Differences between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

TO-SHIN DO doesn't have Ukemi?

Strange there on the DVDs and TO-SHIN DO curriculum my instructor has.

Read my post again.

 

[ginshun]

But, following on from my last post.

I Guess thats what happens when people talk about TO-SHIN Do without actually experiencing it. Lots of misunderstanding, by people who think they know everything.

I get the impression that happens a lot.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Gina, you still haven't answered my question. Who told you that the Bujinkan values historical preservation over contemporary effectiveness?

 

[ginshun]

please don't get the impression that I was singling anyone out.

I think misinformation about what other arts are and speaking ill about them without any first hand experience of what they actually encompass happens a lot across all martial arts, not just back and forth between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan.

 

[Flatlander]

It seems to me that in order to effectively discern the differences between the To Shin Do training and Bujinkan training, it would be helpful for people who have trained in these respective arts to share their experiences, to outline what their trianing is comprised of, etc. In that way, those who have trained in the other may be able to point out the differences that they have experienced.

Unfortunately, nobody is as willing to share as they are to assume. Damn shame, if you ask me. As one who has trained in NEITHER, the conclusions that I'm able to draw from this thread regarding either art aren't terribly flattering.

 

[Michael Stinson]

The futility of these types of posts is that first and foremost very few people are equipped at all to answer them. Without fail many come in with things they have heard...or with very very limited experience (I trained with a guy that did 'X' once at a seminar). Even worse...I read on 'Blah' forum that so and so does not do 'x'.

Those of us that actually do have a bit of experience on both sides of the fence can only share our personal experiences which paint a partial and incomplete picture. It is very easy to mistake our personal maps for the territories and argue those maps, but it really doesn't do anyone any good. It is very sad when folks argue not only their maps, but maps that have been given to them by someone else, that may have recieved those maps from yet another person who half heard the details and wasn't a very good mapper to begin with....

With the various experiences I have had I could look at many of the things said in this thread and say it was true based on 'X', but false based on 'Y'. The fact is that in both houses there is a lot of variety, experiences, outlooks, etc. Even in To-Shin Do where there is generally more of a defined structure...there are many differences from dojo to dojo. This can definitely be said about the Bujinkan to a much larger degree....

So...to accurately answer this question involves a lot of:

If you train with 'X' dojo you will see this, this and that...however you will not see this at 'Z' dojo...now in the other organization you will see....etc. So...before answering this question authoritatively...you really need to have trained with a large percentage of dojos/instructors for an extended period under both organizational titles. At the very least make sure you have trained with a number of the 'seniors' to ensure you at least see what is coming down from the top.

Of course you could always just enjoy your training and ignore the things which really don't affect you in any way. More and more I find enough to work on and question in my own life and training without looking into my neighbors yard.

 

[Flatlander]

Sorry, gotta disagree. The futility is that nobody shares, they only comment on what others have said. It becomes a discussion without substance, because people would rather slam the intent than contribute.

 

[Michael Stinson]

Sorry, gotta disagree. The futility is that nobody shares, they only comment on what others have said. It becomes a discussion without substance, because people would rather slam the intent than contribute.

The point is that very few people can share because they don't have the real information (substance?) to share. Even those of us that might be able to share...we can only give our personal experiences which will likely only paint a picture that someone else will come along and argue that it is completely wrong.

Often times when one does innocently share, that sharing will either be taken in the wrong way, or interpretted in a manner which creates ill will, anger, etc. Most comparisons end up making one or the other topics of comparison appear to be lacking or be otherwise inferior. People generally either accidentally or deliberately slant their statements in these types of discussions in a manner that justifies their direction...and more often than not puts down the other direction in some fashion.

 

[DWeidman]

Sorry, gotta disagree. The futility is that nobody shares, they only comment on what others have said. It becomes a discussion without substance, because people would rather slam the intent than contribute.

Ah - Flatlander:

As the spokesman for ALL of the BUJINKAN - the following workout is what EVERY BUJINKAN dojo in the world does:

Warm-up
Rolling
Eat a cheese sandwhich.
Punch in the air for at least 4 hours straight.
Stand in the corner and scream at the top of our lungs to work on the foundation for KIAI.
More rolling.
Lemonade break
Warm Down.

There. That should answer any questions you have about the Bujinkan.

