Differences between HKD and Kuk Sool

[iron_ox]

Hello All,

I was just wondering, we hear lots of talk about the relationship between Choi and Takeda, with talk on both sides. How about some on the inventive story of Kuk Sool Won? Just a few points:

1. Suh, In Hyuk was born in 1939, claimed to start training with Grandfather at age 5 - in 1944. (Here I take some big guesses, but bear with me...ok?) Grandfather was the last "Royal Court Instructor" - last Korean Court ended in 1910, so lets assume for argument he was 40 to have this post. That means he was about 74 when he started training Suh, In Hyuk. OK, with me so far.

2. We know that Grandfather died during the Korean War from an injury, so between 1950 and 1953, so Suh, In Hyuk got around 6 - 9 years with Grandfather of training, making him around 11 - 14 years old.

3. He then claims that he travelled the length of Korea going to monasteries getting techniques, quite a feat for an 11 year old after a major war... and then founded Kuk Sool Won in 1958, and officially in 1961.

So, he collected all this as a child, walking around Korea going to monasteries getting techniques from monks that I guess taught no one else - and left no photos or traditions of their own (since none are in Korea today...). So Suh, In Hyuk was the sole person in the world to learn and transmit all this information ( as a child no less...). Whats more, if we are to believe the proses of long time Kuk Sool Won writer Jane Hallander, Suh studied many monks for a long time to get single techniques ( remember the story about the monk with the pipe?).

So, in the course of 1825 days, Suh travelled to and learned from enough monks to build a system.

4. Now, Seo, In Sun ( a brother) of Suh, took over the Korea Kido Hae in 1983, after it was abandoned for about 15 years, and with Suh founded the World Kido Assoc. Now, they claim to be in control of all 31 traditional Korean martial arts, and all those that they deem to add, eg Combat HKD and Hoshinkido HKD, and issue certs to that extent, even though they are Kuk Sool Won, which they have said for years is NOT HKD. Now, Seo has been ousted from Kido Hae, and starts a new orgainzation - not a Kuk Sool Won one, but a Hapkido one - strange- maybe to keep the cash cows of Combat HKD and Hoshinkido HKD happy, hmmmm... (Even though he has no rank in HKD)

Do any of you remember the great stories written by Jane Hallander? One of the most talented writers in martial arts. Remember when KSW had a story every month in one publication or another, well how did they all start? With the same half page of drivel about how KSW was an ancient Korean martial art passed down from generation to generation? Tell a lie often enough, right?

Suh claims to have trademarked KSW (although a recent check with US trademark registrations says no such record exists...) but in Canada, the trademark belong to a Master Moon, and in the UK it belongs to Fred Adams, niether have any connection to Suh - so were did the ancient stuff come from? In fact, a branch of the Korea Hapkido Association in Soeul had a building called the Kuk Sool Won, not unlike the Kuk Ki Won for WTF, I know, I have some certs from there from the early 1970's - again no connection to Suh, In Hyuk.

The first article written on Suh on his arrival to the US in 1974 states that he taught Kuk Sool Won Hapkido - and he learned from Choi, Yong Sul - but the story cahnged when he arrived in San Francisco.

Now a reality check, Suh came from Daegu City. The home of Choi, Yong Sul, Suh even claims they were neighbors - but never trained together. OK, but seems strange considering the nature of HKD and KSW.

Last thing, what does KSW mean again, National Techniques Center right, so we could have KSW Baking and KSW Auto repair...by the way is it Kuk Sool Won or Kuk Sool? I would never say Hapki for Hapkido.

A few thoughts,

Kevin Sogor

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

I am not trying to start a war, but there has been much talk about the relationship between Choi and Takeda, and I have Never seen a single post about the issue of the creation of KSW.

I would love more data on the subjest if I am incorrect, but this is all from published accounts of the story. I will happily provide the sources too.

