Differences between HKD and Kuk Sool

[NightShadow]

I was reading up on the history or background of GM Suh and Kuk Sool Won. It has been some time since I last read it. In what I read it stated that GM Suh, grand father had studied and taught Koong Joong Mu Sool (Royal Court Martial Arts). But there was no mention as to when the Royal Court Guard was disbanded. Does anyone have a link to that information?

I do believe that GM Suh's grandfather could have possibly been the GM of GM Lim. I think this is a definate possibility since GM Suh's grandfather was an instructor in the Royal Courts Martial Arts. This could also help explain why a lot of the core techniques are identical between the Hap Ki Do I take and Kuk Sool Won.

According to the history of KSW, GM Suh after his grandfathers passing traveled and studied at various other places. During this time is where I think GM Suh added things to his style that separated it from the core system his grandfather taught (such as the addition of traditional forms which the style I am in lacks).

I need to dig up what history I have on the style I am an and look at it closer still. GM Lim only gives out information on the basis that he decides it is something you need to know so it can be difficult to get everything pieced together with him.

I don't mean to make GM Suh out to be a thief either... especially as we all know that various styles or martial arts have similar stories in them as glad2bhere has said. Without actually having been there it does make it hard to validate these kinds of things.

Thanks!

NightShadow

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Nightshadow.
I was sure that you did not mean to actually say GM Suh was a thief based on the information you provided...it just came across that way. With one person expressing this might have been a possibility, another will run with the information and tell it as truth. Thanks for clearing up the actual intent of your post.

Bruce:
I agree. There is sooo much oral history out there that one might become sceptical; however, that venue used to be a major way of preserving some of the things that took place. Problem is, it changes over time.

BTW, I heard from Doug Custer, and he said he mailed the weapons you left at my dojang after the seminar. I hope you will get them soon.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Nightshadow:

".....I was reading up on the history or background of GM Suh and Kuk Sool Won. It has been some time since I last read it. In what I read it stated that GM Suh, grand father had studied and taught Koong Joong Mu Sool (Royal Court Martial Arts). But there was no mention as to when the Royal Court Guard was disbanded. Does anyone have a link to that information?...."

Please accept what I am about to say in the most supportive way, but I am concerned that you are playing a bit loose with Korean history. I wish things were a little more cut&dried but Korea at the turn of the 19th century was a pretty chaotic place with no less than 7 major factions vying for influence. The reason I raise this point is that depending on whose eyes you are viewing through you can get a few different answers to your questions. Allow me to give you three examples.

In May, 1881 Korea’s King Kojong hired a Japanese lieutenant named Horimoto Reizo to train the "Pyolgigun", or Special Skills Force, to march and shoot in the European fashion. The Korean royal bodyguard was not amused by this threat to its existence, and in 1882 it had Horimoto killed and his Special Skills Force disbanded. One might easily take this as the point at which the Korean military lost their sway over the palace since the security of the King from this point forward was held by a succession of entities including Chinese advisors, Japanese advisors and even the Korean "Guild of Peddlers".

In 1907, the Japanese usurped control of urban security for the precincts of Seoul when the Kabo Reforms (1894) did not produce the expected impetus for change including a well-ordered National police force and standing army. Individuals who had been responsible for security in and around the palace specifically and Seoul in general were dismissed. Three years later, in 1910, the Korean king abdicated in favor of his son and the Korean prime minister ceded administrative control of the country to a Japanese secretary-general. Some might consider this date the point you are speaking of. IMVVHO I consider the 1907 date the most accurate in that the dismissal I mentioned was the earliest documented policy enacted as opposed to a action resulting from some other event. FWIW.

BTW: Re: Mr. Custer. Was kind enough to send me an e-mail advising me that he had sent things along and expressing an interest in pursuing some sword work. As always I am at his disposal for the asking. Thanks.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[NightShadow]

Bruce....

Thanks for your info. I spent quite a bit of time reading over some Korean history last week and history on various martial styles from Korea. You are rigth that the Korean Royal Court system was disbanded in the 1907 - 1910 time frame because of the occupation from Japan. Myong Duk Suh is the only person I have found reference to that continued to teach the Royal Court martial arts though past that time. Depending on the reference some state he only taught it to family members where as other accounts kind of leave it open by saying he originally only taught it to family members. One reference on In Hyuk Suh stated he was born in 1939 (which puts him right around the same age as my GM Lim). It has also been stated that GM Suh started his training at the age of 5. This would have been 1944. When GM Suh's grandfather passed in 1952 he would have only been training for 8 years and be 13 years of age.

The way I figure things is that my style of Hapi Ki Do came from the Royal Guard martial arts. However right now the only person I can place my GM as gaining training from would have been GM Suh's grandfather. But I have no way of validating that at this point (and I am not about ready to walk up to my GM or GM Suh and ask!). One of the items I dug up from my papers on my style of Hap Ki Do makes extensive remarks of the roots of it going back to Kuk Sool Won and the Royal Court martial arts. But it also makes reference to it as Kuk Sool - Hap Ki Do as well. From what I could find though Kuk Sool - Hap Ki Do broke off from Kuk Sool Won because of differences some individuals had between what GM Suh wanted to have instructors teach and what others thought should be taught in the style. But from what I read Kuk Sool - Hap Ki Do is not being taught anywhere outside of Korea.

