Christianity in particular. Yay them. Leave me the hell alone and we'll be just fine. But no, they harass me to scream at me about how much I harass them. Never really got that part.

 

[cdunn]

Fair enough. But as regards "A" above...I hear that a lot. "You people keep telling me I'm damned to Hell!" Well, some people may say that. I don't. So it's OK to give me grief about my religion because of what I do NOT do to you? Nice.Then I get, "Well, your precious BOOK tells me I'm damned to Hell!" OK, if it says that, it says that. A) What do you want me to do about it, I didn't write it, and B) If my religion is bogus, what do YOU care what it says about you?Then I usually get a couple quotes from Scripture showing where my "precious BOOK" indeed damns unbelievers to Hell. All I can do is say sorry that bothers you. I can't change what it says. I could argue that being "damned to Hell" in some cases is interpreted to mean "being cast into the Lake of Fire," while in other cases it appears to mean simply "being separated from God for eternity." But I seldom do that - actually I never do it anymore - because as Tez noted, somebody always wants to tell you what your own religion orders you to believe. "NO! YOU HATE ME AND WANT ME IN HELL BECAUSE YOUR BIBLE SAYS SO!"OK, fine.One thing I have never done is seek out atheists to tell them they are wrong, they are going to Hell, or that I'm better than them. I simply don't care!But it doesn't seem to stop SOME atheists from puking up their hatred on me at every opportunity. I get that they hate religion in general and Christianity in particular. Yay them. Leave me the hell alone and we'll be just fine. But no, they harass me to scream at me about how much I harass them. Never really got that part.

It's not when you spec do it that it's a problem. Or even some random person on some message board... As has already happened in this very thread, one notes. It's when your own parents do it. It's when your boss does it. It's when presidential candidates tell you you can't be a good citizen. Does it exist? Certainly. I'm sorry you feel tarred, but some will fire in all directions when surrounded. These are the beliefs we are regularly confronted with.

 

[Jenna]

I do not know if anyone is reading and but if I could ask a general question, I would ask, if there was someone out there wandering the plains of the internet looking into this thread and undecided about which path through faith or around it might suit them best, do you think the discussions here would assist them with their decision?

Does it help you, does it reveal anything, or is everything you need to know on the subject already known to you to your satisfaction?

Is anything clearer? Or is everything as it was?

Thank you.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hi Jenna,

I was raised in a conservative Catholic family. My parents are quite devout, a couple of my brothers are as well, and I and my younger brother are definitely not. As soon as I left home for school I stopped attending services and actively distanced myself from it. I would only attend services out of respect for my parents if I was visiting them, as I don't see them often and I wasn't interested in starting unnecessary arguments and hurt feelings.

Lately, as I've entered my 4th decade on this earth, I've stopped playing that game as well. When my parents come to visit me, I make sure they can attend services when they wish, and I am happy to meet up with them afterwards. I make no pretenses about attending with them. I know that my mother prays for me, and feels I should do things differently. I refused to be confirmed when I was a teenager, and that was a big fight that I had with my parents. My mother sometimes brings it up and "encourages" me to get confirmed. I will not.

I don't know quite what I believe, but I see the Church, or any formalized religion as an attempt by humans to understand the mysterious, and that formalized institution simply doesn't cut it for me. So I do not engage in it.

I have some notions of what the big mystery may be, but I have no proof nor theology for it, it's just my own perception, elements of reincarnation/afterlife/repeated lifetimes, possibly driven by a higher power, something I cannot nail down exactly but rather a sense of what might be going on. But I have zero proof, either for or against it, I'll never know until I die and then I will find out.

 

[Jenna]

Hi Jenna,

I was raised in a conservative Catholic family. My parents are quite devout, a couple of my brothers are as well, and I and my younger brother are definitely not. As soon as I left home for school I stopped attending services and actively distanced myself from it. I would only attend services out of respect for my parents if I was visiting them, as I don't see them often and I wasn't interested in starting unnecessary arguments and hurt feelings.

Lately, as I've entered my 4th decade on this earth, I've stopped playing that game as well. When my parents come to visit me, I make sure they can attend services when they wish, and I am happy to meet up with them afterwards. I make no pretenses about attending with them. I know that my mother prays for me, and feels I should do things differently. I refused to be confirmed when I was a teenager, and that was a big fight that I had with my parents. My mother sometimes brings it up and "encourages" me to get confirmed. I will not.

I don't know quite what I believe, but I see the Church, or any formalized religion as an attempt by humans to understand the mysterious, and that formalized institution simply doesn't cut it for me. So I do not engage in it.

