Differences between HKD and Kuk Sool

[Andi]

Hi guys,

interesting discussion. For a while now I've been wanting to get into HKD, but there's no schools around me for about a hundred miles so I've not pursued it, but today I found out there's a KS school not too far away.

However, looking through this thread there seems to be a fair bit of negative stuff about KS, and I'm not sure if it's worth me trying it. I suppose I won't be particularly exposed to much of the politics to start with, but I've heard KS is quite big on the theory and history of the art. Now if they teach what appears to be a pack of lies about the history, I'm going to have a problem regurgitating it when it comes to test times and just generally. Or is it just little adjustments to the truth? Not that I'd be too happy with that either, but you're going to get that in every system.

Any input you might have would be appreciated. Also, could any KS practitioners have a look at this site and see if it looks about right? Ta. It's phrases like

"For self-defence, Kuk Sool is unsurpassed."

and

"We are a black belt school and you will recieve instruction over a four year period, which will result in your promotion to black belt at the conclusion."

that make me a bit hesitant.

(This is all a bit academic at the moment, I won't be free to train for a few months anyway!)

 

[Disco]

"We are a black belt school and you will recieve instruction over a four year period, which will result in your promotion to black belt at the conclusion."

that make me a bit hesitant.

If I may, what actually makes you hesitant about that statement?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Disco:

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that a school offers a 4 year program with an eye towards preparing a student to test for their Cho-dan by the end of that period. I have students who are really dedicated, and some that sorta pick and choose with their training. Were I a commercial school, I think I would want to make sure that if the student didn't hold up their end, I would not be held responsible for not making things happen. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

Bruce, what you say makes sense. I think that the statement - "that makes me a bit hesitant", was directed at the length of time it would take to become a BB. Perhaps someone feels that 4 yrs is to long of a period to commit to. On the other hand, 4 yrs is most likely the norm for this school. I'm pretty sure that a student who excells, will have a shorter time line.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Disco:

I know what you are saying. I just had a go-round with Frank over on BUDO-SEEK on a closely related subject and still can't figure how such thinking come into KMA.

The first issue is the idea that 4 years is a long time. Maybe its because people can earn a BB in TKD in two years, I don't know. In the kwan I belong to it takes five years. But it galls me because the idea of getting a BB in Hapkido after a couple of years has worked its way into the KMA community.

Another issue is the idea that Hapkido is whatever someone puts together. Who starts this stuff? I'm trying to figure out what other martial art someone can put together what they want, study as little as they want and then feel that they deserve to be validated as a legit art.

Sometimes I think all that ugliness of a few months back was just the tip of the iceberg. Underneath, where people can't see, I am getting the feeling that there are entrenched beliefs that have more to do with buying image than learning a MA. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Andi]

That statement on their site only concerned me insofar as it sounded like a guarantee of getting your first degree by some specific point. I thought it sounded a bit McDojangish or like one of them ads at the back of Black Belt. I wasn't suggesting four years was too long to reach a decent level of proficiency. The mere fact that they say four years and not six months is probably a good sign. It's probably just a few poorly constructed phrases that I'm picking up on.

Any thoughts on my other questions at all? Is Kuk Sool worth bothering about as an alternative to (unavailable) HKD?

 

[iron_ox]

Hey Andi,

I think you are on the money to be a sceptic! This KSW stuff is for all intense and purposes an "American" import, and as such works on that business model. So, when they say "hang around for 4 years to Black Belt, that is what they mean. I was around in Norwich when Grand Poo-Bah Suh showed up to import KSW to Britain - they could hardly contain themselves when they heard that the name KSW was trademarked already in Britain...in fact, they had to use a bunch of other language to write the first real articles about it. I saw the first round of photos not put in the magazines, and have never seen a punch block attempt done at 6 feet away from someone.

Look, Suh made this stuff up from a very little Hapkido and a little Northern style kung-fu - I have had several KSW guys train at my school, and the vast majority of THEIR stuff didn't work at all (maybe it was just those three) - I leave that for you to decide.

Anyway, I see you live in Birmingham, I wll call my friends in the area and see what else they can recommend.