Again, if I'm wrong, correct me by all means, but do so with some kind of proof, no a "Master told me so" thing -

Kevin Sogor

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

If I can just dovetail on your post------

"......1. Suh, In Hyuk was born in 1939, claimed to start training with Grandfather at age 5 - in 1944. (Here I take some big guesses, but bear with me...ok?) Grandfather was the last "Royal Court Instructor" - last Korean Court ended in 1910, so lets assume for argument he was 40 to have this post. That means he was about 74 when he started training Suh, In Hyuk. OK, with me so far.

2. We know that Grandfather died during the Korean War from an injury, so between 1950 and 1953, so Suh, In Hyuk got around 6 - 9 years with Grandfather of training, making him around 11 - 14 years old. ......"

GM Suh also made references to 5 notebooks left to him by his grandfather which contained considerable information about the material he would later use as the core of his system. There are, however, some interesting things that do not jive with Korean history at the turn of the last century.

1.) The Korean military and the Royal Household were in such a shambles that the Korean King had to call in Chinese advisors to help build a working army. This same king also hired a certain Japanese Lt. Reizo to come to Korea and help build a "special unit" dedicated to security for the King and the Royal grounds. This same Lt. was murdered in a rebellion by Korean military vets who objected to the special treatment and pay that the new special unit members were getting.

2.) The Chinese were ousted by the Japanese after a few years in the Sino-Japanese War in 1894. The Japanese tried to guide the Koreans to reform their governement and redefine the nature of how they defined a "state". Part of this was the Kabo Reforms of 1894 which included the development of a trained Police cadre through the establishment of a police academy. This was a pretty dismal failure and was crossed-up by the rise of nationalism in Japan that pressed for colonization in Korea. The result was that the Japanese took over security for Seoul and its precincts in 1907 and later took over the government, police and military in 1910.

So what does this have to do with your post? Well, lets do that math over again.

My understanding was that Grandfather Suh was considerably younger than 74 when he was injured in the Korean War. But lets just suppose thats accurate--- just for the sake of arguement. This would mean that he was born about 1880, yes?
Even if he got a position with the palace security--- no mean feat in and of itself--- he would have only have been 20 or so in 1900, yes? Following this logic, he would have been sent home to his family's village sometime around 1907 to 1910 when he was 27 to 30, yes? This raises some very interesting questions.

a.) The nature of palace security from 1880 to 1910 was so poor that various factions were constantly vying for who would control the grounds from time to time. Ultimately a group called the Guild of Peddlers volunteered to protect the king because they usual forces were either not competent or not trrust worthy.

b.) Where did Grandfather Suh get his material to put in his notebooks? Chinese Advisors? Lt Reizo? The Japanese forces that took over after 1894 (when he was 14???) ?

c.) It is a historical fact that the Korean forces were of such ppor condition and organization that the Japanese would only use them as beasts of burden to support their efforts in the Russo-Japanese War (1904).

My sense is that much like Suahm Dosa is for Joo Bang Lee, and Choi Yong Sul is for GM Ji, I will bet that Granfather Suh is more of a personality who is invoked to lend credibility to the KUK SUL WON curriculum. Nobody has actually read the notebooks, and GM Suh does not provide anymore details about where his material comes from. My suggestion is that we are dealing with personalities who are legends in their own minds and have bent things around to support their particular take on Korean martial traditions. I put this right up there with the folks who used to tell their students that the HwaRang warriors used TKD on the battlefield. :shrug: I don't fault GM Suh for propagating his take on Hapkido Mu-Do. I would have considerable more respect if his take was more in keeping with Korean martial traditions than in being yet one more revisionist contribution to Korean post-WW II mythology.

BTW: I HAVE approached the KSW people down in Texas to address some of these questions. They don't want to talk about it. They believe what they want to believe and do not want to have to deal with facts. Whatever.
Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[jkn75]

Hopefully, I can answer some of your concerns. I can't however address the History. Frankly, it is not discussed but I would like nothing more than a comprehensive history similar to Han Mu Do.

First, the Kidohae and Kuk Sool split over the issuing of certificates. As far as I know, In Hyuk Suh is no longer affiliated with the Kidohae or the World Kido Association.

