I honestly don't know Jenna. I don't ridicule other people or their religions or the lack thereof. Ultimately we are all here just trying to find our way in life. I think some people deal with fear by tormenting others. I think some people open themselves up to be tormented though I know not why.
Can I ask you if you feel that faith (or perhaps rather the dogma of religion) has in some way made itself an easy target for ridicule? I think as people we are not perfect. Do you think that perhaps some professing a faith who might hold theirselves up as perfect -and are subesquently and publicly shown to be nothing of the kind- are in any way responsible for this ridiculing? I am sure there are other reasons too yes? Perhaps religion or faith is perceived as a threat. I understand this too. I think none of us like to feel threatened. I am interested in your views. Thank you for posting
Aye, some part of the roots of the strength of my feelings on the negative aspects of religion and religious belief (there are positive aspects too) has been fed by my father. Not that his faith has been leading him to do any evil, quite the reverse but because, since I was about fifteen, every time we speak we end up circling the same topic viz my lack of willingness to believe in a creator deity and his lack of willingness to stop trying to reconvert me.
I have to be careful when I speak here on matters of religion because, as I am only human, all those decades of debate going over the same ground again and again have made me prone to speak in derisory terms - I cannot speak to my father that way and the pressure has to come out somewhere . Not something I am proud of, I do confess .
Ah ok I am sorry I do not mean to coerce you into talking about something which is difficult or private. I apologise
I am grateful though for your sharing. I would not presume to be in the mind of your father. I am sure this is frustrating for you. I wonder if there is a conflict between wanting to please someone who means a lot to you and not being able to reconcile their demands with your own values? That must be difficult and cause a deal of strife. And if you are slighted by not having your views acknowledged as valid then I think it is only natural to rail against that slight. I am glad you are insightful enough to acknowledge these things to yourself. And I am also grateful for your sharing.
I would ask and if it is impertinent or private then feel no obligation
and but if you have been raised in a family of faith, how did you determine atheism as the true path? I wish I could say why your father will not simply accept you for you; for the good person that you are. I wonder what he thinks your belief in a deity will do? Do you think he has your interest or his at heart? Thank you again, Sir
I've met a good number of religious people both online and off that have no issue debating their faith or the existence of God. However, some do not, not at all. I do not think that atheism is necessarily a threat to faith, but i think it nonetheless is a threat for some people. People who are insecure in their faith, or who have based their faith on certain "rocks" like the inerrancy of scripture or Young Earth Creationism are particularly vulnerable. The presence of counter-arguments that undercut their "rocks", or simply the presence of people who do not believe as they do, provokes insecurity and a harsh reaction. I think that some people also view their faith in very personal, emotional terms. People who then argue against their faith are not a threat as such, but are attacking something personal and close, which provokes a reaction. And as I said, plenty of believers have no problem at all with the debate.
As for the other way around, I do not think theism is a threat to atheism. The harsh reactions from atheists are mostly a reaction to experiences they have had, and prevailing cultural attitudes. It will probably calm down quite a bit with time as acceptance improves, just as it has for most of Europe.
Yes I can see that an insecurity in a faith breeds anger when that faith is called into question. I think that is not a faith at all and but a frail leaf handing on a stem waiting to be clipped. Is it cruel if I say you are doing a service to faith by exposing this? I hope not. I do not mean to be cruel only I think sometimes the emptiest vessels make the most sound. I would say that happens not just in the weak of faith and but among atheists that are not firm in their own rationale. I think in both cases neither should speak out because it only comes out as anger I think. Do you think notion has any basis in fact?
I think the personal aspect is important too. A perceived disrespect on say my martial art, I would not take as an affront to me personally (though I have seen it happen at the door of an old dojo where some of the seniors where prepared to put someone down physically for “mocking” Aikido. I remember wondering why. I think though I have not seen them again that their affront may have been from an uncertainty within theirselves? I do not know if that is me doing armchair psychodynamics lol. I really do think you have hit the nail on the head though in highlighting insecurity. It is funny how we react in these cases. Insecurity and lack of empathy for the other position. I think those are key, no?
Likewise, it is easy to understand the reaction that many have had against religions (both from within religion inter- and intra- and from without) considering how many religions conduct theirselves. I think it is proof that we are indoctrinated when we give assent to acts that in our hearts we know we cannot condone.. ah.. Hey thank you for the discussion. I am grateful to hear your views, especially on how to reach common ground across such disparate worldviews
I don't think Christians should compromise with other religions. Nor do I think we should be antagonistic in attempting to win others to Christ. If others are antagonistic towards us, we should not return antagonism for antagonism. We should either continue to try to show them the way to salvation with love, or just leave them alone in their belief. If you believe the Bible, the strongest will eventially win. That would be Christ and His church. But the battle will be apocalyptic. ;-)
I think that is a good balance. I think though not compromising does not equate to non-tolerance?
