Differences between HKD and Kuk Sool

[kwanjang]

Jwreck:
I see from your location you might have trained at the WKSA HQ or perhaps Master Harmon's place (good Instructor). If training at HQ, you most likely had a "wandering" black belt Instructor from another school to teach you. IMHO, the HQ lacked focus on what was being taught, because Instuctors changed as often as a baby needs diapers changed.

I hear you loud and clear about fees, as they were no doubt a bit on the pricy side when compounded with the testing fees, black belt doboks, general's doboks, and much more stuff that you were expected to purchase. This was just was too much for many, and in Canada we had the exchange rate on top of that; hence it became impossible to "sell" the art to prospective students. Too bad, because the art is great IMHO.

While the prices etc. were a sore spot with the students, I personally became disillusioned with the fact that students without sufficient skill were awarded black belts; hence, quality went down the tubes. Despite their quality problems, these black belts were almost at once expected to go out and start their own schools. Now you have inexperienced black belts who lack skill spreading their lack of knowledge. IMHO, that WILL come back to haunt the WKSA sooner than later. Unfortunate indeed.

 

[jwreck]

Yes, I'm at the Harmon's school. I like working with them (either Barry or Choon Ok), but I hardly ever see them, at least don't learn from them. There are numerous black belts there who can't perform basic techniques. What's really fun is when you see them then trying to teach techniques that they don't understand to lower level students! The whole attitude of the school has taken on a very McDojang feel since Ii started there a few years ago. They give belts to those who have paid there money, regardless of ability. If you can kinda fake the motions of techniques, they are considered "learned". Then the money thing on top of that was enough to make me quit a few months ago. Luckily, I was ordered to take a break by my employer, and they let me out of my contract. Then informed me how much more it'd cost if I decided to come back ($30 per month additional). I think its sad that people who obviosly have the abilities that the Harmons do, are allowing their school to water down their art. I think maybe they've just reached a point where their focus is elswhere, other than the Dojang? I don't know. ANyway, I don't mean to rag on anybody. Their school is very popular and I'm sure they're making good money and helping to spread Kuk Sool, its just not the way I'd choose to do it, and its not the environment I want to learn in.

 

[jwreck]

Just wanted to add, I do think Kuk Sool is certainly an excellent MA, and maybe someday I'll come back to it.

 

[kwanjang]

Hello JWreck:
I have known Barry KJN for a long time, and he and his wife are both good people; however, the money thing seems to have gotten to the entire TX group. No wonder, because Sa Mo Nim seems to push that sort of thing.

There are other arts out there that teach good stuff, and I do hope you will continue training somewhere. I don't know your rank, and I'm not sure if this will help; but, there is a KSN by the name of Kat Kelly who teaches in Braeswood. Can't hurt to visit that school, and see if it is to your liking.

 

[jwreck]

I appreciate the encouragement. I'm a Dahn Bo Nim. When they hit me with how much it was goin to cost to get my black belt, it was the final straw for me. Braeswood is a little further than I want to drive, but I may check it out. Of course, I'm pretty sure everyone in this area has to go to HQ for black belt testing. I'm looking into Aikido currently,, but I haven't decided anything for certain. I know I'm haveing serious withdrawel from not doing MA for 3 months! Anyway, thanks again.

 

[kwanjang]

I hear you about the drive. As far as being "tested" in front of Kuk Sa Nim, you are probably right again. I used to have to bring him all the way to Canada to have him "test" my students. Problem was, it is hard to see what is going on on the floor while in my office counting money.

I have tested many WKSA students all over the place, and it never made a difference if I signed test forms as passed or if I failed the person. What a charade. Anyway, best wishes in finding a school and do continue. You are Sooooo close.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Jwreck:

Not too put too fine a point on this, but may I make an observation, and I will use myself in this comment (please God it comes out right)?

I am NOT a member of the NKMAA as I have said before. I continue to make this clear so that people understand the value that I place on good teaching OVER organizational affiliation. In my own case I would (and have) attended Rudys' events (JR Wests' as well) for no reason other than that I know there will be sound, well-thought-out and satisfying training. In my experience, a persons' membership in an organization or affliation to a known accomplished teacher does NOT automatically make THEM an accomplished teacher. Often, when someone asks my opinion of an art I withold much of what I would say because so much of an art is dependent on the quality of instruction. For instance, I, in good conscience, cannot recommend Kat Kelly as an instructor as I have never had the experience of her teaching model. Rudy CAN make such a recommendation because he is intimately familiar with her teaching skills. Make sense so far? If it does, I said all of THAT to say this.