Just one other point that I will question forever: KSW means "National Skills" - this could be then KSW gardening, KSW driving, for what it is worth, when Suh first showed up in the US, he was interviewed by a magazine and said he was teaching Hapkido from the training of Grandmaster Choi, Yong Sul. Then, he realized how far down the ranking food tree he was, and by the time he got to San Francisco, he was the blah-blah generation of KSW, only to change it again after it was found out he created it himself...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

Have a copy of SECRETS OF SEVEN STAR PRAYING MANTIS and can readily see many connections between the manner in which the body is used in this art and that of Kuk Sool. I had been pressing the relationship between Long Fist and Tan Tui in my research and it had been going nowhere. Hooking, control of the elbow and the same easy transition from parry to strike are all evident. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[jkn75]

There are good people in Kuk Sool and the techniques you learn are effective. Those choice of phrases (kuk sool unsurpassed and 4 years to black belt) are a little poor, I personally wouldn't use them.

The one advantage of Kuk Sool is they teach all ranges. You learn punching and kicking, wrist and clothing grabs, and ground fighting and grappling.

I would encourage you to go visit the instructor and take a look at a class. If you like the instructor, give some classes a try. Some people like Kuk Sool, and others obviously don't. Good luck to you.

 

[glad2bhere]

There are also some KSW derivatives including Master Yang out of California and Master Timmerman out of Canada. Same beer, but different ways of grabbing the mug, ne?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Andi]

Kevin,

if you do hear of any good instructors around here I'd be very grateful to know about it, so thanks a lot for that. I've heard a few things about the political side of things over at Norwich, not too much, but enough to make me slightly cautious. But I think I will go down and see what they're about, I've got nowt to lose. Thanks for everybody's help.

 

[jwreck]

One thing I noticed is that his curriculum is a little off from the textbooks. Things he has you doing as a brown belt we did as a blue belt. However, I agree you should see it in person first, then make your judgement.

 

[kwanjang]

Kevin writes:
Just one other point that I will question forever: KSW means "National Skills" - this could be then KSW gardening, KSW driving, for what it is worth, when Suh first showed up in the US, he was interviewed by a magazine and said he was teaching Hapkido from the training of Grandmaster Choi, Yong Sul. Then, he realized how far down the ranking food tree he was, and by the time he got to San Francisco, he was the blah-blah generation of KSW, only to change it again after it was found out he created it himself...

Sincerely,
Kevin Sogor

Greetings:
Kuk is National, Sool can (and in the case of Kuk Sool it does) mean technique (if we talk martial arts, we can assume martial art technique). So, the art is Kuk Sool (National Martial Art), and the association is WON.

FWIW. Anyone who thinks GM Suh's technique is not good has never been on the mat with him. Because I don't care for his business ethics, I am not a fan of his (as most folks know); however, the man is a very skilled martial artist, and regardless of our feelings this does not change.

Bruce:
I saw on another thread that you mentioned my name To fill in some of the blanks.

I traveled to Chicago by car (11 hours), I stayed overnight and left the next early morning to Houston, TX and did a seminar of Friday and another on Saturday. I left Houston on Sunday morning, got off the plane, and taught five hours in Chicago (you were there). Enjoyed the party after the event, and drove home another 11 hours. I had a blast

I hear some folks think I am too commercial. Well, let me tell you this. I donated every single penny that was taken in from the Chicago seminar to a Chicago Instructor, because I heard he was down on his luck.

I charge $45.00 per person for a weekend seminar (even though I am offered a lot more by some), and I charge $35.00 for a lifetime membership in my association. I don't tell folks they have to buy my certificates, I don't tell them they have to have me over for a seminar, I don't tell them how to run their business, and if they never want to see me again, I don't bother them.

If this is "too commercial", come and see my bank account. I am a poor (but very happy) man, my love is teaching Korean martial arts, I will get on the mat to work with anyone who is interested at any time, I still carry my white belt (because I am still a student), and I will definitely never get rich from what I'm doing.

I am 65 years old, I still do demos (despite the fact that I know they no longer are as good as they should be), and I will see you all in Jackson when I am 75 years old, because I love the arts and the people who go there to share and learn from one another. BTW, I teach free in Jackson too. So much for my commercialism.

