Do you claim any religious faith? / How are you on sharing?

[elder999]

BTW, I do know of the tribes of Israel from the Bible, but don't recall anyone actually saying what tribe they were. What tribe are you?

You really don't want to go there. Genetics, DNA and all that.....carry on.

 

[Yondanchris]

I am a Christian, have been since my early teens. Looked at a lot of other "religions" but realized I needed a relationship with God and not "religion"! I currently serve as the assistant pastor at Trinity Baptist In Downey, Ca and love every day I get to serve hurting and lost people!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Bob reading this I picture you an eagle high above the landscape of faith that is rotating towards the curved horizon below. When you touch down it is only to take what you need for sustenance? I do not know if that is an appropriate allegory? I am feeling a distance between you and faith maybe like the Architect in the film the Matrix.. you know this episode?? The person who oversees.. the conductor of the orchestra. I do not know.. your explanation is like a ready-written memoir that I would read and be intrigued. If you dip into everything at the buffet do you develop a taste for all cuisines of the earth instead of a sophisticated and discerning palate for the cannolis of little Italy or the figs of the desert? Is one way better than the other? It is maybe like saying that cross training many arts and extracting the best techniques from each is better than just one art with its obvious defensive flaws? Is that an appropriate analogy?

Bob, can I ask, what are you an expert in?

And what shiny stuff do you find underneath the dross of tribal superstitions? And why is its shine insufficient? And what would need to happen to make that shine sufficient for you?

I have a lot of questions. I do not know if you are ok to answer and but thank you for sharing. Your journey is one that is intriguing to me for so many reasons. Thank you again.

I like the imagery. Has a bit of a 'Native American' vibe to it I think, Apache-ish maybe.

I have faith in my friends, faith in myself. In Gods, not so much. I see too much suffering of innocents to believe the Gods care too much about mundane things.

With the buffet idea, I try everything, but I have my favorites. I grew up in a Christian family, so my 'core' is 'tainted'/'imprinted' with those values. Just like having grown up with NY-Polish tastes, I find the food of other places 'different', sometimes extremely so. I think comparing religions to foods is apt. Take cheese for example. NY and Wisconsin are famous for their cheeses, as is Italy. But to a desert bushman in Africa, it's disgusting. To eat spoiled milk? Yuk! Because that's what cheese is...old spoiled milk thats fermented. (oversimplification). Comparing some religions is like talking cheese with someone who has a cultural dislike to it.

By the same token, the art comparison is also fitting. Some go the 'dabble, mix and match route'. Others focus intently on 1.
Both are valid, both work. Just different approaches for different folks.

I'm an expert in web design, photography, photoshop and complaining about the TSA.
In all other things, I'm but a learner.

The 'shiny' I find is the common threads. Most religions exist for guide you. To give you rules to live by. To offer explanations for 'things that go bump in the night'. To give hope that there's 'more' than what we have. To support and console you during trying times. That's the 'shiny' I see. I think too much to 'believe' in the 'superstition'. For all my prayer, I've never heard a reply. Despite my 'logic' sometimes I do pray. Maybe I got answers but am too hard of hearing, or heart, to hear them. Dunno.

But I've never felt Gods presence in a church. Ever. I felt it walking in the woods, alone, listening to the birds. Look at my nature shots....you'll see God in there.

And I say God, I might say Gods, I might say Goddess. It's all interchangeable as I don't think we can see deity, except in the corner of our eyes when we least expect it.

And I mock it all, religiously as it were. Because I think any being that could create all this wonder, all this diversity, all this magnificence, has to have a sense of humor. I think we're proof of that warped sense of humor. Because if I'm wrong, the world would be a lot less pleasant for a lot more of us, and we wouldn't be here having this discussion.

I might be right, I might be wrong. Maybe the Jews are right after all....or maybe the Babylonians they took half their scripture from were right, or maybe the Sumatrians who the Babylonians stole from were....I'll find out when I die. Until then, I wander, sample, taste, and experience as much as I can.

Make sense?

 

[Ken Morgan]

I haven’t read through all the proceeding pages, but I’ve read enough to see the path this thread is taking. An adult discussion on a subject that can be volatile, nice to see.

I was christened Church of Ireland, but being six months old, I likely didn’t protest my objections too loudly. I’m sure I was happy to be dry, well feed and well rested, kinda like how I feel these days!! It’s odd, I see the CofI as part of my heritage, part of where my family comes from, part of my family history, it is a part of who I am. Though today, and for the past, 30+ years I have identified myself as an atheist.

