Do you claim any religious faith? / How are you on sharing?

[Tez3]

Patently untrue, at least for me, I pray for a multitude of things. Sometimes I just want them to find peace in their relationships or I pray that someone's marriage will work out. I've prayed that maybe a person's disease will get miraculously cured or perhaps they will suffer less.

I don’t do the anti-Semitism thing. The entire early church including Jesus were Jews.

I do pray that an unbeliever will find belief, but I don’t chase them around trying to upset or offend them. It's generally a private thing. If somebody gets angry or offended I just drop the subject and remember them in my prayers privately.

Are you so sure then that you are right and I'm wrong? I'm a Jew and Jesus was a Jew so really why are you not following what he was, why so sure that an 'unbeliever' like myself is so wrong? By thinking I'm an unbeliever how is that not anti semitism? You want me to change my race, my culture, my tribe, my people to become one of you. That's as about anti as you can get.

I think that you are wrong as an American, I shall pray that you leave American and all it's evils and become British, that you forsake everything American, that you forget you were ever an American and you speak with a British accent you eat fish and chips, bet on the dogs, read The Sun and never say a good word about America ever again. See it doesn't work does it? We are as G-d meant us to be, to try to convert people is against His wishes.

 

[Instructor]

Are you so sure then that you are right and I'm wrong? I'm a Jew and Jesus was a Jew so really why are you not following what he was, why so sure that an 'unbeliever' like myself is so wrong? By thinking I'm an unbeliever how is that not anti semitism? You want me to change my race, my culture, my tribe, my people to become one of you. That's as about anti as you can get.

I think that you are wrong as an American, I shall pray that you leave American and all it's evils and become British, that you forsake everything American, that you forget you were ever an American and you speak with a British accent you eat fish and chips, bet on the dogs, read The Sun and never say a good word about America ever again. See it doesn't work does it? We are as G-d meant us to be, to try to convert people is against His wishes.

Ah Tez you honor me. My daughter would choose UK in a second! In a sense as sinners, we are all wrong . I am not good enough to be Jewish.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill M, as a Catholic will you be saying the prayer that condemns and asks that we convert?

What prayer would that be? I don't recall condemning anyone. The Good Friday Prayer does pray for conversion of the Jews, yes:

Let us also pray for the Jews: That our God and Lord may illuminate their hearts, that they acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. (Let us pray. Kneel. Rise.) Almighty and eternal God, who want that all men be saved and come to the recognition of the truth, propitiously grant that even as the fullness of the peoples enters Thy Church, all Israel be saved. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.


It's not my doctrine, I'd just as soon not say it at all, but yes, it's Catholic.

 

[Langenschwert]

Asatru.

For those who don't know what that is, it's Norse polytheism, also known as Heathenism. Some practicioners try to practice as closely as possible to historical evidence, whereas I'm more in the camp of "what would it be like today if there had been no Christianity?"

What I like about it is, there is no salvation. Humans don't need it. We are fine as we are. The idea is to be the type of person the gods would want to hang out with. We have no sacred scriptures that we consider to be divinely inspired. We know the sagas and eddas are myths. They are illustrations of how our forefathers thought about some religious issues. Since there are multiple deities, we are not so fond of damning others for their beliefs, since they could be as "right" as ours. People should worship (or not) as they see fit. As long as they don't hinder me in mine. We do not turn the other cheek. There is no commandment to worship (or even like) the gods. That's the individual's choice. The one thing a Heathen must never do is disrespect the ancestors, either his own or those of others.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Tez3]

That is your belief. That is OK, you are free to have your beliefs as I am mine. But as I pointed out in my post, my Bible has an Old Testament and a New Testament. You choose to only believe in the Old Testament. I believe in both. In my belief, Jesus was both God and man. As a man, he was indeed a Jew in everything. There is no problem in that. But he was also God manifast as a man to teach us and provide us free salvation. The Bible (the New Testament) as I recollect, does not say the Jesus will return as a man, only that He will return. His first appearance will be in the air to collect those saved. Would he worship in a synagogue or shul? I don't know that he would. As I said, he founded His church, and reading the New Testament makes it appear those jews who believed in him, were not welcomed in the synagogues, but in fact, excluded. But in my belief it is a moot point.

I always (well, almost always) listened to my mother. The kosher cooking I am not required to follow by revelation of God to Peter in the New Testament. If you wish to there is no problem. Daniel made a point of it and it obviously was healthy for him.