Lastly, I don't sling mud or criticise without reason (or certainty of my critique), because in MY martial art that is simply not the Do.
Rudy W. Timmerman

 

[kwanjang]

Bruce writes:
There are also some KSW derivatives including Master Yang out of California and Master Timmerman out of Canada. Same beer, but different ways of grabbing the mug, ne?

Hello Bruce:
As JWRECK observed, there are some differences in the way the WKSA curriculum is now taught and the book (especially the old red book). If you look further down the road, you will notice that there are actually MANY differences since GM Suh had his first seminar in the US (I was there). IMHO, this is just a natural evolution that takes place and, if there are NO books or tapes, this is not even noticed. As Kuk Sool hit the US markets, there was a need to make some changes in order for the art (and the founder) to prosper, and so GM Suh set about making the art more palatable for the US market.

The art I teach was pretty much the same as it was in the beginning. My Instructor, GM Pak, did not want to change things. I still teach pretty much what I was taught (although I'm sure I have "personalized" some stuff), so that is the reason why I grab the mug differently

There was some talk about the art not being a solid martial art. I think that is nonsense. The art is as good as any art out there; however, there IS a disturbing trend to promote folks who are not good enough to pass the test. IMHO, this is going to come back and haunt the Kuk Sool folks. I have studied martial arts for 54 years, and I have (and still do) traveled the world over to learn and teach. I can say with all confidence that Master Sung Jin Suh (GM Suhs first born son) is one of the most accomplished martial arists out there. Sung Jin, KJN was taught by GM Seo for the first few decades of his life, and he is now taught by his dad. His skills are simply awesome, and he is a pretty good person to boot. Too bad he is going to inherit a heck of a mess.

On Jane Hallander.
Jane was a friend of mine, and neither she nor Robert Young, the Editor of BB, were fans of GM Suh. As it was often my job to take care of these folks at WKSA functions, I can tell you without hesitation that their relationship with WKSA was purely a business relationship. Jane had an amazing collection of information on Kuk Sool (and several other martial arts) on her laptop, and much of the Kuk Sool information was gathered while sitting in my hotel room with Mr. Young (and any other Masters who enjoyed a nip of Canadian snakebite medicine). As some of you noticed, the articles were simply put together by taking the information she had on her laptop and whatever information the particular subject of the story wanted to add. If that person had NO information, she could handle it all by herself. She was an authority on the art, and whoever inherited that laptop has enough articles to last a lifetime.
Rudy

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

It is my fervent wish that a host of folks who pass themselves off as leaders in the Hapkido arts would take even a single page from your notebook and give your approach to the martial arts a trial spin. As a teacher the true joy I have taken from attending your presentations is the result of watching someone who loves helping people understand and remember what you have to share. In my personal experience I have been to any number of seminars and events where those in attendence were overwhelmed with jargon and swamped with technical information. Your methodical and supportive manner assures folks that they will take away select portions of martial arts information that they can review and practice on their own when they return to their individual classes. I am sure this is the fundamental cause for so many people seeking you out and aligning with your organization.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Bruce:
You are making me blush my friend Just found this forum by accident, and it has some great stuff on it. I might contact you to get a bit more familiar with posting here. Until then, just give me a boot to the head anytime I make errors in posting

 

[kwanjang]

I have a confession. I hit the send button on one of my posts here before I checked my post for accuracy. I am actually younger than I look I am 64, not 65 as I posted.

I have one more thing to add. I am not sure who, but someone felt that Kuk Sool is NOT Hap Ki Do. That may be true; however, if what I do is not Hap Ki Do, then Grand Masters Kimm and JR West also practice some other art form. Our technique is VERY much alike. I have seen many other Hap Ki Do practitioners who are much harder in their approach and perhaps even a bit more linear. There IS a significant difference between some of the arts that claim to be Hap Ki Do, but I am not sure where the exact line is that makes on the real thing and others not.