Second, Kuk Sool is used when referring to the martial art "I practice Kuk Sool." Kuk Sool won is used to refer to the association "There is a Kuk Sool Won tournament". TKD provides an example: they don't say " I practice International Tae Kwon Do Federation" they say "Tae Kwon Do".

Third, some Kuk Sool people didn't like Jane Hallandar's writing. She got things wrong and cut and pasted the same 5 paragraphs in every article. However she loved Kuk Sool and did a lot for the association.

Fourth, Kuk Sool Won material in the textbooks is copyrighted and the Kuk Sool Won symbol is service marked. See here and search for Registration number 1234948.

Fifth, see Han Mu Do for the history of Dr He Young Kimm and Kuk Sool and the use of Kuk Sool Won Hapkido (about page 7or 8).

Finally, Bruce what instructors in Texas have you contacted? I'm just curious.

I hope this addresses some of the concerns about Kuk Sool Won. It is a good martial art even though it is similar to Hapkido, HRD, HMD, and DRAJJ. In the end though it comes down to quality instruction. There are good Kuk Sool instructors out there and regardless of the style, I would still be learning from them.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Thanks for the info. jkn75, but a few little items from your post...

Tae Kwon do is the name of a martial art, Kuk Sool Won (According to the trademark registration info you supplied) means Korean martial arts center - so what martial art is taught at this center? I have an automobile, but when asked which kind I say Jeep, not auto.

Jane Hallander wrote for Suh, In Hyuk for close to 15 years, you say she got stuff wrong, well, who was directing the articles?? And yes she used the same 5 paragraphs at the beginning of each story, because Suh, In Hyuk needed something to legitimize his art other than saying "I made it all up myself..."

Interesting to note that a large piece of Han Mu Do was from the teaching of Kim, Moo-wong, a student of Choi Yong Sul. I'll say it again, directly or indirectly, all roads in this vein seem to lead back to Great Grandmaster Choi, Yong Sul.

The split of the KidoHae and the Suh/Seo Family is still up for debate, maybe the topic of a new thread.

In my opinion, if the teaching of Suh, In Hyuk is for you that is awesome.

It is, as questioned in the first post of this thread, a repackaged version of the martial art taught by Choi, Yong Sul with some stuff that Suh, In Hyuk made up thrown in. That is fine, but it is not fine to call it an ancient martial art, or related to Korean Royal Court Teaching or anything other than what it is, and that is the amagamation of the art of Choi, Yong Sul and additions by Suh, In Hyuk. If that is your cup of tea, all power to ya.

Bruce, I loved the true historical evidence, many thanks, as always a great read...

New Year is upon us, Yahoo!

Kevin Sogor

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear JKN:

This was about a year ago. I had been involved in pretty heavy research into the MYTBTJ and Korean sword. Since I get not a few questions about comparing and contrasting various Hapkido arts I had planned to talk with a Mr. Harmon who had published a couple of articles in BLACK BELT magazine. Most of the questions were a bit technical, but nothing for anyone to be defensive about. In fairness, the first person I talked to was very helpful and cordial and his name I wish I COULD remember. Since he made reference to Mr. Harmon being at the school "over there" I assume that he was in the Houston area though perhaps across town from the main school. The next two were about as arrogant and snotty as ever I have run into. When they finally learned that I was calling from Chicago they put me on to Mike Hill the head instructor of the KUK SOOL WON folks here. I have to tell you that he was about as arrogant as the other two gentlemen. The message I seemed to get from the latter three gentlement was that I would be very lucky to ever be chosen to train in GM Suhs' MA, that they don't spend time discussing KSW material with non-members and that if I ever thought I wanted to try joining they would be willing to take a look at my technique and consider me for possible membership. I figured that any people who were that full of themselves would never find room for my growth in their lifestyles. However I was left to consider if they were that abrasive with everybody who call or if the fact that I was an experienced KMA asking intelligent questions put them off. Anyhow, as much as I have admired the wonderful attention to detail in their technique, I don't think you could drag me into a school full of those kinds of individuals. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hey Bruce,

Great point! I have had two KSW Black Belts at my dojang in the last year, one made locally here in Chicago, one from some other school.

