Do you claim any religious faith? / How are you on sharing?

[Jenna]

I once was one the the Atheist that Bill speaks of. I would go out of my way to make fun of Christians or other religious people more jokingly then hateful but still mean none the less. I would never quote the Bible to them because I thought it was a made up had had no meaning. i thought they were too stupid to see the real world. I saw too many evil and terrible things in my life to believe there could be a god. Going all the way back to when i was 12 a class mate and friend of mine lived 6 houses down from me killed his parents and sister one day with a base ball bat. Ive seen friends gunned down in training accidents in the Marine Corp. Watched recruits shoot themselves when I was a range instructor on Parris Island. Then I became a Police Officer and saw how truly evil people can be to eachother and thought there is no way a god would allow this to happen to his people. I was totally against it all i couldnt understand it. I stuck with this for most of my life. Then about 2 years ago I dont know why or what happened but I just started to see Gods calling. It started out small and slowly. I started to recall several times in my life where I should have been killed, shot, stabbed, and I wasnt for some fluke reason. Case in point I knocked on a door once to serve a warrant on the home owner. Just as I knocked for some reason my badge just fell off my shirt Im not sure how but it did so As I bent down to pick it up the home owner shot thru the door. Had I been standing up it would have hit me in the head. At the time I blamed my seatbelt on undoing the badge clasp and lifting it out of my shirt but now Im not so sure. I recalled others that shoudl have died but didnt. From there it went to getting a new rental car for work and in the CD player was a CD of a pastor giving a sermon. I listen to it for some reason. From there I was introduced to people in my life that were of strong religious faith and they were not pushy but they allowed me to ask question and answered them. Then out of the blue my wife asked that we start going to church which I was against and refused for a while as she went with the kids. Then I started to go to support her but sat in the back with a major attitude. Over time I started to listen to the Pastor and one day I dont know what happened I feel like I woke up. Everything jsut seemed brighter and more alive. I know it shoulds stupid but I actually felt like a weight was lifted off my shoulders. I cant explain it but I decided to join my church and started to pray. Im still very new to all of this so its very exciting and I learn more and more every day. But Im happy and it has changed my behavior, my outlook on life, my relationship with my wife and kids. i would never try to change anyones mind mainly because I dont think you can. Your relationship with God is a personal one and in time You will make your own choice even if it takes God smacking you up side the head a few times saying hey fool Ive been here all along.

Thank you very much for sharing your experiences. I am glad you were able to attribute that event to a calling God has for you I can picture you sitting in the car being sullen I am pleased that things have worked out for you in a way that has given you happiness. I am very grateful that you are able to share your experience so positively, thank you I wonder if it is ok to ask if coming from a position formerly as atheist, do you find you are better able to empathise with those of no faith? How do you feel your previous experience has affected or informs your faith now? Or is it irrelevant to you now? Thank you.

I do see this, or at least I see a sense of "this is what it all means" and while dialog and discussion and even doubt is usually welcome, it is welcome only if it leads back to the formal position of the Church. I'm just not convinced that the Church, the institution built by People, has discovered all the answers. While they have perhaps discovered many answers that are good, I don't believe that anyone holds the monopoly on the divine or the mysterious. And some of the Church's positions on things I absolutely disagree with.



I actually do have notions that something comes after this life, I just cannot hold up proof of what these notions are. I find that if there is a just deity of some sort, one that has created us and actually loves us, then it's a weird notion that we have simply one lifetime to "get it right", and if we fail we may spend eternity in torment. Seems to me there's a whole lot riding on what we do in the span of a lifetime, which is nothing when compared to eternity. This suggests to me that there must be more than one chance to get it right. Hence my notions of running in a cycle of some sort, working things out with at least a few chances to do so. This assumes, of course, the existence of a loving and caring deity. If not, then we just come to an end.