I have some notions of what the big mystery may be, but I have no proof nor theology for it, it's just my own perception, elements of reincarnation/afterlife/repeated lifetimes, possibly driven by a higher power, something I cannot nail down exactly but rather a sense of what might be going on. But I have zero proof, either for or against it, I'll never know until I die and then I will find out.

Hello Michael and thank you for your contribution. I'm grateful to learn a bit about your journey through faith. I sometimes wonder if formalised institution as you have put it is the right place to understand the mysterious? I often think efforts are made within large religions to actively suppress inquisitiveness. Do you ever feel that?

I think notions of the infinite, of God and of hereafter can only be taken on faith as there is no proof of anything, and for me this knowledge can only be discerned on an individual basis. I think to have no faith one obviously accepts a fixed termination point, and that is acceptable to many. To have a faith is to accept a transition point to whatever that faith advises and that is acceptable for many others. I think that area of neither is a result of our lives and our societies and the actions of others good and not so good. If you say you have notions Michael, is there no way you can gain for yourself satisfactory experiential knowledge of the virtue of those notions? You are saying you will take your notions to the grave and but I wonder is there no way to strengthen your faith in whatever form it is that you can have assurance? I do not know. I hear you are saying you are 4 decades yet I think you know you have statistically lots and lots of decades left and perhaps assurance in your personal faith is no priority, I understand this. I only wish you well. Can I ask please why did you refuse confirmation as a teenager? What made you decide it was not for you at that age? Again, thank you for sharing so generously as you have done, I appreciate you posting.

 

[ballen0351]

I once was one the the Atheist that Bill speaks of. I would go out of my way to make fun of Christians or other religious people more jokingly then hateful but still mean none the less. I would never quote the Bible to them because I thought it was a made up had had no meaning. i thought they were too stupid to see the real world. I saw too many evil and terrible things in my life to believe there could be a god. Going all the way back to when i was 12 a class mate and friend of mine lived 6 houses down from me killed his parents and sister one day with a base ball bat. Ive seen friends gunned down in training accidents in the Marine Corp. Watched recruits shoot themselves when I was a range instructor on Parris Island. Then I became a Police Officer and saw how truly evil people can be to eachother and thought there is no way a god would allow this to happen to his people. I was totally against it all i couldnt understand it. I stuck with this for most of my life. Then about 2 years ago I dont know why or what happened but I just started to see Gods calling. It started out small and slowly. I started to recall several times in my life where I should have been killed, shot, stabbed, and I wasnt for some fluke reason. Case in point I knocked on a door once to serve a warrant on the home owner. Just as I knocked for some reason my badge just fell off my shirt Im not sure how but it did so As I bent down to pick it up the home owner shot thru the door. Had I been standing up it would have hit me in the head. At the time I blamed my seatbelt on undoing the badge clasp and lifting it out of my shirt but now Im not so sure. I recalled others that shoudl have died but didnt. From there it went to getting a new rental car for work and in the CD player was a CD of a pastor giving a sermon. I listen to it for some reason. From there I was introduced to people in my life that were of strong religious faith and they were not pushy but they allowed me to ask question and answered them. Then out of the blue my wife asked that we start going to church which I was against and refused for a while as she went with the kids. Then I started to go to support her but sat in the back with a major attitude. Over time I started to listen to the Pastor and one day I dont know what happened I feel like I woke up. Everything jsut seemed brighter and more alive. I know it shoulds stupid but I actually felt like a weight was lifted off my shoulders. I cant explain it but I decided to join my church and started to pray. Im still very new to all of this so its very exciting and I learn more and more every day. But Im happy and it has changed my behavior, my outlook on life, my relationship with my wife and kids. i would never try to change anyones mind mainly because I dont think you can. Your relationship with God is a personal one and in time You will make your own choice even if it takes God smacking you up side the head a few times saying hey fool Ive been here all along.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hello Michael and thank you for your contribution. I'm grateful to learn a bit about your journey through faith. I sometimes wonder if formalised institution as you have put it is the right place to understand the mysterious? I often think efforts are made within large religions to actively suppress inquisitiveness. Do you ever feel that?

I do see this, or at least I see a sense of "this is what it all means" and while dialog and discussion and even doubt is usually welcome, it is welcome only if it leads back to the formal position of the Church. I'm just not convinced that the Church, the institution built by People, has discovered all the answers. While they have perhaps discovered many answers that are good, I don't believe that anyone holds the monopoly on the divine or the mysterious. And some of the Church's positions on things I absolutely disagree with.