Get this, at my own school, I was "advised" not to ask questions about KSW history or the founder or these two would leave (advised by the student of mine who brought them) - well I figuered their technique could talk for them - and it did, volumes.

I disagree that there is refined technique here, not from what I saw. Many of the techniques were over dramatic and many simply didn't work. What's more wierd is that the starting position for say a punch defence was so far apart from each other that the end of the punch was an arms length away from the defender. I am still let puzzled over that day.

OK, I know that they are two from a group, but still if this is representative of the KSW technique in general, I'll stick to boring old Hapkido.

Kevin Sogor

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

"........I disagree that there is refined technique here, not from what I saw. Many of the techniques were over dramatic and many simply didn't work. What's more wierd is that the starting position for say a punch defence was so far apart from each other that the end of the punch was an arms length away from the defender. I am still let puzzled over that day....."

Funny you bring this up as I have had some odd experiences with KS people over the last few years. They seem to be very good at what they do, but what they do has some pretty wobbly foundations in actual application. The combat distance you mentioned is one example as are the elongated stances. I trained in Shutokan for quite a few years and as long and painful as those stances were to train in, our students never used them in S-D drills or situations. In like manner there are a number of movements that I have seen KS people do which have legit and effective S-D applications but never seem to get beyond the theatrical or "after thought" stage in application. The much seen "rolling block" is used often as a flourish at the end of a technique but I have never seen anyone use it as an initial response to an attack where it would be at its most effective.

Curous stuff, this.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Hey Bruce,

I use rolling blocks aimed at pressure points all the time! My students and I can show you the bruises some time. LOL

(Yahoo for me right?)




Kevin Sogor

 

[jkn75]

If you look at the preface to the Kuk Sool Won textbooks, it says it most simply: Kuk Sool is not so much a martial art as it is a survey of the Korean Martial arts tradition. So are things going to overlap, yes.

All of these Grandmasters trained in the same region, is it beyond the realm of thinking that they at some point trained together, no.

It is not trademark information I supplied. This came from the federal government and it was provided because noone else could find it and it was said that Suh claimed to have trademarks. It was provided for the purpose that Kuk Sool Won is in fact trademarked.

You wanted to know what the difference between Kuk Sool and Kuk Sool Won was. If you want to know what is taught at a Korean Martial Arts center walk in and observe a class. There are also textbooks, DVDs and handbooks that show what we do in Kuk Sool. You will see similarities to Hapkido, etc. To be fair, there are similarities in Martial Arts from China, Japan, and Korea.

Choi, Yong Sul's background is somewhat cloudy. How did he learn his stuff? Was it just DRAJJ plus what he decided to throw in? Why is that OK for the basis of Hapkido but if someone uses Hapkido + something else to start a Martial Art, that's bad. I see the problem that you all have, that In Hyuk Suh will not admit to Hapkido+his stuff.

This is a great discussion. You guys have a lot of knowledge. I hope I have added somewhat to your understanding.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear JKN:

"......Why is that OK for the basis of Hapkido but if someone uses Hapkido + something else to start a Martial Art, that's bad. I see the problem that you all have, that In Hyuk Suh will not admit to Hapkido+his stuff....."

Thats pretty close for me, but please let me tweak it just a bit, 'kay?

My personal issue is now, and has always been that it is not too important to cause someone to admit that they are just a different tune formed from the same common melody. Rather, I would simply appreciate it if folks had been a bit more forthcoming or shot a little straighter with people down through the years. For example, its not all THAT important that Joo Bang Lee own that he got the greater portion of his stuff from Choi. What I would hope is that he not have constructed all the stuff about being the 59th grandmaster of a HwaRang lineage going back to the HwaRang Warriors. The same goes for In Hyuk Suh. OK, so he developed his own spin on Chois material. Thats fine, but why embellish it with tales that suggest he tramped Korea seeking out many masters, and combined that with material from notebooks his grandfather left him. I still have a copy of Kwang Sik Myungs original gold book ("Art of Masters") where he talks about getting his inspiration from a retreat into the mountains. Did he think noone would find out he trained under Han Jae Ji?

