Empty Hands
Senior Master
How so? And if that is true, why such a strong and angry reaction to atheist arguments?
Do you claim any religious faith? / How are you on sharing?
- Thread starter Jenna
- Start date
How so? And if that is true, why such a strong and angry reaction to atheist arguments?
Jenna, personally I've had a great deal more than one experience of people trying to convert me, and we have here an organisation dedicated to just that act called Jews for Jesus, they target Jewish schools, Jewish old people's homes and even places of worship. Historically well, there's few Christian organisations who haven't tried to convert us at one time or another, one reason I'm happy with atheists is that they don't try to convert me!
Instructor, I really, really don't want anyone praying for me, it is arrogant to be honest if you are praying to the diety of my religion who you've subsumed in your beliefs. I tend to think it's one of those things that can come across as patronising 'I'll pray for you'. why? do you think I can't talk to G-d or that I may not say the 'right' things or only certain people are listened to? I'm not being confrontational, I actually do find it a bit disturbing. I do realise there can be kindness in the intent but it's unnecessary to do this. I think this is one of the things that atheists may find religious people annoying is this attitude of benificence they can radiate when trying to convert someone, it can be also be an air of superiority. One thing we as Jews do believe is that G-d made us as He wanted us, so if someone is another religion or of no religion that's how it's supposed to be so one shouldn't go against what G-d intended!
Instructor, I really, really don't want anyone praying for me, it is arrogant to be honest if you are praying to the diety of my religion who you've subsumed in your beliefs. I tend to think it's one of those things that can come across as patronising 'I'll pray for you'. why? do you think I can't talk to G-d or that I may not say the 'right' things or only certain people are listened to? I'm not being confrontational, I actually do find it a bit disturbing. I do realise there can be kindness in the intent but it's unnecessary to do this. I think this is one of the things that atheists may find religious people annoying is this attitude of benificence they can radiate when trying to convert someone, it can be also be an air of superiority. One thing we as Jews do believe is that G-d made us as He wanted us, so if someone is another religion or of no religion that's how it's supposed to be so one shouldn't go against what G-d intended!
Exactly! I see no threat to anyone from being an atheist, it harms no one least of all the atheist. I don't even see them as wrong, it's not for me but it doesn't make me the one who's right, it's only right for me.
Well it was our 'Bible' first and it's our G-d you worship so perhaps the Jews are the strongest? You may need to brush up on your kosher cooking and start listening to your mothers!
Seriously though for a minute, Jesus if he came back would be an Orthodox Jew still, so how would that change or colour your beliefs? he kept all the High Holidays, ate kosher and was a Rabbi, everything he said was already in what you call the Old Testament, he was a Jew through and through. His non Jewish followers may have taken over and changed things but he would still worship in a shul rather than a church surely.
I'm an Orthodox Jew. My faith is part of my life. Everything I do is imbued by my faith. And I can't hide it. The kipa is a dead give away. I came to it after a secular upbrigning. Tez had put it quite eloquently, as usual. I also come at the 'love' of Xtians from a different angle. I grew up in the French neighbourhoods of Montreal during the 60s and 70s. I went to public school, that meant Catholic school. I learned very quickly to hide my identity. I'm fortunate to have a 'generic' name. Easter was not a fun time for me. Filled with the "Jews killed Jesus" rethoric.
I have reached the point where I've had it up to here with Xtians trying to argue the meaning of MY sacred texts. I'm sorry, but if you can't read the original language, you don't really know what it says.
I have reached the point where I've had it up to here with Xtians trying to argue the meaning of MY sacred texts. I'm sorry, but if you can't read the original language, you don't really know what it says.
I've long said my path was a long and winding one. I grew up Episcopal. Went agnostic in high school, spent a little time following Lavey, became Born Again, decided I got it right the first time and 'back slid', heard the Call of the Goddess, then decided that pondering The Way was what was needed to fix my Confusian. But living in the cold north-east I aimed for warmer climates so hitched a ride with Apollo on his charriot stopping off to walk along the Nile with Isis, Anubis and Bast. But I was called eastward again to Dance with Shivah. Now I find that No Mind is a pleasing thought while I seek Inner Wisdom. Soon I'll move along the path again, where too I don't know, but regardless I know I will continue to grow as I Walk.
