Dennis prager explains the middle east in 5 minutes

[Tez3]

Israelis are human, the Arabs are human, mistakes are made, postures taken, sides chosen.
You can believe one side is right and one side is wrong but allow for the frailities of humanity on both sides. It is a complex situation so much so that there are Arabs who fight for the Israelis and Israelis who believe the Arabs are right in certain respects. What it needs is for people to question their certainties and their so called knowledge of this situation and stop trying to turn it into a circus designed to make them look 'wise', it doesn't - it makes them look like a political commentator who has verbal diarroeha and mental constipation.

 

[CanuckMA]

except that it's true

the israelis are the good guys, the arabs are not.

are your family palistinian?

My family and friends live in Israel.

You make the mistake of seeing thins as back and white, Sesame Street level complexity, and you risk an all out war. It's easy for an American to say that. It's a lot harder when you know the people getting shot at personnaly.

Because I'm sure if we see a shooting war over Israel, it will get real nasty, real fast.

 

[Tez3]

My family and friends live in Israel.

You make the mistake of seeing thins as back and white, Sesame Street level complexity, and you risk an all out war. It's easy for an American to say that. It's a lot harder when you know the people getting shot at personnaly.

Because I'm sure if we see a shooting war over Israel, it will get real nasty, real fast.

It's easy for certain Americans to look at war being an easy solution, look at Iraq, Afghanistan et al. America hasn't had a war on it's soil since it's Civil War. It's troops know what war is like but the civilian population has no idea, I think 9/11 came closest to showing them what a war on home soil could look like. Imagine that times every city, town and village in America,the sheer horror of it and understand why despite who are obviously the 'bad' guys and who are the 'good' guys no one is anxious to have a full scale war in the Middle East. If it can be avoided it should be.

 

[Twin Fist]

now list the unprovoked rocket attacks INTO ISRAEL bob...............and the suicide bombers, and the car bombs and everything ELSE too.....

Nabatiyeh 21/03/1994(Lebanon)

Mnsuriah 13 April 1996

Nabatyaih 18 April 1996

Qana 18 April 1996

Janta 22/12/1998

Western Bekaa 29/12/1999

Jenin 2002

 

[billc]

Yes, a good first step would be for one side to stop firing rockets into Israel on an almost daily basis. I wonder how long any other country would take that before the also did something about it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/world/middleeast/24gaza.html

from the article:

At least one Katyusha-type rocket hit a street in the center of the southern Israeli city of Beersheva on Wednesday morning, slightly wounding one man and causing damage to nearby houses. Several mortar shells also fell on the Israeli side of the border with Gaza, the Israeli military said.
On Tuesday night, a longer-range rocket fell just short of the Israeli port city of Ashdod. The Israeli Air Force struck back at the spot from which the rocket was fired and killed a militant there, according to the Israeli military.
Gaza militants have fired a trickle of short-range rockets and mortar shells at southern Israel in recent months, but the longer-range weapons that reached deeper into Israel on Tuesday and Wednesday have been much rarer since the end of Israel’s military offensive in Gaza in January 2009.
-------------------------------

 

[billc]

And from wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2011

from the article:

This is a detailed list of Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israel in 2011 from the Gaza Strip.
[TABLE="class: toc"]
[TR]
[TD]

[h=2]Contents[/h] [hide]​

• 1 Overview and notable developments
• 2 January
• 3 February
• 4 March
• 5 April
• 6 May
• 7 June
• 8 July
• 9 August

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Yes, this should just be ignored. Perhaps if the rocket attacks stopped, there might be some room for talking.

 

[CanuckMA]

 

[Tez3]

Know how you feel, the world according to the American right is a scary and weird place. It's cost many lives so far and I wonder when they will stop their march towards the destruction of the world. It worries me because of the right wing Christian movements in America are supporting Israel for their own ends not for that of the people in the Middle East.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

*Sigh*

Some folks don't get it.

The "Good Guys" don't massacre children in school buses.

No matter what.

If you do, you are not the "Good Guys".

Not the Brits. Not the Israelis, and not the US.

I guess it was ok though. A Muslim suicide bomber blows up in a cafe in Tel Aviv, it's perfectly ok for IDF stormtroopers to machine gun children in retaliation, hundreds of miles away. Guess it's just as ok for the US to drop bombs on schools in Afghanistan, because some Saudi crashed a plane 10 years ago.

Here's an idea.

EVERYONE stop blowing **** up and killing each other.

Yeah, I didn't think that would go over.