The thing we aren't free to have our beliefs because you want to change us, you feel it encumbant on you to change me because you believe I'm in the wrong. Btw if Jews are excluded from a synagogue they will just go either to another one or start one themselves. Judaism isn't like the Catholic Church for example having an actual organisation.
I don't 'chose' to believe in the 'Old Testament', I know it exists so no belief needed, it's the history and texts of my people. To read something into them that's not there or to change the meanings of what is written to suit another's religion is just wrong frankly. You'd get annoyed if I started misquoting the American Constitution, taking it over and readng stuff into it and telling you I'm right so why do you do it with our texts, our constitition if you like.

 

[Jenna]

I honestly don't know Jenna. I don't ridicule other people or their religions or the lack thereof. Ultimately we are all here just trying to find our way in life. I think some people deal with fear by tormenting others. I think some people open themselves up to be tormented though I know not why.

Can I ask you if you feel that faith (or perhaps rather the dogma of religion) has in some way made itself an easy target for ridicule? I think as people we are not perfect. Do you think that perhaps some professing a faith who might hold theirselves up as perfect -and are subesquently and publicly shown to be nothing of the kind- are in any way responsible for this ridiculing? I am sure there are other reasons too yes? Perhaps religion or faith is perceived as a threat. I understand this too. I think none of us like to feel threatened. I am interested in your views. Thank you for posting

Aye, some part of the roots of the strength of my feelings on the negative aspects of religion and religious belief (there are positive aspects too) has been fed by my father. Not that his faith has been leading him to do any evil, quite the reverse but because, since I was about fifteen, every time we speak we end up circling the same topic viz my lack of willingness to believe in a creator deity and his lack of willingness to stop trying to reconvert me.

I have to be careful when I speak here on matters of religion because, as I am only human, all those decades of debate going over the same ground again and again have made me prone to speak in derisory terms - I cannot speak to my father that way and the pressure has to come out somewhere . Not something I am proud of, I do confess .

Ah ok I am sorry I do not mean to coerce you into talking about something which is difficult or private. I apologise I am grateful though for your sharing. I would not presume to be in the mind of your father. I am sure this is frustrating for you. I wonder if there is a conflict between wanting to please someone who means a lot to you and not being able to reconcile their demands with your own values? That must be difficult and cause a deal of strife. And if you are slighted by not having your views acknowledged as valid then I think it is only natural to rail against that slight. I am glad you are insightful enough to acknowledge these things to yourself. And I am also grateful for your sharing.

I would ask and if it is impertinent or private then feel no obligation and but if you have been raised in a family of faith, how did you determine atheism as the true path? I wish I could say why your father will not simply accept you for you; for the good person that you are. I wonder what he thinks your belief in a deity will do? Do you think he has your interest or his at heart? Thank you again, Sir

I've met a good number of religious people both online and off that have no issue debating their faith or the existence of God. However, some do not, not at all. I do not think that atheism is necessarily a threat to faith, but i think it nonetheless is a threat for some people. People who are insecure in their faith, or who have based their faith on certain "rocks" like the inerrancy of scripture or Young Earth Creationism are particularly vulnerable. The presence of counter-arguments that undercut their "rocks", or simply the presence of people who do not believe as they do, provokes insecurity and a harsh reaction. I think that some people also view their faith in very personal, emotional terms. People who then argue against their faith are not a threat as such, but are attacking something personal and close, which provokes a reaction. And as I said, plenty of believers have no problem at all with the debate.

As for the other way around, I do not think theism is a threat to atheism. The harsh reactions from atheists are mostly a reaction to experiences they have had, and prevailing cultural attitudes. It will probably calm down quite a bit with time as acceptance improves, just as it has for most of Europe.

Yes I can see that an insecurity in a faith breeds anger when that faith is called into question. I think that is not a faith at all and but a frail leaf handing on a stem waiting to be clipped. Is it cruel if I say you are doing a service to faith by exposing this? I hope not. I do not mean to be cruel only I think sometimes the emptiest vessels make the most sound. I would say that happens not just in the weak of faith and but among atheists that are not firm in their own rationale. I think in both cases neither should speak out because it only comes out as anger I think. Do you think notion has any basis in fact?