I know some people go the other way and say that none of this makes ANY difference, and to an extent that is probably true. However, I can't shake the feeling that there is simply something not right about someone who misrepresents or embellishes the truth to validate his efforts. It just feels "Cheesy", ya know?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[greendragon]

<<You know, Todd, a guy could be forgiven for thinking that it is hypocrisy not neo-confucianism that drives the Hapkido world. >>

Actually Confucianism has nothing to do with Hapkido or martial arts. Confucists thought martial arts should not be practiced and wanted and tried to do away with them. Hapkido and martial arts are more akin to Buddhism and Taoism and have nothing to do with Confucianism.


<<GM Lim is coming to Chicago and I for one would like to attend his presentation. What I am here to tell you is that I don't need someone to show me how to execute a technique against great resistance, how to crank harder, sweat more or condition myself with greater e'lan. >>

Why not? No disrespect but it sounds like you have it all figured out. So why do you ask so many questions? Why do you need someone to give you more "soul"? Sounds like you need a guru or a spiritual leader to follow instead of a hardcore down to earth Hapkido Master. I think in the Hapkido world you will find your "soul" while you sweat, crank harder, and learn how to execute a technique against great resistance. Being that Hapkido comes from a line of martial artists that pride themselves in serious self defense and looking further back to the times of Zen Buddhism in martial arts whether it is the Rinzai or the Soto sect the feeling is that you learn thru your own sweat and doing. To say you don't need that is amusing to me. Doing builds your discipline which in turn builds your willpower. Again no disrespect but it sounds like you want Hapkido to be a neat little intellectual exercise more like a short philosophy or history class, well first and foremost Hapkido is for battle. That means doing techniques against people that want to do you harm which means strong resistance with little or no verbal massage... IMHO
Michael Tomlinson

 

[jkn75]

Bruce,

I definitely see your point and of course you don't need me to reassure you that they are valid. After reading a comprehensive history of someone (my favorite example is Dr. He Young Kimm), the whole going master to master thing is not going to fly unless names are named. Did In Hyuk Suh get instruction from his Grandfather and some training manuals from him? It is possible but with the history being what it is, it is not concrete. Who was the Great Monk of the North? (For my theory see my second post from this thread)

There are definitely things out there that could be cleared up but In Hyuk Suh is sticking to his story and as of yet hasn't revealed everything about himself. Hopefully that day comes soon.

:asian:

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michael:

".......Why not? No disrespect but it sounds like you have it all figured out. So why do you ask so many questions? Why do you need someone to give you more "soul"? Sounds like you need a guru or a spiritual leader to follow instead of a hardcore down to earth Hapkido Master. I think in the Hapkido world you will find your "soul" while you sweat, crank harder, and learn how to execute a technique against great resistance. Being that Hapkido comes from a line of martial artists that pride themselves in serious self defense and looking further back to the times of Zen Buddhism in martial arts whether it is the Rinzai or the Soto sect the feeling is that you learn thru your own sweat and doing. To say you don't need that is amusing to me......"

I think you may have taken what I said out of the context in which it was expressed. If you tease out just that particule statement it does seem that what I am saying is that I am above whatever someone would have to teach me. But if you read the entire passage, you will probably see that I am saying something quite different.

I advocate for the KMA not just as a Physical Education or physical culture but a way of living ones life. This includes not just behaviors but values or an ethos as well. What I was saying was that I don't need one more person to come to my town, represent himself as a teacher and limit his transmission to teaching me how to hurt people. What I was saying was that I am already pretty competent at hurting people if I have to. Rather, I need someone who can come to my town show me how various material is used on the mat, but also demonstrate how he has come to embody the art he practices throughout his life. This has been the traditional position of the teacher in Korean culture for generations. I think if you asked most people they would say that they don't need such mentoring. I think the word you used was "guru". However---- look what happens when a particular teacher is not even up to such responsibilities. Suddenly people start talking about fraud, alcoholic behavior, selling certs, risque or inappropriate relationships with students and so forth.