From the time I was quite young, I resisted involvement in the Church. My parents, as I stated, are very devout and pushed for our involvement, and I resented it from a very early age. This resistance never left me, and it became a problem as I became a teenager. I couldn't tolerate it, but in my home there was no room to argue it. So when confirmation time came for me, at around 16 or so, I was hearing the message, "This is YOUR choice to make, this is YOUR committment and relationship with God". But I was not being given a choice, I was simply told that I must do this. So I stepped back and say, "wait a minute, if you are going to tell me that this is my choice, then I will actually choose, and I choose 'NO'". Well, that was the wrong choice, so it turned into a fight. But I simply refused, and eventually they let it go, tho I know they were very very upset by it. But I felt that given my feelings on the matter, and my resistance to it and even resentment to feeling like I was having my arm twisted to do this, it would be hipocritical to go thru it just to make someone else happy.

Thank you again Michael. I can picture you as that teenager and it must have been a complex time for you trying to strike out as an independent young man while wanting still to please your family. I am not surprised you reacted as you did. I wonder if the choice had TRULY been yours might things have been different. We will never know I think. And I understand what you are saying that we are of finite understanding and cannot reasonably be expected to discern the infinite in our lifetimes. I think reincarnation is a central theme with almost all religions though it takes various forms (some obviously not corporeal). I think it is difficult sometimes to discern proof -or proof enough- when we are not clear on what form that proof would take or perhaps we have preconceptions of what proof would be which means we are perhaps looking in the wrong place for proof or for the wrong kind of proof. I do not know if that makes sense.. I have had too much chocolate I think I do appreciate you sharing openly and I am grateful and always happy to learn more.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It's not when you spec do it that it's a problem. Or even some random person on some message board... As has already happened in this very thread, one notes. It's when your own parents do it. It's when your boss does it. It's when presidential candidates tell you you can't be a good citizen. Does it exist? Certainly. I'm sorry you feel tarred, but some will fire in all directions when surrounded. These are the beliefs we are regularly confronted with.

I guess I'm collateral damage. My religion annoys some atheists, and since they can't yell at their bosses, parents, or political candidates, I'm a good substitute. Lovely.

It's not really a problem though. I have a thick skin, I can take it. Fair warning, I fire back and expect those who give me grief over my religion to take it as good as they dish it out.

 

[Steve]

Jenna, I don't think anyone's ever taken advantage, at least on a personal level.

One thing I think is interesting that's coming out in the discussion is that some people value the sharing of their beliefs, and feel that it's their duty to try and help other people come to what they believe is a revealing of some great truth.

Other people value restraint and don't want to be proselytized to by their friends or acquaintances all the time.

My point is that these are both values. One is not more "right" than the other. The way I see it, if part of your belief system is to remind me that we disagree every time we get together, I don't care. I can see that it might become irritating if it's overdone, but as Instructor (who seems to be in this camp) said, "In the end alienating people and losing friends is simply counterproductive. Better to try to just be a good and loving friend. Demonstrate faith through your example and when you fall short be honest about it." That's been my experience, too. If I'm assertive but friendly, my Christian friends will back off. Bringing me to God is like trying to grow grass in the sand.

Conversely, I would never presume to tell them that they're wrong. What business is it of mine?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bringing me to God is like trying to grow grass in the sand.

You mean like this?


Native grass growing in sand by hoolsmum, on Flickr

Sorry, just having fun.

 

[Steve]

You mean like this?


Native grass growing in sand by hoolsmum, on Flickr

Sorry, just having fun.

Exactly like that. That scraggly, scruffy looking piece of what is only technically in the family of "grass" is my spirituality.



THAT'S what my friends WANT to make of it. It all works out, though.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Exactly like that. That scraggly, scruffy looking piece of what is only technically in the family of "grass" is my spirituality.

THAT'S what my friends WANT to make of it. It all works out, though.

Touche!

 

[ballen0351]

I wonder if it is ok to ask if coming from a position formerly as atheist, do you find you are better able to empathise with those of no faith? How do you feel your previous experience has affected or informs your faith now? Or is it irrelevant to you now? Thank you.