Can I ask please is you view of a multi-faith earth one of competition leading to the ultimate victory for the righteous?
Can I ask also, do you think there are sources of commonality between faiths? Or must the lessons of exclusion –either explicit or implied– within the various holy texts be taken literally?
I am very interested in your views. Thank you very much for participating.
I've long said my path was a long and winding one. I grew up Episcopal. Went agnostic in high school, spent a little time following Lavey, became Born Again, decided I got it right the first time and 'back slid', heard the Call of the Goddess, then decided that pondering The Way was what was needed to fix my Confusian. But living in the cold north-east I aimed for warmer climates so hitched a ride with Apollo on his charriot stopping off to walk along the Nile with Isis, Anubis and Bast. But I was called eastward again to Dance with Shivah. Now I find that No Mind is a pleasing thought while I seek Inner Wisdom. Soon I'll move along the path again, where too I don't know, but regardless I know I will continue to grow as I Walk.
Along the way I've met many good people, had many a deep discussion and heated argument. I've read more scripture, from more dead cultures that I've read Star Trek novels, and I have 2 book cases of those.
My thinking is balanced by logic, some say heresy, some say fantasy. I don't believe that any one religion is correct. I think all are right, for some, but none right for all. A world as diverse as ours couldn't have any one religion be correct any more than we have 1 tree or 1 flower. We just are.
My personal experiences, which I share with few in detail, tell me that there is something out there. But it's beyond our ability to understand right now, that 'we will understand when we get there'.
If you wish to pray for me, I am not offended. If you wish to 'send positive energy', regardless of it's form, it's always appreciated. That someone takes the time to think of me, is always warming. If they take the time to curse me, I know I'm winning.
An Ye Harm None, Do As Ye Wish.
Namaste.
Bob, thank you for sharing. Can I ask please, through your orthodox and otherworldly travels, would you say you currently have a faith? Can I also ask what was the first step or what caused you to take that first step out of the security of your Episcopal upbringing and into the enforced uncertainty of the agnostic? And because I am interested, can I also ask without annoying you, how would you say your travels with faith and through faith in its various incarnations informs your life, your choices and demeanour right now? Am I seeing you as a Faith Tourist? Or do you stop and abide a while in a place? Thank you for sharing your journey. It must certainly have given you a wide perspective over the landscape. I am grateful to learn and would like to know more
I'm an Orthodox Jew. My faith is part of my life. Everything I do is imbued by my faith. And I can't hide it. The kipa is a dead give away. I came to it after a secular upbrigning. Tez had put it quite eloquently, as usual. I also come at the 'love' of Xtians from a different angle. I grew up in the French neighbourhoods of Montreal during the 60s and 70s. I went to public school, that meant Catholic school. I learned very quickly to hide my identity. I'm fortunate to have a 'generic' name. Easter was not a fun time for me. Filled with the "Jews killed Jesus" rethoric.
I have reached the point where I've had it up to here with Xtians trying to argue the meaning of MY sacred texts. I'm sorry, but if you can't read the original language, you don't really know what it says.
I am very grateful for the opportunity to learn some more of your faith. Again, I am sorry that you personally have had unpleasant experience as a result of nothing more than your beliefs. I think from my experience of your hometown, if you had not been picked on for one thing it would have been for another. It is a cosmopolitan city full of such diversity and but every creed and race and colour and identity wants their own exclusive bit. I do not envy you growing up there, it must have been very very difficult. And do you live there still now? I hope you have found a greater acceptance wherever you are now and I hope you have not had to hide your faith although I appreciate that bigotry can be anywhere. Please share some more of the positive aspects of your faith and how it informs your life today. I would be very grateful indeed if you were inclined. Thank you again.
How long have you got? It's more than a faith, we are a race of people, in the UK and many other places in Europe this is set in law. I was told many years ago that Christians believe in G-d, Jews don't, they know there's a G-d so it's not a belief as such but much more. We have a Covenant, a bargain, with G-d we keep our side maybe not so well, he keeps his better, we argue with Him, he's one of us yet not but we have a very personal relationship with Him. Christians I think are the only ones who talk about it being 'faith', the older religions as with ours it just is.
Tez thank you for sharing. I admit my lack of exposure to the Jewish faith renders me practically ignorant and so what I would like is to know more of the good and positive and uplifting and encouraging experiences that you have had as a result of being a Jewish woman.
I think I truly like the idea of knowing as distinctly different from believing. I think if you can know something it is almost akin to unlocking a very great secret that believing on its own cannot. I thought I was the only one to think like this. I did not know it was a staple in your faith. My father showed that to me saying you cannot even move your little finger by believing. You know it and it moves. I appreciate it is not the same and but the principle always seemed to have a scope.
And can I ask how this security in your faith has perhaps given you strength in your daily life? I hope that is not to pry. Thank you for the above. There are so many negative things about so many faiths, I am very grateful to hear the positive things. Thank you.