To be sure, we all agree that combat Hap Ki Do is not from the same root, and I think even JP himself would agree. I am not talking about his art, I am talking about some of the arts like Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do, Sin Moo, Hwa Rang, Tukang Mu Sool, Han Mu Do, Dahn Mu Do, and Kong Shin Bup.

Even some of the founders claim NOT to be Hap Ki Do, yet, their technique (and that of some of the others) most certainly overlaps in some areas. I find it near impossible to say for certain that one IS and another is not of the same root. This brings me to my pet conclusion whenever I'm in doubt. IMHO, there is just too much natural influence from one country that has invaded another to be ignored. With Korea having been invaded by both China and Japan, it stands to reason that prudent Koreans (interested in nothing else but preserving their hide) would grab a good technique if they saw one, add it to their bag of tricks, and damn the origin.

Even if we disregard war as a reason for adopting the best techniques, the common belief is that GM Choi studied in Japan; hence, what many claim to be pure Hap Ki Do has a definite Japanese flavor. GM Ji studied with GM Choi, so the flavor continues but has some added ingredients. GM Suh, Seo, and Pak all trained with GM Choi and added their personal favorite ingredients.

In Northern Canada, you can hardly tell the Michigan Youpers apart from Canadians. They both say eh, and they even look alike... a Bud in both hands. No one can get me to believe that Koreans and Chinese who lived side by each for so long did not use very similar martial art techniques. Just like I can't tell who started the "eh" thing (Michiganders or Canucks), I believe one could not say which of their particular flavor of martial art was Korean and which was Chinese.

When GM Suh organized his Kuk Sool, he had one thing in mind... to systemize ALL of the Korean arts he could find, including the particular art that was practiced in the border region. Did he succeed, heck who knows. All I know is that he told me first hand that this was his intent when he launched Kuk Sool. With documentation as scarce as it is, all we can do is make an intelligent decision who and what to believe. Such decisions are purely personal (unless someone can SHOW me the documentation to prove otherwise. Until then, I think I'll just be happy to continue to practice whatever art they teach, and leave the worrying about where things originated and who has the right to call his art Hap Ki Do to Bruce et al. I don't envy you my friend, because I strongly believe you are chasing a greased pig on a slippery slope. IMHO the entire issue is not worth worrying over, certainly not worth arguing over, and never ending.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

Sorry about the blushing thing, but I want to make a response to something you said and before I do I need to make two things clear for whoever else is reading this. One, is that I am not a member of your NKMAA so what I am about to write gets me no currency with the organization. The second is that I have something of a reputation as a gadfly for KMA leadership. When I see someone screwing-up I think it needs to be brought forward and talked about as uncomfortable as it might seem at the time. However, I think it is also imperative that when someone is doing great things, and is an example of HOW-TO do something that likewise needs to be brought forward so folks can learn from that, too. So, I said all of that to say this, and I base it on the two times we have spent time together in an educational setting. I call it

Five Things Rudy does Right at His Seminars.

1.) When Rudy starts his seminars he makes it clear what he knows, what he doesn't. This a far cry from some folks who want their attendees to think they have the market cornered on information. What makes this important is that Rudy then identifies a specific and discrete amount of information or material upon which he is going to focus at that event. I am NOT talking about telling people that "we'll be covering basic techniques" or "we'll be covering sword techniques". At the seminar I was at Rudy introduced himself and indicated that we would be covering the 10 introductory techniques to Kong Shin Bup. I suppose he could have said "we're going to work on wrist locks today" but think of how extensive such a goal would be. Rather he identified a small and reasonable number of skills people would want to walk away from the seminar with.

2.) Rudy guides little--- and with a light touch. At first glance people might balk as "guides little" might suggest that Rudy is sitting back and not doing his job. In fact, quite the opposite. As a teacher he can quickly identify a single aspect that person can work on to improve a technique, make sure the person understands the comments and then moves on to let that person work. 15 corrections in 14 minutes and micro-managing is defintiely not his way, thank gawd.

3.) Rudy is not afraid to say things like, "I don't know", "I'm not sure", "we don't have that in the material I teach", or "thats not the way we do it". Most of the folks whose events I visit seem to have the need to let people know (however covertly) that they have all the answers and so does their art. Rudy teaches what he teaches, and what you see is what you get.