Another item that links my style back to the Kuk Sool styles is the original symbol used for it before GM Lim broke away from all Korean associations. It is a derivitive of the Kuk Sool symbol (hand grasping a staff with 2 swords at the side of the hand in a arch type pattern to create almost a circle around the fist, this all encompassed by a pentagon shaped symbol).

So this leads me to the question of where did th symbol come from that is used in Kuk Sool Won and Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do?

Thanks....

NightShadow

 

[kwanjang]

FWIW
Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do is still taught in my school in Canada. According to my late GM, the crest of Kuk Sool has significant meaning. The outside (what you call pentagon) is actually a stylized Rose of Sharon (Korea's national flower), the fist grabbing the dan bong represents the Sado and Bul Kyo Mu Sool and the swords represent the Koong Joong Mu Sool.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Nightshadow:

".....One of the items I dug up from my papers on my style of Hap Ki Do makes extensive remarks of the roots of it going back to Kuk Sool Won and the Royal Court martial arts. But it also makes reference to it as Kuk Sool - Hap Ki Do as well. From what I could find though Kuk Sool - Hap Ki Do broke off from Kuk Sool Won because of differences some individuals had between what GM Suh wanted to have instructors teach and what others thought should be taught in the style. But from what I read Kuk Sool - Hap Ki Do is not being taught anywhere outside of Korea....."

Yes its a little hard to follow sometimes. For instance, what we cal "Hwa Rang Do" today was first taught as "Hwa Rang Hapkido" before Joo Bang Lee changed the name and gave it a separate history. There is still a peer of Lees' in the SF area who continues to call his material "Hwa Rang Hapkido" and was likewise a student of Kim Moo Woong, but gives a different reason for using "Hwa Rang" in his title. I would guess he probably has some concerns about running afoul of Lee over trademark infringement. Likewise, Kuk Sool Won was formerly known as Kuk Sool Hapkido, and there are still some folks around who continue to use "kuk sool" in their titles such as "kuk sool do".

As far as influences that could be anyboys' guess, and I doubt that the current leadership in the Hapkido arts will be anymore candid than they already have been. By this time in their lives there would be little benefit to coming out and publically stating that all they were trying to do was organize something like the TKD and TSD people had done. I must say that it is always easy to make up stories when there are no documents to validate what is being said. When soneone comes up with an offical training manual for palace guards dated between 1800 and 1850 then I will listen to a case for some obscure "Royal Court" art. (I'm still waiting for someone to turn-up census records for the existence of the 56 previous GM in the lineage of Hwa Rang GM that GM Lee has talked about in his interviews.) Given the Yangbans' aversion to work over study and reflection, and the Confucian view of eschewing violent action I don't think any such manual will ever turn up, but I could get fooled. There may be something like a latter day MYTBTJ lurking around somewhere undiscovered. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[NightShadow]

Rudy:
Thanks for the symbolistic description of the Kuk Sool logo. I know I have somewhere a description of it other then the Rose of Sharon part. It has been awhile since I looked at the meaning of it so this was a good refresher for me. However I am still curious as to where it came from. Was GM Suh the first to use it with Kuk Sool Won or does the logo have other roots as well. Maybe even having parts of it come from the various systems it represents as being unified? Was it something he may have seen from his grandfather? I think this would be interesting to know. I can understand other kuk sool styles using that symbol if they were break offs from GM Suh's kuk sool won, but are there other styles that have used that logo or similar that have no ties to GM Suh's KSW.

I think some of the confusion surrounding the korean arts of kuk sool, Hap Ki Do and Hwa Rang, etc are part of the appeal to it. It does kind of draw one into learning the history of things in order to try and sort things out for them self or to better understand where various aspects of their art came from.

I would be curious to know or see the books the GM Suh had received from his grandfather regarding the royal court martial art system, techniques or what not that might be in them. It would be interesting to find out how far back they go age wise. Of course getting the opportunity to study books like that I am sure would be a difficult task to accomplish.

- NightShadow

 

[kwanjang]

Shadow:
I did see the books GM Suh talks about; however, I was unable to read them (lack of Korean language skills) so they could have been cook books as far as that goes

I am not sure about other schools using this crest. I began training in KSHKD in the sixties, and it was the logo that we used then. FWIW, some people (like my old GM Pak) changed the name of their art to keep it from being a TM issue with Kuk Sool.

 

[NightShadow]

That is pretty neat that you had a chance to see them. I can certainly understand the lack of Korean langauge skills. I still think it would be interesting to be able to review them or have them reviewed to understand their history and text.

Since you have been involved in these styles since the 60's I really have appreciated your input and insight to it. It has helped me with some of my studies on this subject.

- NightShadow

 

[kwanjang]

That is pretty neat that you had a chance to see them. I can certainly understand the lack of Korean langauge skills. I still think it would be interesting to be able to review them or have them reviewed to understand their history and text.

Since you have been involved in these styles since the 60's I really have appreciated your input and insight to it. It has helped me with some of my studies on this subject.

- NightShadow

You are most welcome. I think this is a great place for ALL of us to learn, and I take full advantage of it

 

[hapkidonet]

I was walking past a Kuk Sool school in Alameda California once. It was an open garage style school, and class was in session, so I stopped to watch. The instructor ambled over and asked me if I was interested. I told him that I study Hapkido and was just observing. To my amazement (knowing something about various Korean arts and how they regard each other) he said, "Ah. Well, this is Hapkido too."