...or not

You see - there is sooooo much freedom in the Bujinkan that Bujinkan dojos literally blocks apart you will see MASSIVE differences. This is both to our advantage and our detriment.

Sorry - this isn't an equation system: PUNCH X + BLOCK Y = TECHNIQUE #12. It it was - then sharing our sylabus would be enough to make a good comparison. Anyone want to share the Bujinkan sylabus? Anyone?

Sorry it isn't so simple. And to be honest - if you don't think of our art as "flattering" (or its representation on an INTERNET WEB BOARD) - I, for one, am not going to lose any sleep.

Michael is right - it is useless unless Hatsumi and Hayes come on here to MT and hash it out (I am not holding my breath...)

-Daniel

 

[Flatlander]

Geez you guys, it's like pulling teeth.

Fortunately, I was able to pull one useful nugget out of that pile of sarcastic non-helpfulness:

You see - there is sooooo much freedom in the Bujinkan that Bujinkan dojos literally blocks apart you will see MASSIVE differences. This is both to our advantage and our detriment.

Why is this? How is it to your art's advantage? How is it to your art's detriment?

Further, how does this relate to To Shin Do? Is there a To Shin Do practitioner that can answer this question: is there a cohesive and uniform curriculum? This would comprise a difference.

Sorry it isn't so simple. And to be honest - if you don't think of our art as "flattering" (or its representation on an INTERNET WEB BOARD) - I, for one, am not going to lose any sleep.

Listen up, I'm trying to facilitate discussion here. What exactly do you suppose this board is for? I haven't seen a friendly bit of sharing or helpful discussion in this sub-forum since it opened. Why is that?

Ask yourself, are you contributing positively? If not, then why bother?

 

[Cryozombie]

Kids, Play nice.

My Opinion? The Buj does not put emphasis on a set curriculum because the techniques dont matter. The Kihon Happo and the Sanshin teach you how to move, and how the body works... other techniques are tools for the toolbox, so to speak, but the idea of Buj training is to be, uh, responsive, not locked into a technique. There is no "If attacker throws Straight punch followed by a jab and then a hook, execute <insert technique here>" so it does not benefit the art to have a curriculum that says "To earn a Black Belt Learn Kata A=F, recite the names of the Techniques A=Q and Break this Brick" like in my old Hapkido school. Some of the only things you will be likely to see universally in a Bujinkan School is the Kihon Happo and Sanshin...

When I went to the Toshindo school out here prior to starting my 'kan training, they gave me a curriculum that outlined what I would need to know for the various ranks, with a small description of the techniques. I cant say that that is universal in Toshindo, but it was how it was done at the school I checked out.

 

[rutherford]

Further, how does this relate to To Shin Do? Is there a To Shin Do practitioner that can answer this question: is there a cohesive and uniform curriculum? This would comprise a difference.

Actually, it wouldn't. There's a set curriculum for belt rankings through my instructor. We have essays to write, books to read, and minimum times in each rank. Everything you'd might expect, right down to the printed syllabus.

That said, there are lots of folks who pay no attention to the curriculum. The most senior member of my training group hasn't tested for rank in 8 years. To be honest, I don't even know if he's a Bujinkan member, and I don't care. The fact is that his Taijutsu is GOOD and he can explain to you the whys, the hows, and the roots/principles of each movement. He inspires us, shows respect for our art, and our instructor. He has the respect of our instructor, what more should I ask for?

I've come to understand that in many ways, the Bujinkan does not fit within Western concepts.

Listen up, I'm trying to facilitate discussion here. What exactly do you suppose this board is for? I haven't seen a friendly bit of sharing or helpful discussion in this sub-forum since it opened. Why is that?

Ask yourself, are you contributing positively? If not, then why bother?

Flatlander, you have good intentions. I believe they may be mistaken, and that some of the same questions may apply.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I've come to understand that in many ways, the Bujinkan does not fit within Western concepts.

Ba-da-bip, ba-da-bing-bang-boom.:ultracool

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

DWeidman: "... - the following workout is what EVERY BUJINKAN dojo in the world does:

Warm-up
Rolling
Eat a cheese sandwhich.
Punch in the air for at least 4 hours straight.
Stand in the corner and scream at the top of our lungs to work on the foundation for KIAI.
More rolling.
Lemonade break
Warm Down."