I dont think you can ever say anything to a person to change their mind. If a person is steadfast in a belief that there is no God then they are the only ones that can change it. The best thing a person of faith can do is learn as much as you can and be ready to answer legitimate questions from someone that really wants to learn. Im not taling about getting into a religious argument with someone that does not believe and wont believe because thats pointless.I for one am still new and trying to learn myself so I cant answer alot all I can do is point them to people that know more then I do. As for how it effects my faith now well it has answered alot of questions Ive had. I dont feel sorry for anyone that has not found God yet however I feel bad that I waisted so much time in my life denying something instead of embracing it. I look forward to learning more so that someday I may be able to help someone else.

 

[Jenna]

Jenna, I don't think anyone's ever taken advantage, at least on a personal level.

One thing I think is interesting that's coming out in the discussion is that some people value the sharing of their beliefs, and feel that it's their duty to try and help other people come to what they believe is a revealing of some great truth.

Other people value restraint and don't want to be proselytized to by their friends or acquaintances all the time.

My point is that these are both values. One is not more "right" than the other. The way I see it, if part of your belief system is to remind me that we disagree every time we get together, I don't care. I can see that it might become irritating if it's overdone, but as Instructor (who seems to be in this camp) said, "In the end alienating people and losing friends is simply counterproductive. Better to try to just be a good and loving friend. Demonstrate faith through your example and when you fall short be honest about it." That's been my experience, too. If I'm assertive but friendly, my Christian friends will back off. Bringing me to God is like trying to grow grass in the sand.

Conversely, I would never presume to tell them that they're wrong. What business is it of mine?

I hear your points and they are well made. I cannot tell if you are irked by what you have read though that is my perception through your writing. If that is so, then I am sorry if that has happened through reading what is here. My intention was to encourage sharing of the positives of having a faith and by the same token I am happy to share discussion with any faith at any level or those favouring atheism no matter how steadfast in their belief as long as discussion is open minded. People and their experiences are a continual source of learning to me. And I am grateful for everyone.

I will not hear though that it is a bad thing for me to ask others to share openly simply because I am interested in learning.

I sense perhaps that you are equating the desire to share with a desire to proselytise? I can only speak for myself and say in my case that is not correct. I like to share because it is my nature to connect. That is all. We are all different. Some prefer solitude some prefer gregariousness. I like to share. I would rather find common ground than identify differences.

I do not like the kinds of nitpicking and factionalism that is present in forms here. I do not like proselytising as it is a facile pursuit. I do not like the sanctimoniousness of belief whether that is an active belief or a destructive one. I do not care what faith someone professes. Nor do I care if they profess none. We are all people. We are all trying to achieve the same end. Bickering over whose way is the right way shows a lack of apprehension.

There is NO right way. There is only the right way for any particular individual.

That is my view.

There is nothing wrong with a simple request to share experience though. I will stand by that.

Thank you.

 

[cdunn]

I will say this about atheists. If, when I die, I simply cease to exist, then I will not have the ability to admit I was wrong about religion, nor will they be able to 'neener neener' me from their own graves. If, however, I awaken in some kind of afterlife, I will laugh my *** off at the atheists. My bet that religion exists has a payoff. Theirs has none (Pascal's Wager).

Religion, and its attendant rituals and doctrines, has a price in the here and now, and saving that price against the (imo, extreme unlikelihood) of God's existance is a form of payoff. The rituals consume resources. Doctrines imposed can cause harm - both self inflicted, and against others, all in the chance that Pascal's poor wager will pay off. If we both wake up in Xibalba, we both lost.

 

[Steve]

I hear your points and they are well made. I cannot tell if you are irked by what you have read though that is my perception through your writing. If that is so, then I am sorry if that has happened through reading what is here. My intention was to encourage sharing of the positives of having a faith and by the same token I am happy to share discussion with any faith at any level or those favouring atheism no matter how steadfast in their belief as long as discussion is open minded. People and their experiences are a continual source of learning to me. And I am grateful for everyone.

I will not hear though that it is a bad thing for me to ask others to share openly simply because I am interested in learning.

I sense perhaps that you are equating the desire to share with a desire to proselytise? I can only speak for myself and say in my case that is not correct. I like to share because it is my nature to connect. That is all. We are all different. Some prefer solitude some prefer gregariousness. I like to share. I would rather find common ground than identify differences.