I think the personal aspect is important too. A perceived disrespect on say my martial art, I would not take as an affront to me personally (though I have seen it happen at the door of an old dojo where some of the seniors where prepared to put someone down physically for “mocking” Aikido. I remember wondering why. I think though I have not seen them again that their affront may have been from an uncertainty within theirselves? I do not know if that is me doing armchair psychodynamics lol. I really do think you have hit the nail on the head though in highlighting insecurity. It is funny how we react in these cases. Insecurity and lack of empathy for the other position. I think those are key, no?

Likewise, it is easy to understand the reaction that many have had against religions (both from within religion inter- and intra- and from without) considering how many religions conduct theirselves. I think it is proof that we are indoctrinated when we give assent to acts that in our hearts we know we cannot condone.. ah.. Hey thank you for the discussion. I am grateful to hear your views, especially on how to reach common ground across such disparate worldviews

I don't think Christians should compromise with other religions. Nor do I think we should be antagonistic in attempting to win others to Christ. If others are antagonistic towards us, we should not return antagonism for antagonism. We should either continue to try to show them the way to salvation with love, or just leave them alone in their belief. If you believe the Bible, the strongest will eventially win. That would be Christ and His church. But the battle will be apocalyptic. ;-)

I think that is a good balance. I think though not compromising does not equate to non-tolerance?

Can I ask please is you view of a multi-faith earth one of competition leading to the ultimate victory for the righteous?

Can I ask also, do you think there are sources of commonality between faiths? Or must the lessons of exclusion –either explicit or implied– within the various holy texts be taken literally?

I am very interested in your views. Thank you very much for participating.

I've long said my path was a long and winding one. I grew up Episcopal. Went agnostic in high school, spent a little time following Lavey, became Born Again, decided I got it right the first time and 'back slid', heard the Call of the Goddess, then decided that pondering The Way was what was needed to fix my Confusian. But living in the cold north-east I aimed for warmer climates so hitched a ride with Apollo on his charriot stopping off to walk along the Nile with Isis, Anubis and Bast. But I was called eastward again to Dance with Shivah. Now I find that No Mind is a pleasing thought while I seek Inner Wisdom. Soon I'll move along the path again, where too I don't know, but regardless I know I will continue to grow as I Walk.

Along the way I've met many good people, had many a deep discussion and heated argument. I've read more scripture, from more dead cultures that I've read Star Trek novels, and I have 2 book cases of those.

My thinking is balanced by logic, some say heresy, some say fantasy. I don't believe that any one religion is correct. I think all are right, for some, but none right for all. A world as diverse as ours couldn't have any one religion be correct any more than we have 1 tree or 1 flower. We just are.

My personal experiences, which I share with few in detail, tell me that there is something out there. But it's beyond our ability to understand right now, that 'we will understand when we get there'.

If you wish to pray for me, I am not offended. If you wish to 'send positive energy', regardless of it's form, it's always appreciated. That someone takes the time to think of me, is always warming. If they take the time to curse me, I know I'm winning.

An Ye Harm None, Do As Ye Wish.

Namaste.

Bob, thank you for sharing. Can I ask please, through your orthodox and otherworldly travels, would you say you currently have a faith? Can I also ask what was the first step or what caused you to take that first step out of the security of your Episcopal upbringing and into the enforced uncertainty of the agnostic? And because I am interested, can I also ask without annoying you, how would you say your travels with faith and through faith in its various incarnations informs your life, your choices and demeanour right now? Am I seeing you as a Faith Tourist? Or do you stop and abide a while in a place? Thank you for sharing your journey. It must certainly have given you a wide perspective over the landscape. I am grateful to learn and would like to know more

I'm an Orthodox Jew. My faith is part of my life. Everything I do is imbued by my faith. And I can't hide it. The kipa is a dead give away. I came to it after a secular upbrigning. Tez had put it quite eloquently, as usual. I also come at the 'love' of Xtians from a different angle. I grew up in the French neighbourhoods of Montreal during the 60s and 70s. I went to public school, that meant Catholic school. I learned very quickly to hide my identity. I'm fortunate to have a 'generic' name. Easter was not a fun time for me. Filled with the "Jews killed Jesus" rethoric.


I have reached the point where I've had it up to here with Xtians trying to argue the meaning of MY sacred texts. I'm sorry, but if you can't read the original language, you don't really know what it says.