That's funny, 'cause at my dojo, we eat peanut butter sandwiches, and the lemonade break comes before the "more rolling" phase.

But seriously, there's one difference we can agree exists: Kasumi-An Toshindo uses more set curriculae than Bujinkan Budotaijutsu does.

rutherford: "I've come to understand that in many ways, the Bujinkan does not fit within Western concepts."

So, I guess another difference we can agree on is that the Bujinkan is Japanese (or Japanese-flavored international), while Toshindo is American (or American-flavored western hemisphere).

 

[Michael Stinson]

In To-Shin Do there is a standard curriculm out there. There are also sheets that are given out which contain a skeletal outline. Having said that....

Much like the Bujinkan there is a great deal of variety from school to school. I know that both Tampa and California have their own 'curriculum sheets' that are different from what we use here in Phoenix (and actually as I type this I remembered that I have modified the ones we use to add a few things here and there that is different from others). I also know that they both have their own flavor of the curriculum that varies quite a bit from what I do, as well as from each other. Yes there are many similarities...some exact...but also some major differences. This is very true with some of the other Quest Centers as well. In Phoenix we follow pretty closely with what is done in Dayton...but we have our own flavor as well. The curriculum is a starting point, but there is plenty of room for additions, modifications, etc.

Even in discussing the physical sheets given out...they just serve as a framework or starting point...much is taught that is not on the sheet.

As always...the answer is maybe and depends....

 

[windwarrior]

Ok im curiouse what the reasons for everyons discontentment with each other on this subject is i personally take toshindo at a quest center i am going to actually meet mister hayes in a couple of weeks and am verry excited about that however if i had the oportunity to hop on a plane go to japan and train with hatsumi sense i rocket forward into that headlong without a moments hesitation as far as i know mr hayes and hatsumi are still friends and what not so whats the big deal there just two differant ways of looking at the same thing a differant angle ive noticed that the mind science portions of both arts are tought slightly differantly but whenever ive seen mister hayes teach a class or perform arts in a dvd he always gives huge credit to hatsumi or honors him in some way mentioning that this is were i got my start in this way of thinking and then i expanded my own toughts on top of that im not sure y we all cant just get along out there i mean its a rare art to begin with and its gonna get more so if we dont start banding together and promoting our art from a positive standpoint my favorite code of mindfull action is i avoid anything that will hamper my physical and mental well being well it makes me nuts to not see people geting along i wish you all the best with your training eather bujinkan or toshindo may you truly find what you looking for out of it agin long story short
peace love no flaming promote harmony whatever you want to call it im sure im gonna get hammered for this post lol but i dont care im gonna be off in a field somwere with a kusari practicing on grass and being happy knowing im practicing the art thats rite for me it may not be rite for anyone else but its a perfect fit on myself

 

[Don Roley]

ive noticed that the mind science portions of both arts are tought slightly differantly

First of all, please write in a manner that will not cause your old, dead English teachers to spin in their graves.

As for mind science stuff, exactly what are you talking about as done by Hatsumi? Some of the stuff that has been attributed to Hatsumi actually comes from Hayes and his research into things from outside the Bujinkan.

 

[Cryozombie]

That is the single longest run on sentance I have ever seen, and it hurt my head to read it.

 

[MrFunnieman]

I don't think anyone benefits from having pupils around that aren't seriously interested in becoming as proficient as they possibly can.

I think the fact that a person initiates training, regardless of their intensity, benefit intrinsically from the training.

That is a waste of the instructor's and everyone else's time and abilities. Those who say that they only train for the fun of it - do they really train hard enough?

Hard enough for what? If they get their a$$ off the couch and are not in front of the TV is their time really wasted? I would argue that a sedintary life style is a waste of time and abilities. That person may not be looking to be an uber ninja or Navy SEAL, but they may learn a couple of skills that will help them out of a confrontation and at the very minimum raise their pulse rate for the duration of the class.

Those who train purely for self defense - do they really grasp what the concept of self defense encompasses?

Great question. Can you extrapolate on what the real concept of self defense encompasses?

My point is this...why would you cut down on and/or remove several training components... other than to make the training available to a larger amount of people who otherwise wouldn't have the endurance, patience and constitution to keep going? And why would you want to enroll such individuals in the first place?