IMVVHO I think it is a mistake to draw automatic parallels between good instruction and organizations. For instance, I have only witnessed Master Harmons' abilities in his magazine articles and my efforts to connect with him regarding my research. It would be unfair to extrapolate from such articles to presume to make comments about his teaching skills. But what is more to the point I think it is unwise to characterize an entire organization based on a small number of experiences in a select area. Organizations only serve to increase the probability that one will find like minded folks with whom to communicate, but it does NOT guarentee this. In this way I do NOT speak to the NKMAA as a constellation of stellar teachers. It may turn out as such but I have no experience along these lines to date. I DO know that Rudy is an accomplished teacher and I would trust his observations in identifying likewise accomplised teachers.

In summary, then, were I to offer advise, it would be to the effect that you move away from the idea of organizational affiliation and focus more strongly on locating an accomplished teacher. These are difficult to find and may often require considerable travel and personal inconvenience. The benefits, however, universally off-set the costs. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[dosandojang]

Kwang Jang Nim Timmerman, it is not only KSW that is all about the money...This is RAMPANT in TKD as well! I just wish that a classier KMA like KSW, would not stoop to the level of the WTF!

 

[kwanjang]

Greetings Bruce:
I totally agree with you on finding an Instructor instead of an org; however, it is hard to find a good Instructor to stick with, if this Instructor is tied to the orgs way of doing things. For example, I HAD to charge the big testing fees. Even if folks liked my instruction, they were often not able to stay with me if they wanted to be a black belt.

Dosan:
I am not familiar with other systems, so I can't comment.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

Absolutely. Sad but true.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[dosandojang]

Kwang Jang Nim Timmerman, but I am. I am a member of the Kukkiwon and WTF...And there has been a lot of corruption. Have you read about the WTF scandal on the DD recently? Believe me Sir, this bad stuff is not only happening in KSW....

 

[kwanjang]

Yes, I had seen the DD, and I am sad to hear of so much trouble in any art. I can still remember how taken I was with the lofty ideals such as the Tenets of TKD and the so called "virtues" of other Korean arts. Seems it is easier to write about these values than to live by them.

 

[dosandojang]

Amen Kwang Jan Nim, amen...

 

[jwreck]

Bruce, I was never interested in the organization to begin with. I was impressed with the art itself. Add to that the fact that the school is run by the Harmons, world renouned instructors, and it seemed like a sure bet. No big deal, live and learn. I'll study elsewhere. Surely there's someone around here doing what I would like to do. Thanks for the support all!

 

[kwanjang]

From what I see, your area is great for martial arts. If the Braeswood school is too far, perhaps one of the USKMAF schools will be closer. Check out their website for locations.

 

[NightShadow]

Hi everyone....

I am new here to this board but I found the subject matter interesting and thought I would post what information I have on this subject. First a little background. I have been taking HapKiDo since 1993. It was a style that to me just fit naturally with what I was looking for. Prior to that I had been in Shorinji Kempo (my first martial art style) followed by Wun Hop Kuen Do (my instructor in Shorinji Kempo moved away which is why I went to this style, it was great but had it's issues with the Sifu there who was almost never at classes because of his work schedule).

When I first joined in the HapKiDo school school I know we were part of one of the international associations. But towards the mid to late 90's the Grand Master decided to no break off ties with all associations because of various political reasons. At that point in time he changed the name and started his own association for it. It is know known as the World Moo Lim Do Association and the style is Moo Lim Do - Hap Ki Do.

The style is a very traditional HapKiDo style. We have no real stances, just an offense and defense stance and of course a horse stance. We do not have any forms or katas in the style. Most of what is taught is kicking techniques and the self defense or point techniques (locks, throws, grabs, strikes, pressure point attacks etc.) Weapons are not exactly taught unless you are black belt level on up and even then it is very basic skills that mostly are used in demonstrations. Reason being, the grandmasters philosophy is that if one cannot master them selves first there is no need to learn to use an extenstion of it.

Anyway... On to the interesting information. Granted there is some holes in it as well. This is because my grand master does not talk much about it and from those that have gained the information went to great lengths to get it.

My grand master is Kap Chul Lim. He came from Korea with his wife and son to the US in the mid to late 70's. After arriving here they lived with a host family in a small farming community. Master Lim began attending a University and also started teaching Hap Ki Do. His background in the style is interesting. He started his training as a young boy in Korea. I don't remember off hand who his instructor is, but I think I have that in some notes I somewhere. Later in life he did become a member of the Royal Guard in Korea and eventual was a member of the South Korean Special Forces (I believe during Vietnam). As a member of the Royal Guard and Special Forces teams we worked with various other martial artists several of which he had trained with growing up and later most of which moved to the US.