I am very grateful for the opportunity to learn some more of your faith. Again, I am sorry that you personally have had unpleasant experience as a result of nothing more than your beliefs. I think from my experience of your hometown, if you had not been picked on for one thing it would have been for another. It is a cosmopolitan city full of such diversity and but every creed and race and colour and identity wants their own exclusive bit. I do not envy you growing up there, it must have been very very difficult. And do you live there still now? I hope you have found a greater acceptance wherever you are now and I hope you have not had to hide your faith although I appreciate that bigotry can be anywhere. Please share some more of the positive aspects of your faith and how it informs your life today. I would be very grateful indeed if you were inclined. Thank you again.

How long have you got? It's more than a faith, we are a race of people, in the UK and many other places in Europe this is set in law. I was told many years ago that Christians believe in G-d, Jews don't, they know there's a G-d so it's not a belief as such but much more. We have a Covenant, a bargain, with G-d we keep our side maybe not so well, he keeps his better, we argue with Him, he's one of us yet not but we have a very personal relationship with Him. Christians I think are the only ones who talk about it being 'faith', the older religions as with ours it just is.

Tez thank you for sharing. I admit my lack of exposure to the Jewish faith renders me practically ignorant and so what I would like is to know more of the good and positive and uplifting and encouraging experiences that you have had as a result of being a Jewish woman.

I think I truly like the idea of knowing as distinctly different from believing. I think if you can know something it is almost akin to unlocking a very great secret that believing on its own cannot. I thought I was the only one to think like this. I did not know it was a staple in your faith. My father showed that to me saying you cannot even move your little finger by believing. You know it and it moves. I appreciate it is not the same and but the principle always seemed to have a scope.

And can I ask how this security in your faith has perhaps given you strength in your daily life? I hope that is not to pry. Thank you for the above. There are so many negative things about so many faiths, I am very grateful to hear the positive things. Thank you.

 

[Tez3]

What prayer would that be? I don't recall condemning anyone. The Good Friday Prayer does pray for conversion of the Jews, yes:

Let us also pray for the Jews: That our God and Lord may illuminate their hearts, that they acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. (Let us pray. Kneel. Rise.) Almighty and eternal God, who want that all men be saved and come to the recognition of the truth, propitiously grant that even as the fullness of the peoples enters Thy Church, all Israel be saved. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.


It's not my doctrine, I'd just as soon not say it at all, but yes, it's Catholic.

and how did that prayer originally read for centuries until recently changed to less strong language?

"Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts 2 Corinthians 3:13-16; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. ('Amen' is not responded, nor is said 'Let us pray', or 'Let us kneel', or 'Arise', but immediately is said:) Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen"




It was even worse before that, we were the perfidious Jews... "pro perfidis judaeis". the Anglican and Orthodox Churches are no better.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I was asking, if atheists are a threat only to themselves, then why do some Christians react to atheists in such an angry and strong way? That implies they are a threat. If someone is not a threat, it doesn't seem like anyone would pay them any attention.

Wheelp, let's see. I don't go around telling atheists that they are stupid not to believe in God. I don't care if they do or not, it's entirely their business. But I've got a couple of FB friends who are atheists who seem to delight in posting things like "See what your imaginary wish-granting sky-fairy did this time?" Yes, very amusing. Oh, wait, I mean, very childish. For people who say they simply don't believe in God for themselves, they seem to have a strong, perhaps uncontrollable urge to attempt to offend as many Christians as possible. I am not referring to you, but I'm trying to answer your question. Do they threaten me? No, they annoy me, the petulant little bitches.

I find it a bit amusing, although it does not annoy me or threaten me, that several of them apparently like to attend atheist meetings on a regular basis; you know, like religious services. I just find it hilarious. I don't know what you talk about at an atheist get-together. "Well, here we all are, no thanks to the God that doesn't exist." "Yep." "Are we all agreed that there is no God?" "Yep, definitely no God." "Well, OK, then. Who brought the beer?"

I mean, all joking aside, I am defined at least partially by what I believe. I cannot imagine being defined by what I do NOT believe. In other words, religion is part of my life; but how is the absence of religion part of anyone's life? How do you embrace what you don't believe instead of what you do? I'm not saying atheism is wrong, meetings about it seem like caring about a null void. Here is where God would be if I believed in and loved Him. I don't, so I love this empty spot where He would be instead. Huh?

On a more practical note, as I've stated earlier, all of us have the right to try to live in a society that reflects our values; religious or otherwise. And while atheists are often unhappy with state-supported religious trappings (and by the way, I frequently agree with them, surprise), some atheists have an agenda that includes dismantling religion, not just keeping a strong wall between Church and State. Are they a threat to me? Sure they are! They have the right to try to get their agenda passed, and I have the right to try to stop them from doing so.