Along the way I've met many good people, had many a deep discussion and heated argument. I've read more scripture, from more dead cultures that I've read Star Trek novels, and I have 2 book cases of those.
My thinking is balanced by logic, some say heresy, some say fantasy. I don't believe that any one religion is correct. I think all are right, for some, but none right for all. A world as diverse as ours couldn't have any one religion be correct any more than we have 1 tree or 1 flower. We just are.
My personal experiences, which I share with few in detail, tell me that there is something out there. But it's beyond our ability to understand right now, that 'we will understand when we get there'.
If you wish to pray for me, I am not offended. If you wish to 'send positive energy', regardless of it's form, it's always appreciated. That someone takes the time to think of me, is always warming. If they take the time to curse me, I know I'm winning.
An Ye Harm None, Do As Ye Wish.
Namaste.
:asian:
Along the way I've met many good people, had many a deep discussion and heated argument. I've read more scripture, from more dead cultures that I've read Star Trek novels, and I have 2 book cases of those.
My thinking is balanced by logic, some say heresy, some say fantasy. I don't believe that any one religion is correct. I think all are right, for some, but none right for all. A world as diverse as ours couldn't have any one religion be correct any more than we have 1 tree or 1 flower. We just are.
My personal experiences, which I share with few in detail, tell me that there is something out there. But it's beyond our ability to understand right now, that 'we will understand when we get there'.
If you wish to pray for me, I am not offended. If you wish to 'send positive energy', regardless of it's form, it's always appreciated. That someone takes the time to think of me, is always warming. If they take the time to curse me, I know I'm winning.
An Ye Harm None, Do As Ye Wish.
Namaste.
:asian:
OP
- Thread Starter
- #27
@Tez3 and @CanuckMA,
All I know is that I have a limited exposure to the Jewish faith and *I* would be interested in hearing and learning more of the positive aspects of your faith. I am sure there are a great many.
I can only speak for myself and but I have never seen sense in trying to pull the rug of faith from under the feet of someone and I am sorry that you have been at the pointed end of unpleasantness.
I would be grateful if only for me that you would share some of the good things that your faith has given you as it is a testament to you and how you live your lives through your faith and is an example to everyone else. That is all I am interested in. I am sad when people are angry when talking of their faith or their atheism. I am sorry if this thread seems flippant or trivial. I only seek to share something positive that each of us has in our faith and would be happy if you felt inclined to explain the good things that your faith brings to you in your life. And but I understand that we are all different. I know not everyone is like me in these things. Sometimes I feel naive when I post a thread like this and look back and see a wake of anger behind. I understand this. I hope you are both well.
All I know is that I have a limited exposure to the Jewish faith and *I* would be interested in hearing and learning more of the positive aspects of your faith. I am sure there are a great many.
I can only speak for myself and but I have never seen sense in trying to pull the rug of faith from under the feet of someone and I am sorry that you have been at the pointed end of unpleasantness.
I would be grateful if only for me that you would share some of the good things that your faith has given you as it is a testament to you and how you live your lives through your faith and is an example to everyone else. That is all I am interested in. I am sad when people are angry when talking of their faith or their atheism. I am sorry if this thread seems flippant or trivial. I only seek to share something positive that each of us has in our faith and would be happy if you felt inclined to explain the good things that your faith brings to you in your life. And but I understand that we are all different. I know not everyone is like me in these things. Sometimes I feel naive when I post a thread like this and look back and see a wake of anger behind. I understand this. I hope you are both well.
How can you share something with me you took from us in the first place? What you think of as the Old Testament is our texts, our writings, our history. When you read about characters in your Bible are they your ancestors? No, they are mine. You follow the teachings of a Jew, a practising and what would be an Orthodox one in this day and age. The G-d you worship is the G-d of the Hebrews, of the Jews so why pray for me to Him? Jesus said nothing that wasn't in the 'Old Testament' not every what he said on the cross, he believed what we believe and that includes what happens at the end of the world.