I do not like the kinds of nitpicking and factionalism that is present in forms here. I do not like proselytising as it is a facile pursuit. I do not like the sanctimoniousness of belief whether that is an active belief or a destructive one. I do not care what faith someone professes. Nor do I care if they profess none. We are all people. We are all trying to achieve the same end. Bickering over whose way is the right way shows a lack of apprehension.

There is NO right way. There is only the right way for any particular individual.

That is my view.

There is nothing wrong with a simple request to share experience though. I will stand by that.

Thank you.

I'm not irked at all! This thread is about sharing. But what seemed to be a common theme is that people get upset when their friends try to convert them. As I said before, this usually doesn't upset me, but I've found that in real life people are usually pretty understanding. If they're really your friends.

I'm really only saying that there are two discussions taking place. One is about religion and religious beliefs and the other is about communication and interpersonal skills.

But of course I'm not irked. In fact, I'm a little irked that you would suggest that I was irked. Actually, scratch that. I'm more vexed than irked.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Religion, and its attendant rituals and doctrines, has a price in the here and now, and saving that price against the (imo, extreme unlikelihood) of God's existance is a form of payoff. The rituals consume resources. Doctrines imposed can cause harm - both self inflicted, and against others, all in the chance that Pascal's poor wager will pay off. If we both wake up in Xibalba, we both lost.

Although I don't agree with all of Pascal's logic, he argued that even if one did not believe in (in his case, Catholicism), but lived as if one did, one received a benefit during their lifetime, and beyond if indeed there was an afterlife. He believe that behaving in certain ways that conformed to religious norms of his day were worthwhile.

I do see your point; however, there are pros and cons. Not all religious laws I observe harm me or others; some, I accept, may be seen that way. A requirement to give alms would seem to be a requirement that harms none; a requirement to attempt to convert others might be seen as harmful and certainly has been so in the past (when done at the point of a sword).

Civil laws imposed can also impose harm, though, as well as morals which we all, religion and non, accept (to a greater or lesser extent) as worthwhile. In other words, one is not free to live unfettered of restraints, whether imposed by religious beliefs and rules, the laws of man, or simply societal agreement (morals, ethics, homeowners' association rules, you name it, etc). Religion is just one of many things which limit choice or seek to impose choices on others.

 

[Jenna]

Unfortunately, there has been no continuation of practice from earlier times to the present day. The last known temple of the Old Faith was in Uppsala, Sweden, and it was closed in the 1100's, IIRC. What we have left are the eddas, the sagas, and external writings by Roman writers who visited those tribes. We also have writing by churchmen of the day saying "don't you xyz", so we often take that as we should be doing xyz since the church wouldn't have frowned on practices no one adhered to.

Back in the day, each household practiced their own way. So it is today. It's not my business what someone else does. It is a somewhat existential faith when you get right down to it.

Our ethical guidance comes from the writings tempered by our own common sense. No one goes viking today, even if the practice was lauded back then. We examine the writings and apply them to our lives. What has become common is the adherence to the Nine Noble Virtues. There were codified by the Odinic Rite and have become pretty common shorthand for Heathen ethics. They are as follows:

Courage
Truth
Honour
Fidelity
Discipline
Hospitality
Self Reliance
Industriousness
Perseverance

You get the basic idea. There are two main rituals, Sumbel and Blot. Varying communities celebrate them differently. You'll have to look them up to get an idea of what they might be like. Yule and Veteran's Day are usually honoured as well. Yule is my favourite.

We are not Wiccans. We are not an "earth religion". Some Heathens don't even use the term "pagan" to further differentiate themselves from the neo-pagan pseudo-wiccan-influenced fluffy-bunny mainstream. Some are very modern in their approach while others, such as those who practice Theodism, try to be as historically authentic as possible. To each his own.