I am also a libertarian, as such I want to leave people alone, in return, I also wish to be left alone. If people want to believe in a religion, have fun with that. The problems in my eyes start arising when people let their children die because they refuse medical treatment for them, push their beliefs, (even lack of beliefs), on others, want tax breaks because they believe in X and attend X church. Everyone has to journey down a specific path in life, it’s up to you to sit back and take stock of the path you have chosen, if it’s religion, fine, if it’s not religion, fine, just start down that path with your eyes open. If you find you’ve chosen the wrong path, back up, and take another one, there is no correct way, just leave everyone else alone to walk down the path they have so chosen. ( Yes it’s much more complicated than this, but I’m feeling metaphysical today!)

 

[Sukerkin]

Ah ok I am sorry I do not mean to coerce you into talking about something which is difficult or private. I apologise I am grateful though for your sharing. I would not presume to be in the mind of your father. I am sure this is frustrating for you. I wonder if there is a conflict between wanting to please someone who means a lot to you and not being able to reconcile their demands with your own values? That must be difficult and cause a deal of strife. And if you are slighted by not having your views acknowledged as valid then I think it is only natural to rail against that slight. I am glad you are insightful enough to acknowledge these things to yourself. And I am also grateful for your sharing.

I would ask and if it is impertinent or private then feel no obligation and but if you have been raised in a family of faith, how did you determine atheism as the true path? I wish I could say why your father will not simply accept you for you; for the good person that you are. I wonder what he thinks your belief in a deity will do? Do you think he has your interest or his at heart? Thank you again, Sir

No coercion, dear lady :bows:. I sometimes speak of what I should not but I am seldom having my arm twisted when I do so .

Again, you are preceptive when you say that there is an awkwardness that arises from what I am convinced is true and what my father would have me believe (and how 'mule-headed', to use the American phrase, that can make me at times on this subject).

As to how I came to determine Atheism was the stance descriptive of my view of the universe; well, until very few years ago I have consistently titled myself as Agnostic. There was nothing to suggest that there was a creator deity but likewise nothing that explicitly precluded there being one either. As our knowledge increases, the space available for what is sometimes referred to as "The God of the Gaps" shrinks. I am more convinced now than I have ever been that the evolution of both the magnificent universe and the magnificent brain that sits inside our skulls are being explained to such a satisfactory extent that the requirement for a supernatural component is diminished to close to zero.

As to my fathers motivation, it is altruistic in that he truly believes I am condemning myself by my rejection of God and he seeks to 'save' me. What he has never come to see is that, if the God he believes in is so small minded as to punish me for non-belief in an environment where there is no evidence of his existence, then, even if such a deity existed, I would withhold my veneration from it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Suk, funny how so many of us look at the same things, yet come to different conclusions.


I'll make everyone a deal.
If we reincarnate, we meet and have a drink together.
If we find ourselves in 'Heaven', we meet and have a cold drink together.
If we find ourselves in 'Hell', we meet and have a hot drink together.
If we find ourselves just dust in the wind, we'll all meet in some other blokes drink together.

 

[Buka]

My mom wanted to start taking me to church when I was five. My dad told her, "Bring him to a different church each week and let him decide where he wants to go." So she did. Each week we would go to a different place of worship. A Synagogue one week, a Catholic church the next, a Protestant, Baptist, etc etc. This went on for two years. It was a lot of fun for a little kid. They were all nice places and the people were nice to us. A lot of the places had really neat windows.
Then, I decided to go with the faith that all the other little kids I hung around with belonged to. But I felt at home in any place of worship so sometimes I went to other places.

I've found that religions are somewhat similar to Karate schools. The other guy is always the infidel.

 

[CanuckMA]

[/b] Well, Jesus was indeed a Jew. However, as a Christian, I follow the teachings of Jesus from the New Testament as well. So I would say I am following what he was. You obviously disagree. That is your right.

What he was ws Jewish. Xtianity does not start until well after his death.

I don't think of it as anti-semitism because I think the usual understanding of that word would be that I wish to do you some harm beyond seeing you accept my beliefs as yours, or hold back your civil liberties, only because you are Jewish. I don't want to change your race, culture, tribe or people. For the same reason I am not anti-other religions unless as Bill mentioned, I perceive them as trying to do me harm.

But it is anti-semitic. What most Xtians don't understand is that Jews and Judaism exist as one. When you try to convert Jews, you are destroying us as a people. Judaism is not something that is tacked on t our nationality/peoplehood. It is what we are.

For curiosity, how do you view messianic Jews?