Here in the States there are a large number of folks who believe that high profile figures in sports and entertainment should be held to a different standard of conduct because of their visibility and influence over the population. I know that a great number of people certainly expect school teachers to be mentors and good role models for their students. Is this too much to ask of individuals who purport to represent a culture and activity dedicated to producing a higher quality human being? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[greendragon]

Bruce,
I agree with you on that one, I too have butted my head into the wall about how the moral, physical, and spiritual just don't seem to match up with a lot of the gm's in the martial arts.. so maybe I did read your post wrong,, sorry dude,,,
It seems like we see this kind of thing over and over with the Korean Martial Arts and ALL martial arts for that matter.

Being a high school teacher I am well aware that I am held to a different standard and I am expected to morally and ethically act in a certain manner... for me... it is no problem because I feel that I should act that way and live my life accordingly anyway so the extra social pressure put on me is ok with me... am I politically correct all the time? Not even close but there are boundaries in my social and professional life that I will never cross.. but you can still voice your opinion..

I also agree with you about the ridiculous double standard given to athletes etc.. it makes me want to vomit.. and I am an old college athlete and coach. Give me a player that wants to work out and get better and that is what makes coaching enjoyable, not all the glamour and glitz.. oh and we DID win the state championship in High School Football this year at my high school here in Florida. A great group of guys that played all year as a team and not a bunch of ego all stars... it was cool to see and be a part of.
Take care and happy training...
Michael Tomlinson

 

[jwreck]

glad2bhere,

if you'd still like to contact master Harmon, here is his email adress [email protected] . From my experience with him I'm sure he'd be willing to help. Also, here is our school website here.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Jwreck and Michael:

Many thanks for your respective contributions.

Oh, and Happy New Year!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I know some people go the other way and say that none of this makes ANY difference, and to an extent that is probably true. However, I can't shake the feeling that there is simply something not right about someone who misrepresents or embellishes the truth to validate his efforts. It just feels "Cheesy", ya know?

Hapkido training is about developement. Develope the body through hard training. Develope the mind through hard training. Develope the charachter through hard training.

Hapkido is about truth,

With who you are and where you have been (Your history).

Do the techniques work and make sense?

It almost seems that many of Doju Nim Choi's students learned the physical tech. but missed the Hapki side. Just a thought.

Enough rambleing

Todd Miller

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

".......It almost seems that many of Doju Nim Choi's students learned the physical tech. but missed the Hapki side. Just a thought......."

I wouldn't try to speak regarding the Late Choi students such as GM Lim, but I would be the first to go out on a limb and state that this is probably very true of the Early Choi students (pre-1963).

My experience in researching Hapkido seems to support that while various individuals of standing in the HKD community talk a very good line about exotic belief systems and philosophies, their lifestyles and histories don't seem to support that they have actually inculcated such belief systems into their daily lives so as to represent living mentors of this sort of lifestyle. Instead what I see is a lot of political back-biting, ego-involvement, mean-spirited-ness and small-minded-ness----- in short---- all of those things which a lifetime of training is suppose to help us overcome. For me, I identify a tree by the fruit that it bears. Talk is very cheap and certs and licenses are a hundred a penny (maybe almost literally). A teacher is one who teaches, and more so by example. Somewhere this seems to have gotten lost.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

all of those things which a lifetime of training is suppose to help us overcome. For me, I identify a tree by the fruit that it bears. Talk is very cheap and certs and licenses are a hundred a penny (maybe almost literally). A teacher is one who teaches, and more so by example. Somewhere this seems to have gotten lost.

I think the problem comes in when people think that Hapkido or any old style traditional martial art will make them rich or even moderatly wealthy! We all know people in every walk of martial arts life that have done this and then look at what rich traditions become. I agree that the person or persons I call teacher must have some qualities such as honesty, integrity and careing about there students and what there teacher has passed down to them.

Todd M.