Best regards,

-Mark

I find this hugely interesting Mark and I think it is very edifying having such a noble humanity about it. Thank you for elaborating. I have travelled and lived in Norway and there is something about the place which is irrefutably inspiring and yet mystical and unavailable to five simple senses. I can surely understand the kind of background that might birth such grand and yet such humble ideas that are present in your beliefset. I will certainly try to look some more into those rituals. The logic of the churchmen seems perfectly well formed. And but then if you do not hold shared expression with of other members of your beliefset, does it leave you in any way isolated do you think? Also I wonder do you find that the term Heathen is bound to certain meanings that are not in any way true? And you do not like fluffy bunny mainstream neo paganism? So there is competition for authenticity among your faith community with those practicing other faiths? I am grateful for you sharing your experiences and want to thank you again.

I don't know. What this thread shows me is that people with different religious ideas can have a sensible conversation on the subject. I think experiences shape us more than anything.

I grew up Methodist and spent hours listening to what they had to say but it never resonated. My pentacostal friend and I have a conversation one day and it changes the way I view the world!

I would say experiences count for more than talk. It is a common saying where I am from: he who tastes knows. One cannot understand a mushroom omelette by description as it relies too heavily upon analogy. I am glad for how you have come to your faith. I am happy to hear the positive experiences that it has brought to you since that discovery also. Thank you again, I am grateful as ever.

 

[Tez3]

Paganism in Iceland. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/05/iceland-perfect-pagan-country.html
Sounds very attractive, if I were in the market to change this has a lot going for it!

 

[john2054]

Hi Jenna Tez, and the rest of the valuable contributors to this thread. Well I was pleasantly surprised to find this same topic opening up on martial talk, a topic which i myself have raised and engaged with until extinction, on more then a couple contemporaries of this site, mores the pity! But Tez, I'll start off by saying that my grandad was a Jewish man, and I have fond memories of him. Also my fleeting encounters with the Jewish faith have only proved good to mankind so please believe me when i say that you have nothing to fear from me. Something I read earlier was that someone said that they believed in the Bible as a Christian, that it is God's word whatever that is supposed to mean? Maybe you believe this, but I am a Christian (I was baptised and confirmed a few months ago at my local Methodist/United Reformed church which I have joined). But I believe that the Bible is inspired by God, but written by man's own hands. And the less we say about him (you know man, the sinner) the better!

lol just kidding. But seriously I am a Christian, and haven't yet since missed a service since I was Baptised. I am comfortable with this form of Christianity, and I explained to the minister that I am a Buddhist as well. Well he said a quick prayer for me and then let the festivities commence! Wow. I was really humbly to be accepted into the church in this way, and if not all of it, i certainly owe them some good parts of my life. I guess you feel the same way Tez?

Now back to the question of God, well I think I may have already told you that I am a Buddhist. So I concur (and believe in, from when I read His books some years ago) everything about Him and Enlightenment. I don't care to go into this in particular too much here, suffice to say I got that one about ten years ago, to any way it can be got. But I only really got it when one day my step daughter held my hand. And as enlightenment is a process as much as a state, I continue to get it everyday.

I have also said that I am a practicing Christian, Don't believe me? How about the Lord's Prayer...

Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name thy kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Because thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. For ever and ever. A men.

Peace.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Paganism in Iceland. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildhunt/2008/05/iceland-perfect-pagan-country.html
Sounds very attractive, if I were in the market to change this has a lot going for it!

That's pretty amusing. In the US, Asatru is also the religion of the White Supremacists in prisons across the USA.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-inform...wse-all-issues/1998/winter/the-new-barbarians

A neo-Pagan religion drawing on images of fiercely proud, boar-hunting Norsemen and their white-skinned Aryan womenfolk is increasingly taking root among Skinheads, neo-Nazis and other white supremacists across the nation.

Asatrú leaders have opened prison ministries in at least five states recently, and their many jailed followers are heavily white supremacist. A leading proselytizer, iimprisoned terrorist David Lane, has been writing prolifically and influencing many to adopt his racist interpretations.

Bob Mathews, the late founder of The Order, of which Lane was a member, adopted a series of related beliefs. A Denver Skinhead who confessed to the November murder of a man because he was black bears an Asatrú tattoo. Some key Asatrú leaders have known neo-Nazi or anti-Semitic backgrounds.