That does not make all atheists my enemy. But those who would try to tear down religious institutions or control them, yeah, pretty much. They are a threat to me because I do not want what they want. And I have the right to both feel that way and to work to stop them by casting my votes against that nonsense.

But like I said. There are atheists who just don't believe in God - that's cool. There are atheists who dislike religion - fine with me. And there are atheists who seem to have a problem with religious people, go out of their way to be insulting and crass, and then there are those atheists who actively try to destroy religion through political means. So I do treat them differently, depending on what they are.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

and how did that prayer originally read for centuries until recently changed to less strong language?

I wasn't alive then.

"Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts 2 Corinthians 3:13-16; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord. ('Amen' is not responded, nor is said 'Let us pray', or 'Let us kneel', or 'Arise', but immediately is said:) Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen"

Yes, that was bad. Shame on them.

It was even worse before that, we were the perfidious Jews... "pro perfidis judaeis". the Anglican and Orthodox Churches are no better.

Tsk, tsk. Feel free to pray for the perfidious Catholics if you wish, in revenge. I promise not to mind.

 

[Tez3]

Jenna, I don't know if I can tell you what you want to know, to be being Jewish is who I am, I don't actually think about it in the same way Christians think about their religion. The best I can suggest is getting a couple of Rabbi Lionel Blue's books and having a read especially his 'A Guide to the Here and Hereafter' it probably will make things as clear a mud but it's a good read.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Bob, thank you for sharing. Can I ask please, through your orthodox and otherworldly travels, would you say you currently have a faith? Can I also ask what was the first step or what caused you to take that first step out of the security of your Episcopal upbringing and into the enforced uncertainty of the agnostic? And because I am interested, can I also ask without annoying you, how would you say your travels with faith and through faith in its various incarnations informs your life, your choices and demeanour right now? Am I seeing you as a Faith Tourist? Or do you stop and abide a while in a place? Thank you for sharing your journey. It must certainly have given you a wide perspective over the landscape. I am grateful to learn and would like to know more

I wouldn't call it a 'faith' so much as a 'belief system'. Read enough of the stuff I post in the Study, toss out the obvious sarcasm and stuff posted whem my heads not clear, and you can get a good read....plus I also posted it in my little corner I think.

First step away was questioning. I asked questions, didn't care for the answers, and started thinking. Think on most of this stuff long enough and it's mostly tribal superstitions mixed in with health codes. Remove that....you get some nice shiny stuff. I found the ceremony's boring, skipped them, and hid in the church basement's sunday school reading everything they had. Comics, bibles, prayer books, hymnals, etc. End result was constantly being top of my classes, lol.

I think my exploration, willingness to question, and willingness to not take 'because the book says so' pisses some off, but gives me a more enriched perspective.

In high school I was a member for 3 years with their Bible club. Years later the group I was in Amway with were all 'Born Again', and I spent -alot- of time with both groups, in deep discussions. Deeper than most on here in fact. I've watched a thousand or more hours of documentary and archeology shows dealing with early Christianity.

The more I learn, the more I change my 'belief'. It's why I don't think any 1 faith is right, but none are really wrong. Just different.

I wouldn't say I'm a tourist....just constantly evolving. It's like, eating at a mega buffet. Some people will only eat what they know. Others try everything. I'm the later.

I've had experiences...some good, some not so good, some down right terrifying. Some deeper than I can explain.

 

[Tez3]

I wasn't alive then.



Yes, that was bad. Shame on them.



Tsk, tsk. Feel free to pray for the perfidious Catholics if you wish, in revenge. I promise not to mind.

You weren't alive in 1955? I must be a lot older than you then lol!

I think I might have to pray for Americans anyway, for deliverance from pink slime.. Sorry it was in our newspapers today and we can't believe you eat that stuff!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

You weren't alive in 1955? I must be a lot older than you then lol!

I think I might have to pray for Americans anyway, for deliverance from pink slime.. Sorry it was in our newspapers today and we can't believe you eat that stuff!

Ehh, it tastes like chicken.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You weren't alive in 1955? I must be a lot older than you then lol!

I was born in 1961. I'm pretty sure I didn't attend any Good Friday Masses prior to that. Sorry.