Interesting question, it hinges on how you capitalize messianic. All Jews are messianic. I pray for the arrival of the Messiah daily. What is an Oxymoron are Messianic Jews. "Jews" who believe that Jesus was the Messiah. There is no such thing. If you believe Jesus was the Messiah, you are a Xtian. Organizations like Jews for Jesus are all Xtian organization. They prey on the unafialated, sometimes alienated Jews. They setup shop near universities, where young Jews, sometimes rebelious against their parents can be targeted. In my city, they first set up in an area with a heavy concentration of Russian Jews. Recent Russian immigrants tend to be uneducated about Judaism, and are easy prey to the Jewish trappings of "Messianic synagogues".

BTW, I do know of the tribes of Israel from the Bible, but don't recall anyone actually saying what tribe they were. What tribe are you?

.

Tribal affiliation has largely been lost. The only tribal knowledge that has been passed down are from Levi. Both Levites and Cohens, the priests. Everybody else is now just called Yisroel.

 

[Instructor]

Can I ask you if you feel that faith (or perhaps rather the dogma of religion) has in some way made itself an easy target for ridicule? I think as people we are not perfect. Do you think that perhaps some professing a faith who might hold theirselves up as perfect -and are subesquently and publicly shown to be nothing of the kind- are in any way responsible for this ridiculing? I am sure there are other reasons too yes? Perhaps religion or faith is perceived as a threat. I understand this too. I think none of us like to feel threatened. I am interested in your views. Thank you for posting

I couldn't say, perhaps its just closed mindedness on both sides. For example though I am a Christian I often read the works about the Tao. Zen is appealing to me. Many of my Christian brethren would say some pretty rotten stuff about my interest. However I can find tons of passages in the Bible that are very Zen!

Plenty of horrors have been done in the name of Christianity such as baptism by the sword. One thing that separates us from many other religions is we feel that Jesus is literally the only way to heaven. It automatically excludes all other paths. I feel we should be tolerant of others and their ways but for a couple of thousand years most Christian sects look on all other ideas with disregard. In fact sometimes we turn on each other such as Protestant v.s. Catholic violence. On the whole, not a very tolerant group.

I am a Protestant who studies Zen and attends a Catholic College. The world takes all kinds of people and I believe that God and Jesus loves them all.

 

[WC_lun]

Not being Christian in America can be a pain at times. That is why many of us that aren't Christian decide to keep quiet. To understand this, you would have to put the shoe on the other foot. How often are Christians told they are going to hell, just because they are Christians? How often are you told your faith has no merit? Not specific parts of your faith, but your entire faith? I was once told by a hospital minister right before a major surgery that I needed to repent and join the Christian faith or I would die on the table and go to hell as a punishment. I hope you have not had a similiar experience, but some of my non-Christian friends have experienced similiar things.

Over time I have learned that these things are not Christian, but rather fearful people trying to spread thier fear. However, I just don't want to deal with those people, so for a long time I would not announce my faith, even when asked. I do think that it is getting better. This thread is an example of that. Inteeligent people speaking about a very personal thing with respect.

 

[Instructor]

For me it's like I meet somebody, grow to like them and respect them. Then one day I learn they aren't a Christian. I don't like them less because of it. On the contrary, I worry about them! I don't want to get to heaven and not have any friends there.

I don't want anybody to go to hell. I especially don't want a person to go if I could have stopped it somehow. I have lost friends and sometimes I feel shame that I never spoke to them about Jesus. What did my failure cost?

 

[Cyriacus]

Yes, I understand this analogy, thank you. And have you given this analogy in the third person for a reason? It is your personal faith I am interested in I think you are correct, we cannot know anything for sure except what our faith has proven to us And since you have not explicitly stated your faith, would I assume you are reticent for the aforementioned reasons? Or have I misinterpreted what you have written? I do appreciate your contribution and I am interested in hearing if you are so minded to share. Thank you.

It is my personal belief, yes. Its in the third person because Im not currently in a situation wherein I am aligned to a cause in such a way as to breed determination. A lesser reflection of this would be, lets say, Football. World Championships, winner takes all. One team is at a slight disadvantage from the previous match. They wont be discouraged, Theyll be motivated like none other. Like I said after, I believe that We can neither confirm nor deny any given faith, so I choose to believe that its all possible, and that since theres so many faiths to choose from, I may as well praise Odin and call it a day

 

[Steve]

To say I'm an atheist would imply that I really care enough to have that belief. I'm not religious... at all. I have gone to churches, and I've studied and know a little about most religions. I've read most of the religious books and enjoy them. I think that the philosophy of religions are interesting and respect everyone's rights to their beliefs.