4.) Rudys' instruction model follows the common model for all good instructors. As a developing teacher I was advised repeatedly that a good teacher will "tell you what he is going to teach you, teach you what he said he was going to teach you and then tell you what he taught you". Visiting Rudys' class, he tells the practitioners what he is going to teach, then teaches the technique, then summarizes what he has taught. An excellent model that all but guarentees that students will remember what they experienced. Certainly with his knowledge base Rudy could teach a technique and then swamp the attendees with 15 variations, but why?

5.) Finally, Rudy works within the context of an organized curriculum. Now I know just about everyone has a bunch of techniques that they teach and they then identify what they teach as an art. Rudy uses an organized curriculum such that at any given time he can say "you are here". Furthermore, when people ask about ancillary material he can say things like "that is over here" in relation to what he is teaching that day.

Now, I will say again that this is not written to necessarily toot Rudys' horn. Honestly if you go to JR Wests' events through the USKMAF you will see all of the same qualities. These folks are teachers in the best sense. People who attend their events come away knowing more than they did before, connecting with like minded practitioners and are shielded from petty politics and bickering. I write this because people need to know that when folks are doing things right they deserve to be both recognized and emmulated. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[jwreck]

The art is as good as any art out there; however, there IS a disturbing trend to promote folks who are not good enough to pass the test.

This along with the contracts, fees, and baby step method of teaching has caused me to abandon KSW, at least at the school I was studying. Perhaps under a teacher who is more interested in the quality of what I was learning than how much I am paying I'd feel differently, and if I find a teacher like that, I'd gladly take up Kuk Sool again.

 

[kwanjang]

Wow Bruce. Now I'll have to tell folks I have a bad sunburn I'm so redfaced.

Anyway, I have a good reason to teach the way I do. In many places I go to do a seminar, I see folks who need more "foundation stuff" so they can better do the things they have already learned. Many seminar presenters show the fancy stuff that makes them look good; however, they fail to teach the foundation upon which the good looking stuff is built so that the participant can look good. Furthermore, they don't even mention that this basic stuff is needed to make it work, and that is how you get the errors that I saw Master Pellegrini make a while back in Los Angeles.

Mnid you, I have seen JP do some very nice demos (better than my own), but I have also seen a lack of understanding of some of the materials he acquired from GM Seo (who, because of his language, does not explain this much detail). When you now TEACH this stuff as if it were your own, you expand on this problem and it goes on and on.

What does this have to do with this subject is simple. I don't want to spread technique that has no solid foundation, as in our arts many techniques will come around again and again in various different forms and applications. Hence, knowing the basic formula is essential to not just one technique, it is paramount to learning Hap Ki Do (or reducing it to so much worthless fluff).

In a seminar environment where I am happy, I'll teach this way. If I have landed in a place where I feel uncomfortable, I give them more technique than they can handle. They think they hit the jackpot, I know they haven't learned a thing. Because I do check out who asks me to give a seminar, this has only happened once or twice.

In other locations, like Jackson, I am "given" a task to do, and I do it. For example, JR might ask me to teach Poh Bahk Sool, and I feel OK doing that because the folks coming to Jackson by and large already are Hap Ki Doin with pretty sound basics. Still, I try to throw in how the particular technique is "linked" to an empty hand technique they already know. Again, I do this to show that understanding the relationship between the various techniques will help you learn them much quicker.

When I was asked to do pyung soo techniques one year, I brought a bunch of concrete to have folks try the technique; however, the hotel did not allow breaking in their ballroom, so we ended up doing a 2 hour KI breaking seminar in the parking lot. This was so popular that I had just about every attendee in the parking lot. I ended up doing this several years in a row, and now many folks who attendd have a different understanding of palm strikes. As a teacher, I am delighted in that, and it made my palm strike seminar worth while for the participant. Instead of just striking with an open hand, they now strike with KI. Could not have been done without the parking lot session IMHO, and that would have made the actual seminar worthless.

I guess it boils down to one thing... teaching according to a plan. Not just "showing" a bunch of techniques without "teaching" anything.