I think I might have to pray for Americans anyway, for deliverance from pink slime.. Sorry it was in our newspapers today and we can't believe you eat that stuff!

I was shocked as well.

 

[Jenna]

Jenna, I don't know if I can tell you what you want to know, to be being Jewish is who I am, I don't actually think about it in the same way Christians think about their religion. The best I can suggest is getting a couple of Rabbi Lionel Blue's books and having a read especially his 'A Guide to the Here and Hereafter' it probably will make things as clear a mud but it's a good read.

I will do that though it seems a little difficult to locate even on Amazon or ebay and but thank you for pointing me to this Tez. I will not harangue you any more and I do appreciate you taking time to post here. I wish you well.

 

[Jenna]

I wouldn't call it a 'faith' so much as a 'belief system'. Read enough of the stuff I post in the Study, toss out the obvious sarcasm and stuff posted whem my heads not clear, and you can get a good read....plus I also posted it in my little corner I think.

First step away was questioning. I asked questions, didn't care for the answers, and started thinking. Think on most of this stuff long enough and it's mostly tribal superstitions mixed in with health codes. Remove that....you get some nice shiny stuff. I found the ceremony's boring, skipped them, and hid in the church basement's sunday school reading everything they had. Comics, bibles, prayer books, hymnals, etc. End result was constantly being top of my classes, lol.

I think my exploration, willingness to question, and willingness to not take 'because the book says so' pisses some off, but gives me a more enriched perspective.

In high school I was a member for 3 years with their Bible club. Years later the group I was in Amway with were all 'Born Again', and I spent -alot- of time with both groups, in deep discussions. Deeper than most on here in fact. I've watched a thousand or more hours of documentary and archeology shows dealing with early Christianity.

The more I learn, the more I change my 'belief'. It's why I don't think any 1 faith is right, but none are really wrong. Just different.

I wouldn't say I'm a tourist....just constantly evolving. It's like, eating at a mega buffet. Some people will only eat what they know. Others try everything. I'm the later.

I've had experiences...some good, some not so good, some down right terrifying. Some deeper than I can explain.

Bob reading this I picture you an eagle high above the landscape of faith that is rotating towards the curved horizon below. When you touch down it is only to take what you need for sustenance? I do not know if that is an appropriate allegory? I am feeling a distance between you and faith maybe like the Architect in the film the Matrix.. you know this episode?? The person who oversees.. the conductor of the orchestra. I do not know.. your explanation is like a ready-written memoir that I would read and be intrigued. If you dip into everything at the buffet do you develop a taste for all cuisines of the earth instead of a sophisticated and discerning palate for the cannolis of little Italy or the figs of the desert? Is one way better than the other? It is maybe like saying that cross training many arts and extracting the best techniques from each is better than just one art with its obvious defensive flaws? Is that an appropriate analogy?

Bob, can I ask, what are you an expert in?

And what shiny stuff do you find underneath the dross of tribal superstitions? And why is its shine insufficient? And what would need to happen to make that shine sufficient for you?

I have a lot of questions. I do not know if you are ok to answer and but thank you for sharing. Your journey is one that is intriguing to me for so many reasons. Thank you again.

 

[CanuckMA]

Jenna, I don't know if I can tell you what you want to know, to be being Jewish is who I am, I don't actually think about it in the same way Christians think about their religion. The best I can suggest is getting a couple of Rabbi Lionel Blue's books and having a read especially his 'A Guide to the Here and Hereafter' it probably will make things as clear a mud but it's a good read.

That is one of the things that are hard to grasp about Judaism. We are a people, mostly born into it. I did not choose to be Jewish. I just am. Torah is more than a Holy book. It is also a civil law code. It is instructions for daily life. There is little I do on a daily basis that does not remind me of what I am. From what I wear, to what I eat, or do not eat, to the way I act.

We are a communty. I used to rravel a fair bit. Whenever I found myself out of town on Shabbat, I would just head to the nearest shul, and immediately received many invitation to share Shabbat dinner, and often to stay over if my hotel was to far to walk.

We are a continuing tradition. Torah is still read from scrolls, handwritten on animal skins. Friday next week, I will be sitting with my family for the first Seder. I will know that jews all over the world are doing the same. Using the same text. As we have done for the last 2,000 years. It is an incredibly powerful sentiment.

As Tez said, our belief in G-d is not faith, it is knowledge. As a people, we have experienced G-d. We stood at Sinai when He gave us His Torah.