I don't hesitate to share with people that I'm not a xtian and I don't believe it's ever been an issue for me. either I've never had a problem with it, or I'm too oblivious to notice.

 

[Steve]

For me it's like I meet somebody, grow to like them and respect them. Then one day I learn they aren't a Christian. I don't like them less because of it. On the contrary, I worry about them! I don't want to get to heaven and not have any friends there.

I don't want anybody to go to hell. I especially don't want a person to go if I could have stopped it somehow. I have lost friends and sometimes I feel shame that I never spoke to them about Jesus. What did my failure cost?

I think that's sweet, but if you brought it up every time we hung out, it would probably grow tiresome. Kind of like if I bugged you all the time about your high cholesterol or to quit smoking.

But if it makes you feel any better, I don't believe either of us is going to hell.

 

[Instructor]

Well if I've shown the path and you choose to walk a different one then you are taking responsibility and I am relieved of worry I guess. Nah...I would still worry. I just wouldn't become tiresome.

 

[Ken Morgan]

What did my failure cost?

Perhaps your friends?
I have many religious friends, we never talk about religion in a serious way. We all know what everyone else in the group believes, so for the preservation of the friendships some things are better left unsaid. Those of us who are on the atheist side of the fence believe our religious friends believe in what are essentially fairy tales, my religious friends feel we atheists are misguided and lost and if we would only let Jesus in we would be saved. I have one older lady that insists on giving some of us bibles and religious based literature on a fairly regular basis, I know her gestures come from a kind heart and she means no ill will, but more importantly her friendship means much more to me than any potential offence I may feel. If anyone, anyone, in our group began to attempt to shove their beliefs down the throats of others, regardless of the intent, friendships would be lost, very quickly. It’s not worth it.

 

[Instructor]

In the end alienating people and losing friends is simply counterproductive. Better to try to just be a good and loving friend. Demonstrate faith through your example and when you fall short be honest about it.

 

[Steve]

Ah... I don't know. I've found that it's much more irritating in writing. In real life, my friends who are religious tend to be far less obnoxious than those who proselytize online. It just doesn't bother me that much. I have a couple who bring it up fairly often, but after I smile and remind them that I don't play on that team, they knock it off. And I don't feel any compulsion to mock them relentlessly for their belief in elves, witches, unicorns and fairies... or angels or whatever.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I think I touched on this in a different thread, but I'll try and repeat it here, especially since Jenna's curious how my heads working.

Part of why I believe as I do comes from observation.
I look at all the different sizes, shapes and types of trees. Some flower, some fruit, some have colored leaves, some never lose their leaves. Some are short, some touch the sky.
I look at all the different types of people. Pink, red, orange, yellow, pale white, black as night and a hundred shades in between. We're all different, in so very many ways.
They say that no 2 snow flakes are the same.
This is a world of such wonder, such variety, such variation. We have forests, and deserts, and prairies and seas.
Such beauty.

If we are divinely created, I see that creator as one who loves that variety, because if they didn't, we would have trees that were all alike and so forth.

I see so many faiths believe in an afterlife, a heaven, a 'next phase'. Maybe it's just desperate hope. Or maybe it's a half buried memory of a whisper that 'more awaits'.

I don't know.

But what I do believe, is that IF! we are really a Divine Creation, that our Creator's love of variety would carry over to that "Heaven", and that all of us are welcome, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Pagan, etc. With all of our quirks, issues, hangups and what not.

And that the 'only true believers get in' idea is our idea, our need to "be right".

Again, that's my view. I don't ask anyone else to 'convert', or agree.

Just that if anyone feels strongly enough to burn me at the stake for heresy, that they use a renewable fuel source and an HFCS free BBQ sauce.

 

[David43515]

Jenna, when you ask so nicely how could anyone refuse? I`m a Mormon. The actual name of the church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", but everyone usually just calls us Mormons.

I converted when I was 21, and I`m 45 now. I`ve never been shy about sharing my beliefs, but I do tend to let other people bring it up first. I like there to be a comfortable exchange of ideas with someone who`s interested instead of feeling like I`m forcing my beliefs on others who could care less. And since I looked at a lot of faiths when I was young and searching, I really enjoy hearing what other people believe.

I`d be happy to answer any questions anyone had for me, either in public or in private. I have to ask though that you remember I`m only human. I`m not the best exaample of my faith and I`d hate to think that someone was judging the church based on my behavior.