Iceland itself, however, is doing rather nicely, despite having had some rather huge problems not long ago:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...ken-economy-that-got-out-of-jail-2349905.html

Iceland was a pioneer in recklessness during the credit boom. And now the small nation in the north Atlantic is a pioneer in political accountability during the credit bust. Geir Haarde, the Icelandic prime minister between 2006 and 2009, appeared in a special constitutional court in Reykjavik yesterday on charges of "failures of ministerial responsibility" during the 2008 financial meltdown. But there is an irony here. For the economy that Mr Haarde helped to wreck has fared surprisingly well since the bust.

Iceland experienced one of the most severe recessions in the world when the markets crashed in 2008. Economic output fell by about 12 per cent over two years. But the latest report on Iceland by the International Monetary Fund shows that growth is resuming. GDP is expected to increase by a relatively healthy 2.5 per cent in 2011. The Icelandic public finances are on a sustainable path too with government debt projected to fall to 80 per cent of GDP in 2016.

 

[Tez3]

My Rabbi says the 'Lords Prayer' is a fine piece of Jewish writing!

In answer to why we don't believe Jesus was the messiah...it's written that when the messiah comes it will be the end of the world (which I imagine will be fairly unmissable) so as the world has been going a couple of thousand years now it's safe to assume that Jesus wasn't the messiah, it doesn't say anything about him coming twice either. If you are going to believe that the Bible is the word of G-d you really need to believe all the bits not just the bits you want.

Now whether you believe the messiah has been gone and is coming back or whether you are waiting for him or no one, a good piece of advice, Jewish of course, is to live your life as if the messiah were coming tomorrow in other words live every day as if it were your last, live it to the fullest and don't put off things like telling people you love them or proud of them. Now, it's that sort of practical thought that makes me love being Jewish...that and Shabbat.

 

[Langenschwert]

That's pretty amusing. In the US, Asatru is also the religion of the White Supremacists in prisons across the USA.

The funny thing is, the nordic ancestors the white supremacists are so keen to glorify wouldn't actually understand their racist beliefs, especially in the light of modern genetics. The most important thing is for an Asatruar to revere his ancestors. Racism essentially says "your ancestors aren't as good as mine". However, every human being shares an ancestor with every other. In disrespecting the ancestors of another, you are directly and willfully disrespecting your own, since you share ancestors with everyone alive. That is the closest thing we have to sin in Heathenism. It is ignoble, deplorable, vile and not in accordance with anything we understand from the Lore. Such people are not welcome in any kindred I have contact with or knowledge of. Don't get me wrong, we have people who have such beliefs. They are ostracised and ridiculed by the greater community. But we can't make them think. Like KKK members who are devout Christians, who forget that Jesus was Jewish, so there are "Asatruar" who forget that we all have African ancestors. Screw them.

Now, there are legitimate practicioners that would be reluctant to admit a member not of Germanic blood into their knidred, but not out of racism. Their philosophy is that people should return to their ancestral faiths and strengthen them. We are well aware of what damage has been done by destroying ethnic faiths and wish that all would thrive. We have no desire to gain converts at the expense of other pre-Christian faiths... it would feel like stealing. Better than we come together at interfaith gatherings in fellowship rather than compete with each other. That being said, suppose a potential convert of African descent approached a kindred and said "I've explored my ancestral faith and it did not move me. I hear the call of the North and of the Aesir and the Vanir. My heart gives me no rest, and here I am, willing to join you". Rare is the kindred that would turn him away. It's kind of like a Gentile converting to Judaism, really. The ethics of Asatru judge a man by his actions, not his race. There are enough references in the Lore to confirm this. Those who think that there is a religious justification for racism in Asatru don't understand the Lore, and probably haven't even read it. And Thor comic books don't count.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Langenschwert]

I find this hugely interesting Mark and I think it is very edifying having such a noble humanity about it. Thank you for elaborating. I have travelled and lived in Norway and there is something about the place which is irrefutably inspiring and yet mystical and unavailable to five simple senses. I can surely understand the kind of background that might birth such grand and yet such humble ideas that are present in your beliefset. I will certainly try to look some more into those rituals. The logic of the churchmen seems perfectly well formed. And but then if you do not hold shared expression with of other members of your beliefset, does it leave you in any way isolated do you think? Also I wonder do you find that the term Heathen is bound to certain meanings that are not in any way true? And you do not like fluffy bunny mainstream neo paganism? So there is competition for authenticity among your faith community with those practicing other faiths? I am grateful for you sharing your experiences and want to thank you again.

Any pagan is no stranger to isolation. Isolation from friends and family, from coworkers and the feeling that there are none out there who share your faith. But so what? Carry on, that's what a good Heathen does. We are stoic (in the colloquial sense) if nothing else.

I have no affection for fluffy bunny paganism. But better them than a judgemental desert faith by far. At least a fluffy bunny crystal afficianado isn't going to attemt to convert me or tell me I'm going to Hell. In the initial days of the resurgence, there were very few females in Asatru, so many male practicioners ended up marrying Wiccans. Asatru certainly had a machismo element to it back them. Now it's about family and belonging. But competition for authenticity? You betcha. There's a running joke in Heathenism that the most common comment you'll get in discussing your faith is "you're doing it wrong". And screw them too. None of their business what I do. And for the most part, it's live and let live. But we do like to bicker from time to time, as family does.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[CanuckMA]

My Rabbi says the 'Lords Prayer' is a fine piece of Jewish writing!

In answer to why we don't believe Jesus was the messiah...it's written that when the messiah comes it will be the end of the world (which I imagine will be fairly unmissable) so as the world has been going a couple of thousand years now it's safe to assume that Jesus wasn't the messiah, it doesn't say anything about him coming twice either. If you are going to believe that the Bible is the word of G-d you really need to believe all the bits not just the bits you want.

Now whether you believe the messiah has been gone and is coming back or whether you are waiting for him or no one, a good piece of advice, Jewish of course, is to live your life as if the messiah were coming tomorrow in other words live every day as if it were your last, live it to the fullest and don't put off things like telling people you love them or proud of them. Now, it's that sort of practical thought that makes me love being Jewish...that and Shabbat.

Judaism is more about doing hre and now rather than waiting for Heaven. And Shabbat rocks.

 

[oftheherd1]

Jenna, I don't think anyone's ever taken advantage, at least on a personal level.

One thing I think is interesting that's coming out in the discussion is that some people value the sharing of their beliefs, and feel that it's their duty to try and help other people come to what they believe is a revealing of some great truth.

Other people value restraint and don't want to be proselytized to by their friends or acquaintances all the time.

My point is that these are both values. One is not more "right" than the other. The way I see it, if part of your belief system is to remind me that we disagree every time we get together, I don't care. I can see that it might become irritating if it's overdone, but as Instructor (who seems to be in this camp) said, "In the end alienating people and losing friends is simply counterproductive. Better to try to just be a good and loving friend. Demonstrate faith through your example and when you fall short be honest about it." That's been my experience, too. If I'm assertive but friendly, my Christian friends will back off. Bringing me to God is like trying to grow grass in the sand.

Conversely, I would never presume to tell them that they're wrong. What business is it of mine?

Good point. My church's preacher constantly reminds us that we are must try to win people with love. That is we must not be argumentative. We should let anyone know who will listen, what we believe and why.. We should not just try to "win" discussions. Sometimes I think those of us who hold a religious belief become too pushy. I cannot force anyone to my belief. Why should I try? They may appear to do so if I use sufficient force. But when I am not around to apply that force, or even when I am, their mind may be working on their true belief, while outwardly showing me what I think I want to see. I do not want to be a part of any such actions.

But I am happy to tell people what I believe and why, any time they are willing to listen. I just don't see any point in alienating people. It will almost never be productive in convincing them my way is good. My God is a God of love. It may sometimes be tough love, but it is love. That is the way I see things. Others are free to disagree.