Now I'll happily concede that as Jews we may be totally wrong but if we are so are you because you have purloined someone elses G-d and texts, mixed them up a bit and now declaim them as being the only truth. It may be A truth but certainly isn't the only one so yes I do have the right to disgree because you have bastardised my religion and that of the man you follow, it's the latter that is the most ironic when you say you want to convert us.
Like Canuck I get prickly at this time of year coming up to Easter, same reasons and every reason not to look at those who wish us to convert to this 'born again' movement with any love. doing things for 'your own good' is downright patronising.
I would say if you are going to obey the 'Bible' you ought to be eating kosher, keeping all the commandments not just a measly ten etc etc not just cherry picking the bits you like and leaving atheists alone. It's what Jesus did after all as a Jew.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
I agree, we really should be stoning those rebellious children who won't get off my lawn.
I've long said my path was a long and winding one. I grew up Episcopal. Went agnostic in high school, spent a little time following Lavey, became Born Again, decided I got it right the first time and 'back slid', heard the Call of the Goddess, then decided that pondering The Way was what was needed to fix my Confusian. But living in the cold north-east I aimed for warmer climates so hitched a ride with Apollo on his charriot stopping off to walk along the Nile with Isis, Anubis and Bast. But I was called eastward again to Dance with Shivah. Now I find that No Mind is a pleasing thought while I seek Inner Wisdom. Soon I'll move along the path again, where too I don't know, but regardless I know I will continue to grow as I Walk.
Along the way I've met many good people, had many a deep discussion and heated argument. I've read more scripture, from more dead cultures that I've read Star Trek novels, and I have 2 book cases of those.
My thinking is balanced by logic, some say heresy, some say fantasy. I don't believe that any one religion is correct. I think all are right, for some, but none right for all. A world as diverse as ours couldn't have any one religion be correct any more than we have 1 tree or 1 flower. We just are.
My personal experiences, which I share with few in detail, tell me that there is something out there. But it's beyond our ability to understand right now, that 'we will understand when we get there'.
If you wish to pray for me, I am not offended. If you wish to 'send positive energy', regardless of it's form, it's always appreciated. That someone takes the time to think of me, is always warming. If they take the time to curse me, I know I'm winning.
An Ye Harm None, Do As Ye Wish.
Namaste.
:asian:
When Christians pray for us it's that we 'see the light' and convert that's why it's offensive. We are the damned Jews, we have to be saved, there's no positive energy coming our way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Prayer_for_the_Jews
I was not angry, merely stating what I believe. From the Christian perspective life and death without God leads to suffering. It needn't be your perspective but it's mine. Again, not angry, just talking about what I believe in a matter of factual sort of way.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
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Yes, now I understand what you are saying about people being unhappy. At least I do partly. But I would think that might indicate a lack of complete commitment. We are human, and must at times deal with the adamic nature we have. It will be a struggle, but we should want to continue to perservere in the right.
Tez, its because of you Jews that I am right now drinking a damn delicious glass of Kosher Coca Cola.
I wouldn't trade you lot for all the tea in Hong Kong.
Empty Hands
Senior Master
No, I know you weren't angry. I was asking, if atheists are a threat only to themselves, then why do some Christians react to atheists in such an angry and strong way? That implies they are a threat. If someone is not a threat, it doesn't seem like anyone would pay them any attention.
How am I suffering without God? I'm reasonably happy and healthy, I just moved to a new home with a great new job and my wife and I are working on a family. Meanwhile, some Christians I know are miserable. Doesn't really compute.
How long have you got? It's more than a faith, we are a race of people, in the UK and many other places in Europe this is set in law. I was told many years ago that Christians believe in G-d, Jews don't, they know there's a G-d so it's not a belief as such but much more. We have a Covenant, a bargain, with G-d we keep our side maybe not so well, he keeps his better, we argue with Him, he's one of us yet not but we have a very personal relationship with Him. Christians I think are the only ones who talk about it being 'faith', the older religions as with ours it just is.