One of the individuals that Master Lim trained with growing up was Suh, In Hyuk. Both of which were trained under the same grand master in Korea and both were trained in Hap Ki Do. According to Master Lim's retelling Suh, In Huyk stole the "notebook" or scrolls from their school that contained the information on history of the style, techniques, etc and came to the US. As we all know Suh, In Huyk then coined the style Kuk Sool Won and started claiming it as the one true korean style dating back thousands of years. After this had happened Master Lim eventually came to the US as well.

Now, judging off the skills and technique of Master Lim and his son (Il Lim), I would have no doubt in believing that Suh, In Huyk is also of similar caliber when it comes to form and technique, especially since they all trained under the same grand master in Korea. I do think Suh, In Huyk has fabricated a lot of his story on Kuk Sool Won in an effort to market it more effectively. I for one would like to gain a better insight to the history of the styles as well since there are holes in the retelling of it. And even I am continueing to learn more as time goes by.

If nothing else I hope this helps to validate where Suh, In Huyk came from and the style he studied in before coming to the USA. For those that are interested, Master Lim has a school located Hollywood, CA and Layton, UT. His son is currently running the dojang in CA. If you are a HKD enthusiast you should stop by and check it out to see how it compares to other HKD schools.

- I will post more information as I get it as well....

Thanks!

 

[kwanjang]

... My grand master is Kap Chul Lim. He came from Korea with his wife and son to the US in the mid to late 70's. After arriving here they lived with a host family in a small farming community. Master Lim began attending a University and also started teaching Hap Ki Do. His background in the style is interesting. He started his training as a young boy in Korea. I don't remember off hand who his instructor is, but I think I have that in some notes I somewhere. Later in life he did become a member of the Royal Guard in Korea and eventual was a member of the South Korean Special Forces (I believe during Vietnam). As a member of the Royal Guard and Special Forces teams we worked with various other martial artists several of which he had trained with growing up and later most of which moved to the US.

One of the individuals that Master Lim trained with growing up was Suh, In Hyuk. Both of which were trained under the same grand master in Korea and both were trained in Hap Ki Do. According to Master Lim's retelling Suh, In Huyk stole the "notebook" or scrolls from their school that contained the information on history of the style, techniques, etc and came to the US. As we all know Suh, In Huyk then coined the style Kuk Sool Won and started claiming it as the one true korean style dating back thousands of years. After this had happened Master Lim eventually came to the US as well.

Now, judging off the skills and technique of Master Lim and his son (Il Lim), I would have no doubt in believing that Suh, In Huyk is also of similar caliber when it comes to form and technique, especially since they all trained under the same grand master in Korea. I do think Suh, In Huyk has fabricated a lot of his story on Kuk Sool Won in an effort to market it more effectively. I for one would like to gain a better insight to the history of the styles as well since there are holes in the retelling of it. And even I am continueing to learn more as time goes by.

If nothing else I hope this helps to validate where Suh, In Huyk came from and the style he studied in before coming to the USA. For those that are interested, Master Lim has a school located Hollywood, CA and Layton, UT. His son is currently running the dojang in CA. If you are a HKD enthusiast you should stop by and check it out to see how it compares to other HKD schools.

- I will post more information as I get it as well....

Thanks!

Greetings: Most of you know I have no special love for GM Suh; however, I do see a few qestions about this post. First is the timeline of your GM. Although you do not state his age, from the statement that he served in Vietnam I make some assumptions. I think it is highly unlikely that he served with the Royal Court. Just look at when that was disbanded to get an idea of how old your GM would have to be.

Second, you say that Suh stole the scrolls/book. This does not make a whole lot of sense to me, as there were VERY few recorded martial art documents around. To leave one that important lying around to be stolen does seem hard to believe. I guard my Master's records VERY carefully, and I would find it difficult to believe other Masters would be less careful.

I am not giving you a hard time, I am merely stating that we need to be careful before making such statements without more proof than what one GM claims over another. FWIW, GM Suh's eldest son, Sung Jin Suh, has a school in San Fransisco. A great guy, and excellent martial artist. Given the chance, I would not pass up dropping by his school to check him v/s YOUR GM's son. To call that visit interesting would not suffice.

 

[NightShadow]

I do not know my GM's age exactly, but I know he is around 65+. I believe this is similar in age to GM Suh as well.

Like I mentioned I know there are holes in some of the information I have, but the one thing I do know is the link between GM Suh and GM Lim.