Back to the hate tank and ignorant justifications for stupidity. Arguing here at times is about as useful as trying to build a wall by starting at the top. It's ok for the side you like to do what you condemn someone else for doing. Bollocks. Poppycock. and Bull ****.

I am so glad my time on this pile of dirt is winding down.

 

[Tez3]

If Canuck and I can see rights and wrongs, can see humanity and all its failings on all sides I'm damned if I can see why some are so stuck on everything being black and white. As I said there are Arabs in the IDF, have been since Israels inception, there are Israelis who demonstrate against what they see as Israeli wrongs. The Arabs and the Israelis are all people, the only way it will end is by negociation. Every war Great Britain has had against terrorists has ended by negociation and people sitting talking. It's not easy, there are fanatics on all sides but it has to be done, for all our sakes. If Americans take the view that Arabs are bad and Israelis are good it will end in disaster for many. Many Arabs say they won't stop until the Jews are all dead, driven into the sea but if the Americans say that the Arabs are so bad they should all be dead and driven into the sea where does that get us? We need peace, we need negociations not yet more hatred.

 

[billc]

There are Arabs in the israeli Knesset, Arabs are allowed to vote in Israeli elections, there are Arabs in the IDF, there are Arabs who are Israeli citizens, there are arabs and israelis protesting against Israeli actions...hmmm...are there any Israelis in the PLO? Any Israelis voting in Hamas elections? What would happen if Arabs in the non-Israeli areas protested against the actions of the Arabs, would they perhaps be killed. I believe several times the Israelis have tried to negotiate, and they got that Intifada thing in return. As one commentator pointed out, if the enemies of Israel put down their weapons, there would be peace that day. If the Israelis put down their weapons, there would be driven into the sea.

 

[Twin Fist]

we ALL know the truth

if the arabs dropped the ****, the israelis would too

if the israelis disarmed? the arabs would wipe them from the face of the earth

THATS the difference

we all know this, does ANYONE deny it?

 

[billc]

Unfortunately, Twin fist, they do.

 

[Tez3]

There are Arabs in the israeli Knesset, Arabs are allowed to vote in Israeli elections, there are Arabs in the IDF, there are Arabs who are Israeli citizens, there are arabs and israelis protesting against Israeli actions...hmmm...are there any Israelis in the PLO? Any Israelis voting in Hamas elections? What would happen if Arabs in the non-Israeli areas protested against the actions of the Arabs, would they perhaps be killed. I believe several times the Israelis have tried to negotiate, and they got that Intifada thing in return. As one commentator pointed out, if the enemies of Israel put down their weapons, there would be peace that day. If the Israelis put down their weapons, there would be driven into the sea.

Of course there are, they work for Mossad.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

we ALL know the truth

if the arabs dropped the ****, the israelis would too

if the israelis disarmed? the arabs would wipe them from the face of the earth

THATS the difference

we all know this, does ANYONE deny it?

You really believe this don't you?

You're half right.
If Israel disarmed, they'd be wiped out in a weekend. I don't see anyone calling for them to lay down their arms and report to camps though.

But if you think this is all 1 sided aggression, that the IDF is just fighting defense, that they aren't murdering innocents, children and non-combatives....then you aren't paying attention to reality in that part of the mid east.

I could get into a long list here, but why bother? Minds are made up and no amount of reason, evidence or will change their mind.

They bombed a god damned US warship and fired on a former US Congresswoman's ship.
That's not innocent behavior. Thats not an 'opps'.
That's hostile acts of war against an ally.
That's bull ****.

You don't really think that 'well, if the arabs would stop bombing coffee shops, the jews will stop blowing up their school buses' is a reasonable argument do you?


Oh and anyone here who thinks it's ok to murder kids because of their religion, or some archaic idea of 'eye for an eye'?
Get the **** off my forum.

-ANYONE- murdering innocents is a scum bag, and if you're trying to justify it, you're not welcome here.

Israel has a right to defend itself, like ANY other sovereign nation.
They don't have a right to do whatever they will, whenever they want, to whomever they please.
You can't have it both ways.

They want to be seen as the 'good guys'?
Then they as a nation need to act like the 'good guys'.
Until then, they are a rogue nation that needs a serious smack down.

 

[granfire]

Of course there are, they work for Mossad.