Patently untrue, at least for me, I pray for a multitude of things. Sometimes I just want them to find peace in their relationships or I pray that someone's marriage will work out. I've prayed that maybe a person's disease will get miraculously cured or perhaps they will suffer less.
I don’t do the anti-Semitism thing. The entire early church including Jesus were Jews.
I do pray that an unbeliever will find belief, but I don’t chase them around trying to upset or offend them. It's generally a private thing. If somebody gets angry or offended I just drop the subject and remember them in my prayers privately.
Tez, its because of you Jews that I am right now drinking a damn delicious glass of Kosher Coca Cola.
I wouldn't trade you lot for all the tea in Hong Kong.
You're welcome! what about that pink slime we've been reading about?
However a week on Friday Christians all over the world are going to be praying that we abandon our lives and join their 'faith', it's not as though they are even polite about it!
Bill M, as a Catholic will you be saying the prayer that condemns and asks that we convert?
Re Pink Slime. I keep hoping they retire from Congress.
Re; joining faiths. You can all join mine. It's called Fritzianity, and it involves petting a house cat named Fritz who thinks hes the universe. When scritched the universe is at peace, when he's not, it's not pretty.
Re; joining faiths. You can all join mine. It's called Fritzianity, and it involves petting a house cat named Fritz who thinks hes the universe. When scritched the universe is at peace, when he's not, it's not pretty.
oftheherd1
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Well it was our 'Bible' first and it's our G-d you worship so perhaps the Jews are the strongest? You may need to brush up on your kosher cooking and start listening to your mothers!
Seriously though for a minute, Jesus if he came back would be an Orthodox Jew still, so how would that change or colour your beliefs? he kept all the High Holidays, ate kosher and was a Rabbi, everything he said was already in what you call the Old Testament, he was a Jew through and through. His non Jewish followers may have taken over and changed things but he would still worship in a shul rather than a church surely.
That is your belief. That is OK, you are free to have your beliefs as I am mine. But as I pointed out in my post, my Bible has an Old Testament and a New Testament. You choose to only believe in the Old Testament. I believe in both. In my belief, Jesus was both God and man. As a man, he was indeed a Jew in everything. There is no problem in that. But he was also God manifast as a man to teach us and provide us free salvation. The Bible (the New Testament) as I recollect, does not say the Jesus will return as a man, only that He will return. His first appearance will be in the air to collect those saved. Would he worship in a synagogue or shul? I don't know that he would. As I said, he founded His church, and reading the New Testament makes it appear those jews who believed in him, were not welcomed in the synagogues, but in fact, excluded. But in my belief it is a moot point.
I always (well, almost always) listened to my mother. The kosher cooking I am not required to follow by revelation of God to Peter in the New Testament. If you wish to there is no problem. Daniel made a point of it and it obviously was healthy for him.
I am glad you are not suffering. It brings me joy to know that you are happy and healthy. Conversely I as a Christian am going through a difficult time right now. Faith doesn't guarantee no suffering, in fact quite the opposite sometimes. I can say I never suffer alone
.I find debate to be fairly impossible when it comes to this sort of thing. Most atheist can debate me in circles all day. I am not selling anything or trying to convince you of anything, merely telling you what I believe. In the end I can only witness what I have experienced and how it has shaped my beliefs.
All Christians are on a path, the path isn't the same for everybody or even anybody. Some of us just started down the path and we say and do things that we might not as we go further along. Some have progressed quite far and have peace in their hearts and wisdom.
But, even the wise and loving Christians are still sinners and human beings just like everybody else, we experience all the messy feelings that everybody else does.
For example if an atheist or another person of another religion decided to debate the merits of one belief over another with me I would probably be pretty reasonable about it, so long as they were. But if a similar person tried to espouse those ideas to one of my children when I wasn't around I would likely express anger.