Why would it not be feasible for Suh to have stolen the notebook from the grandmaster he studied from in Korea? GM Suh as well as GM Lim were top students under their grandmaster and I am sure they both (as well as other top students) had access to such an item as part of their training. To me it does seem feasible that something like that could very well happen. This can lead to What If scenarios of course as well. Such as What If GM Suh left Korea because he had taken such a valuable artifact and was in essence running from others seeking to return it to it's rightful place? According to GM Suh's history he came to the USA maybe 2-3 years before GM Lim did. By that time GM Suh had already been pushing Kuk Sool Won here in the states and established his history of that style... right or wrong.

Judging from the GM Lim and his son I have no doubt in my mind that GM Suh and his son Sung Jin Suh are of similar caliber and amazing to watch and work with, just as my GM and his son are the most talented martial artists I have seen. Unfortunately in Utah we don't have any Kuk Sool Won schools around that I could visit to compare other aspects with. I will be sure to stop by the school in San Fran though the next time I take a trip out that way.

Thanks.....

 

[kwanjang]

I do not know my GM's age exactly, but I know he is around 65+. I believe this is similar in age to GM Suh as well.

I guess we know from the age thing that he would NOT have been a royal court guard or whatever. Just too young for that.

Like I mentioned I know there are holes in some of the information I have, but the one thing I do know is the link between GM Suh and GM Lim.

I think you'll find that most of the martial artists involved in Hap Ki Do type training around that time worked together.

Why would it not be feasible for Suh to have stolen the notebook from the grandmaster he studied from in Korea? GM Suh as well as GM Lim were top students under their grandmaster and I am sure they both (as well as other top students) had access to such an item as part of their training. To me it does seem feasible that something like that could very well happen.

I don't think it is a good idea to call someone a thief without more proof, that is all. In fact, I would say you might be liable for slander.

This can lead to What If scenarios of course as well. Such as What If GM Suh left Korea because he had taken such a valuable artifact and was in essence running from others seeking to return it to it's rightful place?

As an immigrant myself, I can tell you that it takes years to be able to immigrate to the US or Canada... not a fast get away if you ask me. GM Suh was in fact invited by one of his students to come to the US. I was there when he held his first seminar on this continent in the early 70's.

According to GM Suh's history he came to the USA maybe 2-3 years before GM Lim did. By that time GM Suh had already been pushing Kuk Sool Won here in the states and established his history of that style... right or wrong.

My first Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do certificate dates back to the sixties. The art was already well established in Korea by that time, and a number of Masters were sent out in the world to promote it. My late GM was one of those.

Judging from the GM Lim and his son I have no doubt in my mind that GM Suh and his son Sung Jin Suh are of similar caliber and amazing to watch and work with, just as my GM and his son are the most talented martial artists I have seen. Unfortunately in Utah we don't have any Kuk Sool Won schools around that I could visit to compare other aspects with. I will be sure to stop by the school in San Fran though the next time I take a trip out that way.

You'll have a great time watching this young man do some awesome techniques. BTW, I would not mention that you as much as called his father a thief.

Thanks.....[/QUOTE]

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

"......Second, you say that Suh stole the scrolls/book. This does not make a whole lot of sense to me, as there were VERY few recorded martial art documents around. To leave one that important lying around to be stolen does seem hard to believe. I guard my Master's records VERY carefully, and I would find it difficult to believe other Masters would be less careful....."

Of course I can't know for sure, but this sounds like one of the standard devices one finds in Hapkido oral traditions. Another is "retreated to the mountains" or "trained in the mountains". Another is "was trained by an obscure monk" or "was trained by an itinerant peddler". Of course the idea of stealing the "sacred scroll" or "peering through a fence and ease-dropping on training" are a couple of more. In the Chinese (and Korean) tradition such devices are often used to validate an oral tradition and within the culture are usually accepted. Now, unfortunately, among our Western traditions we expect documentation including historically accurate information including names, dates, place names and so forth. Absent that, most Westerners have a problem with the "flexible" if quaint oral traditions not the least of which are the nasty little inconsistencies that pop-up on closer examination such as have been mentioned here. IMVVHO I think that if we were to look at the Hapkido story more objectively the tale might sound more like this. A group of young turks and MA advocates got together back and forth over time and decided to try to repeat the success of the TSD/TKD people in early post-war Korea. They had a falling out over who the leader would be so they went their separate ways and generated their respective stories to validate their individual efforts. ---- OK, so its not as romantic but I think its probably closer to the truth. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce