Differences between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan?

[MrFunnieman]

The question is if Hayes was qualified enough to make those deletions without doing damage. From what I hear, he has taken out some things I would consider important.

Don, at times my depth of knowledge is more shallow than I would like to admit. What qualifies a person to adjust his training to his circumstances and what are those things he has removed that you consider important?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I think the fact that a person initiates training, regardless of their intensity, benefit intrinsically from the training.

Not if they're only doing it because there's nothing good on tv at that particular time.

Hard enough for what? If they get their a$$ off the couch and are not in front of the TV is their time really wasted?

The instructor's time may very well be, yes.

Great question. Can you extrapolate on what the real concept of self defense encompasses?

I suggest you start a new thread about that issue.

I think it is unfortunate that you would elect to keep the treasure of BBT to only a select few individuals who prove themselves worthy.

If the alternative means watering most of it down so no one learns anything of any true depth at the end of the day, well...

I think there is an inherent benefit to having a larger community exposed to the concepts and philosophies of BBT.

There we're going to have to continue to disagree.

Now imagine if Hatsumi never decided to open up his school to foreingers. You and I wouldn't have the privilage of having this discussion...

And Oguri's old dojo would still be intact...:uhyeah: But seriously, the "pioneers" went to great pains to be able to participate in training. I don't think you can compare that with the way most people find their way into all this.

Okay, maybe Hayes has "watered down" To-shin Do, standardized the curriculum, and departed from Hasumi's vision. However, now the "soccer mom" who started training at the Quest Center (because her kids train there) now has the ability use proper ukemi if she slips on ice, preventing a possible wrist or tailbone fracture.

So this is a benefit she wouldn't have had if she were in the Bujinkan instead?

She won't win a street fight or survive on the streets of Baghdad, so your right... big waste of time... because she doesn't know osoto gyaku from osoto kote gyaku

You're taking things out of context.

Children learn to be respectful, or to think creatively and out of the box.

I truly wonder if you can say that about the kids enrolled in the children's classes at Straight Blast Gym ten years from now...but that's a different discussion.

A student would be expected to do what felt natural to them at the time. White belts would be expected to handly that attack one way and blue, green or black belts would all handle the attack differently--based on their skill/ experience level. I am sure the same is true for the Buj. (I am making an assumption here).

I do agree that whether or not the self-defense aspect is particularly prevalent or not depends largely of what that particular school decides to emphasize, not necessarily on the overall functionality of the Takamatsuden arts.

 

[Don Roley]

Don, at times my depth of knowledge is more shallow than I would like to admit. What qualifies a person to adjust his training to his circumstances and what are those things he has removed that you consider important?

Lots of things. For one, the way kata are used. I found long ago that they were great ways of teaching skills. But the gain came from the process of going through them. This is at least as important as the skills they demonstrate. There is nothing like going through a kata with a senior practicioner serving as your partner.

But now Hayes teaches the kata through his home video course. I don't think you can teach or learn kata even in a seminar type setting. You may learn some of the movements, but the polishing has to be done in a small group with hands on interaction to be of benifit IMO.

But a video home study course? No way based on my experiences. Going through the bo kata of the Kukishin ryu on your own and going through it with a guy who is very skilled at them and teaching them are two entirely different worlds.

 

[windwarrior]

I dont know about my english skills but i do know that my friend akemi from japan says that ninjitsu is not a common martial art there as say karate and as such is starting to fade from common practice we should all band together to prevent this from happening and stop fighting about what one is better then the other there just differant takes on the same idea and differant teaching methods thats all im trying to say

 

[lalom]

Wow. Lots to read on these forums. All I can say, for me, is that after having had exposure to both bujinkan and To-Shin Do there are definitely some major differences. Differences in teaching style, structure are definitely different. Of course I haven't been to every dojo in the country on both sides. I even hate to use the term "both sides." I prefer to consider both on the same side.

That being said, although there are differences in the two styles, there are so many similarities that often make the differences very cloudy. Looks and feels different in many ways, but they are one in the same for me because they are so similar.

 

[Cryozombie]

I think it's funny that you are implying practioners of To-Shin Do may be technique collectors and when I trained at a Quest Center we accused Buj. people of the same!:cheers:

No, No, not what I am sayig at all. Im saying one seems to have a set curriculum with specific techniques for each belt level... and the other does not.

 

[Don Roley]

I dont know about my english skills but i do know that my friend akemi from japan says that ninjitsu is not a common martial art there as say karate and as such is starting to fade from common practice we should all band together to prevent this from happening and stop fighting about what one is better then the other there just differant takes on the same idea and differant teaching methods thats all im trying to say

Would you please, please, please stop writing like that. I teach English for a living and would beat any of my students who wrote the above with a big stick.

And could you answer the question about the mind science stuff?

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I dont know about my english skills but i do know that my friend akemi from japan says that ninjitsu is not a common martial art there as say karate and as such is starting to fade from common practice we should all band together to prevent this from happening and stop fighting about what one is better then the other there just differant takes on the same idea and differant teaching methods thats all im trying to say

Paragraphs and punctuation are your friends.
artyon:

 

[Don Roley]

Lots of things. For one, the way kata are used. I found long ago that they were great ways of teaching skills. But the gain came from the process of going through them. This is at least as important as the skills they demonstrate. There is nothing like going through a kata with a senior practicioner serving as your partner.

But now Hayes teaches the kata through his home video course. I don't think you can teach or learn kata even in a seminar type setting. You may learn some of the movements, but the polishing has to be done in a small group with hands on interaction to be of benifit IMO.

But a video home study course? No way based on my experiences. Going through the bo kata of the Kukishin ryu on your own and going through it with a guy who is very skilled at them and teaching them are two entirely different worlds.

Someone took offense at the above and dinged me with a negative rep and left the following comment.

You don't know that! C'mon!

I think that I should point out exactly how I do know what I write about.

It may surprise a lot of you that many of us in Japan do have a large collection of Hatsumi's tapes. When we started Gyokko ryu, we started watching and trying out the stuff on the Gyokko ryu Quest tape, this year we did the same with Shinden Fudo ryu, etc.

But then we go out and actually practice with the Japanese on the matter.

So when I say that there is a lot being left out when you try to do the kata on your own and not from a real sensei as your training partner, I speak from experience. I have gone to seminars in both America and Daikomyosais in Japan as well as showing up week after week to a Japanese shihan and even occasionally having them as uke. I also have people give me tapes from American teachers like Hayes and we watch them. So I know the differences and speak from experience.

In fact, at an e-budo drink up a few years ago, someone from outside the Buijinkan pointed out that as far as he was concerned I was a far more skilled, knowledgeable and experienced practicioner than Hayes. I kind of did not know what to say that night. But I have come to overcome my shock and put aside my reverance for people who started before me.

Hayes longest stay in Japan was covered by a one year visa. Other than that, his trips have fallen in the 90 day period covered by a tourist visa. I have been here for years going to class week after week. The first year in Japan is a bit of a shock with a lot to digest. I know I look back on my first year with a bit of whimsy. I did not learn as much as I did later on. And (according to folks that have heard both of us) my Japanese was much better than Hayes is even now.

So I guess that when we talk about things like this, I have tried to learn both as Hayes did and as he tries to teach. And I have gone through the multi- year process of simply going to class with the Japanese that Hayes and many others have not. And from that experience behind me, I state that there is a lot of things that Hayes seems to have never learned or is leaving out that should be left in.

And I am not the only one. There is a guy who has lived here for 20 years who is going to be teaching a seminar overseas for the first time in a few months. 20 years without teaching, just learning. He has not had to worry about his image and is free to accept corrections. He has not has to worry about anything like building up a system or anything other than getting good. And after 20 years of that he is just about ready to start teaching others.

Sorry if I sound a little down on Hayes. But I honestly can't think that he really knows enough to make the changes he did and not throw the baby out with the bath water when I hear about people like the 20 year student.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Not that I like to teach very much or think Hayes is the best practitioner ever, but let's not forget that there are things you can only learn by teaching yourself.

 

[windwarrior]

Would you please, please, please stop writing like that. I teach English for a living and would beat any of my students who wrote the above with a big stick.

And could you answer the question about the mind science stuff?

Ok first off feel sorry for your students my english is what it is and thats not what were debating here second to answer your question i was under the impression that SKH had integrated into his toshindo program buddist meditation principles as self impowerment mindsets like confidence building and community building stuff i dont know if thats the same as the bujinkan way but thats what i whas told by my instructor as being a differance as well as a more modern application of the kamae changing some of the footwork and hand positioning and taking out ones that werent as practical in todays society im just going on what i have been told and no one in my school has ever said anything negative about a bujinkan school while ive been in earshot and we all hold massaki hatsumi in the highest respect

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Ok first off feel sorry for your students my english is what it is and thats not what were debating here

Take a look at the keyboard in front of you. Then, look specifically at the button two steps right of the letter "M". When you press it, this . happens. I suggest you learn to take advantage of this function to begin with.

application of the kamae changing some of the footwork and hand positioning and taking out ones that werent as practical in todays society

There is always the risk in traditional martial arts that things one does not understand are deemed impractical.

 

[Don Roley]

i was under the impression that SKH had integrated into his toshindo program buddist meditation principles as self impowerment mindsets like confidence building and community building stuff i dont know if thats the same as the bujinkan way but thats what i whas told by my instructor as being a differance as well as a more modern application of the kamae changing some of the footwork and hand positioning and taking out ones that werent as practical in todays society

Ugh! I teach kids who have only been learning English for a few months that can understand how to use periods and such. Why are you blaming others for complaining about not being able to easily read what you write?

As for the idea that the buddist meditation principles are the same in the Bujinkan and Toshindo- no. Your instructor is not telling you the truth. He probably has never even been to Japan and is just passing along what he was told in Toshindo. But the exercises you do for the mind in Toshindo are not the same as in the Bujinkan. In fact, I would challenge you to show me a mind developing exercise in the Bujinkan outside of normal taijutsu pracice.

As for the idea of taking out things that are not practical in today's society, not only am I going to repeat what I said about the baby and the bath water, I am going to point out that people still have the same limbs, the same bodies as they did hundreds of years ago. People that create new arts always seem to say that older stuff is not relevant to the modern age- and yet they do not seem to be able to really give concrete examples.

Lets face it- I have seen Hayes do sword. If you are talking about dropping things that are not relevant to the modern age, how do you explain that?

 

[MrFunnieman]

So when I say that there is a lot being left out when you try to do the kata on your own and not from a real sensei as your training partner, I speak from experience. I have gone to seminars in both America and Daikomyosais in Japan as well as showing up week after week to a Japanese shihan and even occasionally having them as uke. I also have people give me tapes from American teachers like Hayes and we watch them. So I know the differences and speak from experience.

Don, I understand that in the last couple of years Hayes has added A home study program. I did not consider that his primary vehicle of instruction. I most certainly AGREE with the fact that things can be left out in a video or in a seminar situation.

I was hoping that you would highlight holes in the curriculum or techinique itself. Nimravus had mentioned no ukemi, which was misinformation, but I was hoping for info. along those lines.

But I have come to overcome my shock and put aside my reverance for people who started before me.

I feel you on this. After training and working with Hayes, he lost some of his sparkle.

I state that there is a lot of things that Hayes seems to have never learned or is leaving out that should be left in.

Okay, what?

Sorry if I sound a little down on Hayes. But I honestly can't think that he really knows enough to make the changes he did and not throw the baby out with the bath water when I hear about people like the 20 year student.

As for the changing and updating that Windwarrior is talking about...
Hayes has included a code of mindful action and a student creed that are basic Buddhist precepts, but they are not taught as Buddhist, so as not to offend other religions.

Because of litigation and what is "self-defense" in the US, some of the kamae use open hands with the palms facing the aggressor. This is done to give the appear one does not want to fight. The language substituted for kiai are also in reflective of try to stop the fight peacably. If a witness saw you with your hands open and trying to tell a person "stop, I don't want to fight". It would hold up better in court that you were just trying to protect yourself and weren't looking to intentionally break the persons wrist, arm, etc.

I am glad that Hayes at least looked at and responded to the legal aspects of defending oneself in the US. He may or may not be doing it the best, but I would rather have some of the knowledge going into the fight/ hostile situation rather than spend time in prison doing something I didn't realize was illegal or implied consent with my body language.

Nimravus, I would still argue that the instructor hasn't wasted their time if the soccer mom was able to use ukemi. As a teacher (high school social studies) I always feel satisfied when a student makes any improvement-- regardless of their skill or commitment level.

 

[MrFunnieman]

So this is a benefit she wouldn't have had if she were in the Bujinkan instead?

She could have the same benefit, sure. As it get's mentioned on the boards- not all school are created equally- if classes are designed to give the indepth knowledge that you and I seek I doubt it would seduce a "soccer mom" to train.

That's not to say a school can't have two courses of study. One that is self-defense oriented broken down into steps and some what easy for the average person to disgest . And one that is geared to a more traditional program for students who want more depth to their studies (Shadows of Iga).

We tend to get caught up in the philosophy of the subject, but let me reiterate that economics plays a role too. I don't know who on the board owns or plans to own a school, but to make a living teaching full-time one has to create a product for a wide demographic of people.

I am confident that a senior student of To-shin Do could fit into a BBT class with little effort. Most of the senior intructors of To-shin Do studied BBT YEARS before there ever was To-shin Do.

I do agree that whether or not the self-defense aspect is particularly prevalent or not depends largely of what that particular school decides to emphasize, not necessarily on the overall functionality of the Takamatsuden arts.

I want to savor this... you said we agree! :supcool:

No, No, not what I am sayig at all. Im saying one seems to have a set curriculum with specific techniques for each belt level... and the other does not.

My misunderstanding, but I thought it was more funny the way I interpreted your comment.

It's true, you have to master certain skills before you can advance to the next belt. Is this not so for the Bujinkan? Certainly there are mile stones for advancing? An aptitude for the Kihon Happo? Certain kata or ryu-ha? I don't really know. I have had brief experiences with three BBT schools. One was in the basement of a guys house. They trained pretty hard and there were only a handful of people. One was in a warehouse originally owned by Shawn Havens, former student of Mr. Hayes (pre- TSD) and the third was a To-shin Do instructor in Dayton and left to start his own school in the Bujinkan. He was a sandan in Hayes's school and was licensed in Bujinkan with relative ease (as far as I know). I am not sure who sponsered him for his BBT licensure.

My overall impression is that things are more similar that folks are willing to admit. There are some obvious differences and others are more discrete, but overall BBT people handle TSD well and vice versa.

You say potato, I say potato. (You all know what I mean)

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

As a teacher (high school social studies) I always feel satisfied when a student makes any improvement-- regardless of their skill or commitment level.

I've heard similar comments before, and there is a significant difference between high school and budo practice - one of them is compulsory. The levels of commitment can't really be compared.

She could have the same benefit, sure. As it get's mentioned on the boards- not all school are created equally- if classes are designed to give the indepth knowledge that you and I seek I doubt it would seduce a "soccer mom" to train.

So what? If I had encountered Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu for the first time nowadays I probably never would have started training. If I had had the slightest idea as to what I would be able to expect from enrolling, the likelihood would have decreased even more. Looking back on it now however, of course I feel it was worth it. Know I meen, know I meen?

That's not to say a school can't have two courses of study. One that is self-defense oriented broken down into steps and some what easy for the average person to disgest . And one that is geared to a more traditional program for students who want more depth to their studies (Shadows of Iga).

Just remembered a nice analogy about traditional martial arts..."we're not an express elevator to the 5th floor, we're more of a freight elevator to the 20th".

We tend to get caught up in the philosophy of the subject, but let me reiterate that economics plays a role too. I don't know who on the board owns or plans to own a school, but to make a living teaching full-time one has to create a product for a wide demographic of people.

Personally, I find the idea of people teaching traditional martial arts for a living ridiculous, but that's another discussion. Have at thee, bad rep points! %-}

I am confident that a senior student of To-shin Do could fit into a BBT class with little effort. Most of the senior intructors of To-shin Do studied BBT YEARS before there ever was To-shin Do.

Never met any, so I couldn't tell.

I want to savor this... you said we agree! :supcool:

There's a first time for everything.

 

[MrFunnieman]

Personally, I find the idea of people teaching traditional martial arts for a living ridiculous, but that's another discussion. Have at thee, bad rep points! %-}

This is off topic, but I am not sure what you mean by your last line. I have never given ANYONE rep. points-- positive or negative. To be truthful-- I don't know how-- and I didn't realize I had any until I started investigating my Control Panel, which I rarely check. Honestly, I interpreted the line as you zinging me with points.

I try and take these discussions seriously, but not to heart.

Still thankful we agree on one thing... but not everything ,
MrFunnieman

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Actually, I said that because I expected to receive at least some negative feedback from people who may frequent this site and do teach martial arts for a living. Guess it was smart of me to write "ridiculous" instead of "reproachable".

 

[bydand]

Most of the senior intructors of To-shin Do studied BBT YEARS before there ever was To-shin Do.

True for all the senior instructors I know. Also a couple of the Instructors I know have left To-Shin-Do and returned to the BBT without any problem. I think if you were totally To-Shin-Do then went BBT, there would be a period of adjustment to go through because although the techniques are 99% the same, the method and order of teaching them are different. BBT to To-Shin-Do would probably be a bit easier, but there would still be an adjustment period. Just like going from one school to another. NO 2 Quest centers I have ever been to have the EXACT same training methods and order. They seem to have the same basic training lay-out, but the individual instructors also introduce their own "Extras". When the BBT school I started in switched over to To-Shin-Do there was no change in what, or how we were taught (right at the beginning, so they were still working out the final "course materials".)

 

[windwarrior]

There is no point in me posting further.
all you want to do is insult me and i have better things to do with my time.
like training for one .