 

[Sukerkin]

I usually hate to respond to posts by 'itemised' snippets {I term it "Bullet Point Wars" as it gives the appearance of being antagonistic} but Bill's post was so content-rich I reckoned it'd be too muddled to try and give my response in a more normally paragraphed way. I certainly don't mean it to seem antagonistic and I think Bill and me know and respect each other well enough for strongly expressed views to be considered on their merits rather than causing offence.

Wheelp, let's see. I don't go around telling atheists that they are stupid not to believe in God. I don't care if they do or not, it's entirely their business.

Quite right ... tho' they are of course quite right :lol:

But I've got a couple of FB friends who are atheists who seem to delight in posting things like "See what your imaginary wish-granting sky-fairy did this time?" Yes, very amusing. Oh, wait, I mean, very childish. For people who say they simply don't believe in God for themselves, they seem to have a strong, perhaps uncontrollable urge to attempt to offend as many Christians as possible.

Well I've said much the same myself before now. It's not an urge to offend that drives such things, at least not for me, it is more akin to an intolerant aggravation; a tired refusal to give credence to the iterative superstitious beliefs of people who are supposed to be adults. Most of the time I don't say such things here any more as I found that the 'fundamentalists' (small 'f') in America are actually offended by such words {in a :grrr: way rather than a :tsk: way} and I see no pleasure or and certainly no gain in annoying believers to a state of anger just for the sake of it. It's not like by being dismissive I'm going to get them to change their minds; rather the reverse I would think.

I mean, all joking aside, I am defined at least partially by what I believe. I cannot imagine being defined by what I do NOT believe. In other words, religion is part of my life; but how is the absence of religion part of anyone's life? How do you embrace what you don't believe instead of what you do? I'm not saying atheism is wrong, meetings about it seem like caring about a null void. Here is where God would be if I believed in and loved Him. I don't, so I love this empty spot where He would be instead. Huh?

I think that's faulty logic, my friend. An absence of willingness to believe in a divinity is not a void. After all, all the concept of God is is a primitive {in the historical anthropological sense} attempt to explain, without evidence, how the universe and us came into being. Leaving aside all other science, the twin prongs of just cosmology and evolutionary theory alone do a much more convincing job of that, incomplete as they yet are; for they are based on observation and hypothesis testing rather than pure assertion.

On a more practical note, as I've stated earlier, all of us have the right to try to live in a society that reflects our values; religious or otherwise. And while atheists are often unhappy with state-supported religious trappings (and by the way, I frequently agree with them, surprise), some atheists have an agenda that includes dismantling religion, not just keeping a strong wall between Church and State. Are they a threat to me? Sure they are! They have the right to try to get their agenda passed, and I have the right to try to stop them from doing so.

Aye. I stand with you in this, even tho' I think what you believe, or rather the institutional structure such beliefs spawn, is wrong and essentially harmful to human-kind as a whole.

That does not make all atheists my enemy. But those who would try to tear down religious institutions or control them, yeah, pretty much. They are a threat to me because I do not want what they want. And I have the right to both feel that way and to work to stop them by casting my votes against that nonsense.

Just when I think that you're getting a bit too hot-headed about it all, you go and get me to agree with you again :lol:.

But like I said. There are atheists who just don't believe in God - that's cool. There are atheists who dislike religion - fine with me. And there are atheists who seem to have a problem with religious people, go out of their way to be insulting and crass, and then there are those atheists who actively try to destroy religion through political means. So I do treat them differently, depending on what they are.

That's the application of good sense :nods:.

 

[Gemini]

Thank you for your contribution.

I offer ramblings on this. Nothing worth thanks or response I think.

I have to say I believe in God, but have no idea why. I'm inclined to think it has more to do with years of ingraining and less to do with any practical reason, which is an essential element for me to process. There are just too many practical reasons denying the existence of a single superior entity. But still I do. Go figure.

It completely evades me as to why people would argue about, much less kill for, a religion or religious point of view, yet throughout history, it's probably the number one reason for premature death of men, and yet through thousands of years of existence, we have not "evolved" one bit. Because I don't really care what others believe, I just can't see myself getting upset by their religious views. It's totally lost on me. Go in peace. Really. So I ask myself why did I read though, and then respond to this entire thread. Because though it's not worth much, it offers a different (if not cloudy) perspective I suppose.

I have great respect for those who are firm in their beliefs. Even jealous at times I think.