I think it is unfortunate that you would elect to keep the treasure of BBT to only a select few individuals who prove themselves worthy. I think there is an inherent benefit to having a larger community exposed to the concepts and philosophies of BBT. Everyone on this forum rants about how much they love the training and how effective it is, at how amazing BBT's concepts are as applicable today as they were a millenium ago. SWEET!

Now imagine if Hatsumi never decided to open up his school to foreingers. You and I wouldn't have the privilage of having this discussion...

Okay, maybe Hayes has "watered down" To-shin Do, standardized the curriculum, and departed from Hasumi's vision. However, now the "soccer mom" who started training at the Quest Center (because her kids train there) now has the ability use proper ukemi if she slips on ice, preventing a possible wrist or tailbone fracture. She won't win a street fight or survive on the streets of Baghdad, so your right... big waste of time... because she doesn't know osoto gyaku from osoto kote gyaku

Cynics will argue that a bigger audience leads to bigger profits, sure. I won't deny that, but it increases exposure to something that we all would agree is a very positive experience. We all care about martial arts, particularly the one we study, or we would not be here on MT debating or sharing our thoughts. If training helps one person an any aspect I believe the community as a whole is that much better off. Children learn to be respectful, or to think creatively and out of the box. People are encouraged to be aware of their surroundings, they gain more flexibility and are less injury prone, their self-esteem may improve, need I go on?

My Opinion? The Buj does not put emphasis on a set curriculum because the techniques dont matter. The Kihon Happo and the Sanshin teach you how to move, and how the body works... other techniques are tools for the toolbox, so to speak, but the idea of Buj training is to be, uh, responsive, not locked into a technique.[/qoute]

Perhaps it would be easier to consider the curriculum given to the kyu ranks as the To-Shin Do kihon happo. Like most languages this doesn't translate literally, but curriculum helps students react in a natural or efficient way in response to attacks from an aggressor and is based on their skill/ experience level. If you went to a school teaching the To-Shin Do curriculum and were only there one day or a couple of months I am sure you were looking at something pertaining to white and yellow belts. There is no prescribed way to respond to a "straight punch followed by a jab and then a hook". A student would be expected to do what felt natural to them at the time. White belts would be expected to handly that attack one way and blue, green or black belts would all handle the attack differently--based on their skill/ experience level. I am sure the same is true for the Buj. (I am making an assumption here).

There is no "If attacker throws Straight punch followed by a jab and then a hook, execute <insert technique here>" so it does not benefit the art to have a curriculum that says "To earn a Black Belt Learn Kata A=F, recite the names of the Techniques A=Q and Break this Brick" like in my old Hapkido school. Some of the only things you will be likely to see universally in a Bujinkan School is the Kihon Happo and Sanshin...

I think it's funny that you are implying practioners of To-Shin Do may be technique collectors and when I trained at a Quest Center we accused Buj. people of the same!:cheers:

Well, I will cut this long post short...

 

[Don Roley]

I think it is unfortunate that you would elect to keep the treasure of BBT to only a select few individuals who prove themselves worthy. I think there is an inherent benefit to having a larger community exposed to the concepts and philosophies of BBT. Everyone on this forum rants about how much they love the training and how effective it is, at how amazing BBT's concepts are as applicable today as they were a millenium ago. SWEET!

Now imagine if Hatsumi never decided to open up his school to foreingers. You and I wouldn't have the privilage of having this discussion...

Okay, maybe Hayes has "watered down" To-shin Do, standardized the curriculum, and departed from Hasumi's vision. However, now the "soccer mom" who started training at the Quest Center (because her kids train there) now has the ability use proper ukemi if she slips on ice, preventing a possible wrist or tailbone fracture. She won't win a street fight or survive on the streets of Baghdad, so your right... big waste of time... because she doesn't know osoto gyaku from osoto kote gyaku

I think the problem I have with the above idea is that a lot of times when you try to slim down the cirriculum, you end up throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

There are things in the system that might not make sense to us. But later on turn out to be very important. These insights come only after a long time and understanding of the subject matter. After several years in Japan I have found that certain things that I did not understand the importance of have become clearer.

The question is if Hayes was qualified enough to make those deletions without doing damage. From what I hear, he has taken out some things I would consider important.