I think notions of the infinite, of God and of hereafter can only be taken on faith as there is no proof of anything, and for me this knowledge can only be discerned on an individual basis. I think to have no faith one obviously accepts a fixed termination point, and that is acceptable to many. To have a faith is to accept a transition point to whatever that faith advises and that is acceptable for many others. I think that area of neither is a result of our lives and our societies and the actions of others good and not so good. If you say you have notions Michael, is there no way you can gain for yourself satisfactory experiential knowledge of the virtue of those notions? You are saying you will take your notions to the grave and but I wonder is there no way to strengthen your faith in whatever form it is that you can have assurance? I do not know. I hear you are saying you are 4 decades yet I think you know you have statistically lots and lots of decades left and perhaps assurance in your personal faith is no priority, I understand this. I only wish you well.

I actually do have notions that something comes after this life, I just cannot hold up proof of what these notions are. I find that if there is a just deity of some sort, one that has created us and actually loves us, then it's a weird notion that we have simply one lifetime to "get it right", and if we fail we may spend eternity in torment. Seems to me there's a whole lot riding on what we do in the span of a lifetime, which is nothing when compared to eternity. This suggests to me that there must be more than one chance to get it right. Hence my notions of running in a cycle of some sort, working things out with at least a few chances to do so. This assumes, of course, the existence of a loving and caring deity. If not, then we just come to an end.

Can I ask please why did you refuse confirmation as a teenager? What made you decide it was not for you at that age? Again, thank you for sharing so generously as you have done, I appreciate you posting.

From the time I was quite young, I resisted involvement in the Church. My parents, as I stated, are very devout and pushed for our involvement, and I resented it from a very early age. This resistance never left me, and it became a problem as I became a teenager. I couldn't tolerate it, but in my home there was no room to argue it. So when confirmation time came for me, at around 16 or so, I was hearing the message, "This is YOUR choice to make, this is YOUR committment and relationship with God". But I was not being given a choice, I was simply told that I must do this. So I stepped back and say, "wait a minute, if you are going to tell me that this is my choice, then I will actually choose, and I choose 'NO'". Well, that was the wrong choice, so it turned into a fight. But I simply refused, and eventually they let it go, tho I know they were very very upset by it. But I felt that given my feelings on the matter, and my resistance to it and even resentment to feeling like I was having my arm twisted to do this, it would be hipocritical to go thru it just to make someone else happy.

 

[Langenschwert]

That is very interesting Mark, thank you for sharing your guiding beliefs and principles. Do you know how far back these practices stretch? It sounds like a very ancient form of philosophy and thought organisation. Do you feel accompanied by your beliefs? Or are you in some ways left to your own devices? And what guidance do you have to, as you say, live to be the type of person the gods would want to hang out with? How do you or followers of Heathenism discern what kind of person the gods would want to hang out with if there are no writings to that effect? I am interested to understand. Thank you very much for your contribution.

Unfortunately, there has been no continuation of practice from earlier times to the present day. The last known temple of the Old Faith was in Uppsala, Sweden, and it was closed in the 1100's, IIRC. What we have left are the eddas, the sagas, and external writings by Roman writers who visited those tribes. We also have writing by churchmen of the day saying "don't you xyz", so we often take that as we should be doing xyz since the church wouldn't have frowned on practices no one adhered to.

Back in the day, each household practiced their own way. So it is today. It's not my business what someone else does. It is a somewhat existential faith when you get right down to it.

Our ethical guidance comes from the writings tempered by our own common sense. No one goes viking today, even if the practice was lauded back then. We examine the writings and apply them to our lives. What has become common is the adherence to the Nine Noble Virtues. There were codified by the Odinic Rite and have become pretty common shorthand for Heathen ethics. They are as follows:

1. Courage
2. Truth
3. Honour
4. Fidelity
5. Discipline
6. Hospitality
7. Self Reliance
8. Industriousness
9. Perseverance

You get the basic idea. There are two main rituals, Sumbel and Blot. Varying communities celebrate them differently. You'll have to look them up to get an idea of what they might be like. Yule and Veteran's Day are usually honoured as well. Yule is my favourite.

We are not Wiccans. We are not an "earth religion". Some Heathens don't even use the term "pagan" to further differentiate themselves from the neo-pagan pseudo-wiccan-influenced fluffy-bunny mainstream. Some are very modern in their approach while others, such as those who practice Theodism, try to be as historically authentic as possible. To each his own.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Instructor]

I do not know if anyone is reading and but if I could ask a general question, I would ask, if there was someone out there wandering the plains of the internet looking into this thread and undecided about which path through faith or around it might suit them best, do you think the discussions here would assist them with their decision?

Does it help you, does it reveal anything, or is everything you need to know on the subject already known to you to your satisfaction?

Is anything clearer? Or is everything as it was?

Thank you.

I don't know. What this thread shows me is that people with different religious ideas can have a sensible conversation on the subject. I think experiences shape us more than anything.

I grew up Methodist and spent hours listening to what they had to say but it never resonated. My pentacostal friend and I have a conversation one day and it changes the way I view the world!