It annoys the crap out of me when people "praise God" or "praise Allah" or whoever when they experience a moment of good fortune like winning a game or something equally trivial in matters of the universe. I'm pretty sure if there is an almighty entity, he/she/it has bigger issues. To assume "it's all about us" is simple arrogance. Hey! God created 14,000 new galaxies today and still found time to make sure I won a free coke in the McDonald's scratch off! Praise God! I want to vomit.

I always enjoy listening to the Dalai Lama, though Buddhism has never called me. He always makes me happy and I would love to see through his eyes just once.

I do not practice a religion. In days gone by, I would tell people i'm not religious, I'm a Christian. I don't want people praying for me. I'm not broken; I'm in transit. To where, I have no idea, but I know there's a place for me. Do not solicit me with your religion, I'll shut right down. Your path is not mine. It's the only thing about religion that I am sure about. At least today.

 

[oftheherd1]

Are you so sure then that you are right and I'm wrong? I'm a Jew and Jesus was a Jew so really why are you not following what he was, why so sure that an 'unbeliever' like myself is so wrong? By thinking I'm an unbeliever how is that not anti semitism? You want me to change my race, my culture, my tribe, my people to become one of you. That's as about anti as you can get.

Well, Jesus was indeed a Jew. However, as a Christian, I follow the teachings of Jesus from the New Testament as well. So I would say I am following what he was. You obviously disagree. That is your right. I don't think of it as anti-semitism because I think the usual understanding of that word would be that I wish to do you some harm beyond seeing you accept my beliefs as yours, or hold back your civil liberties, only because you are Jewish. I don't want to change your race, culture, tribe or people. For the same reason I am not anti-other religions unless as Bill mentioned, I perceive them as trying to do me harm. For curiosity, how do you view messianic Jews?

BTW, I do know of the tribes of Israel from the Bible, but don't recall anyone actually saying what tribe they were. What tribe are you?

I think that you are wrong as an American, I shall pray that you leave American and all it's evils and become British, that you forsake everything American, that you forget you were ever an American and you speak with a British accent you eat fish and chips, bet on the dogs, read The Sun and never say a good word about America ever again. See it doesn't work does it? We are as G-d meant us to be, to try to convert people is against His wishes.

You may pray as you wish. I think it would be a waste of your time, but you are free to do so. I will not be angry with you.

The thing we aren't free to have our beliefs because you want to change us, you feel it encumbant on you to change me because you believe I'm in the wrong. Btw if Jews are excluded from a synagogue they will just go either to another one or start one themselves. Judaism isn't like the Catholic Church for example having an actual organisation.
I don't 'chose' to believe in the 'Old Testament', I know it exists so no belief needed, it's the history and texts of my people. To read something into them that's not there or to change the meanings of what is written to suit another's religion is just wrong frankly. You'd get annoyed if I started misquoting the American Constitution, taking it over and readng stuff into it and telling you I'm right so why do you do it with our texts, our constitition if you like.

Well, I might be annoyed, or just curious as to your motive. But I have not misquoted the Old Testament that I know of. It is Holy to Christians as well, also being God's word. If I did misquote it, I would hope you would correct me. If I disagreed with your statement as to my misquoting it, I would hope we could discuss it with civility.

That is one of the things that are hard to grasp about Judaism. We are a people, mostly born into it. I did not choose to be Jewish. I just am. Torah is more than a Holy book. It is also a civil law code. It is instructions for daily life. There is little I do on a daily basis that does not remind me of what I am. From what I wear, to what I eat, or do not eat, to the way I act.

We are a communty. I used to rravel a fair bit. Whenever I found myself out of town on Shabbat, I would just head to the nearest shul, and immediately received many invitation to share Shabbat dinner, and often to stay over if my hotel was to far to walk.

We are a continuing tradition. Torah is still read from scrolls, handwritten on animal skins. Friday next week, I will be sitting with my family for the first Seder. I will know that jews all over the world are doing the same. Using the same text. As we have done for the last 2,000 years. It is an incredibly powerful sentiment.

As Tez said, our belief in G-d is not faith, it is knowledge. As a people, we have experienced G-d. We stood at Sinai when He gave us His Torah.

I would say Christians also know God, and have experienced God through Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Where you would say you stood at Sinai, we would say we have been to the cross, having been washed in the blood of Jesus.

I hope none of the above is taken as argumentative as that is not how I have meant it. In the event I have said something that you consider so, please let me know.