:duh:

 

[Tez3]

The whole idea of the existance of Israel is emotive and argumentative even among Jews, especially among Jews. The subject has a long history, the most recent of it started just after the First World War, it cannot be explained in five minutes, or five hours maybe not even in five years.
There is no country I think which can stir up so many conflicting emotions and so many arguments from people who aren't either Jews or Arabs. Everyone has an opinion on Israel. It's like it belongs to the world.
When civil rights are infringed, when war crimes happen yes those responsible should be held to account, there's no doubts there but there's no country that can point a finger at any other without first looking at their own conduct. Britain behaved appallingly to the Jews just before Israeli Independance causing the deaths of many Jewish settlers when they disarmed them and armed the Arabs. The British put Jews from the concentration camps in Europe trying to get to Palestine as it was then into a concentration camp on Cyprus. There's more, there's massacres on all sides, there's horrors, there's mistakes, there's confusion, there's media spin, propaganda and downright lies. Each wrong doesn't make a right. Mistakes do happen and innocents do get killed, the Americans have killed children and innocents in Afghanistan in the fog of war. It's horrible but no one would suggest that the American soldiers deliberately killed innocents
What I find worrying is certain Christian sects/beliefs ( I don't know what you'd call them) look to Israel to fulfil what they think is the second coming and the end of the world, to this end they are supporting Israel's worst elements to help hasten this end of the world thing. I believe that there are many American high ranking politicians and military who follow this belief.

What is needed, however difficult, however impossible it seems is talks round the table not more wars. The problem may be the Arab's sides, there is a power struggle going on among them to maintain to take control. I do think there are enough Israelis who will talk though. The problem is the people/countries in the background each urging the Israeli's and the Arabs on to hostilities rather than negociations.


I think Americans need to look at why America supports Israel, is it because it's the only democracy in the Middle East at the moment and it's a buffer against radical Islam or is it because the Christian fundamentalists are pushing their agenda? If the former and you are supporting Israel financially and morally then you should be pushing towards the moderates in Israel. At the moment you are supporting the hawks a la the fundamentalists agenda. I'm not saying that the wrongs Israelis may have done are down to you but I am saying you are supporting the wrong people if you want peace in the Middle East.

 

[Twin Fist]

you are goddamn right i believe it. because it is true.

ONE side tries for peace
ONCE side acts in self defense
ONE side goes out of thier way to avoid casualties

your thinking is so clouded by moral relativism that you cant see straight

Bob, you are wrong, and so wrong as to be termed 'full of ****" wrong

there are people, arabs, and HEADS OF ARAB STATES....... DAILY crying for the total and complete extermination of all jews, everywhere in the world..

there is one jewish state, and they aint asking for, or trying to achieve the total extermination of arabs,

it just isnt happening, why?

jews =good guys

arabs=bad guys

it is very simple

thier book tells them to kill all jews, so thier priests tell them to kill all jews so their leaders tell them to kill all jews so the PEOPLE want to kill all jews. Everything from thier church to thier politicians to thier GOD tells them to kill all jews.


Israel has the right to exist, and to protect themselves. We HAVE seen the mettle of the groups involved. Every single cease fire BROKEN BY THE ARABS

You really believe this don't you?

You're half right.
If Israel disarmed, they'd be wiped out in a weekend. I don't see anyone calling for them to lay down their arms and report to camps though.

But if you think this is all 1 sided aggression, that the IDF is just fighting defense, that they aren't murdering innocents, children and non-combatives....then you aren't paying attention to reality in that part of the mid east.

I could get into a long list here, but why bother? Minds are made up and no amount of reason, evidence or will change their mind.

They bombed a god damned US warship and fired on a former US Congresswoman's ship.
That's not innocent behavior. Thats not an 'opps'.
That's hostile acts of war against an ally.
That's bull ****.

You don't really think that 'well, if the arabs would stop bombing coffee shops, the jews will stop blowing up their school buses' is a reasonable argument do you?


Oh and anyone here who thinks it's ok to murder kids because of their religion, or some archaic idea of 'eye for an eye'?
Get the **** off my forum.

-ANYONE- murdering innocents is a scum bag, and if you're trying to justify it, you're not welcome here.

Israel has a right to defend itself, like ANY other sovereign nation.
They don't have a right to do whatever they will, whenever they want, to whomever they please.
You can't have it both ways.

They want to be seen as the 'good guys'?
Then they as a nation need to act like the 'good guys'.
Until then, they are a rogue nation that needs a serious smack down.

 

[Twin Fist]

oh, and i am not purely pro israel. I am in favor of cutting all US financial aid to that country, mostly cuz we cant afford it and they dont need it

 

[CanuckMA]

oh, and i am not purely pro israel. I am in favor of cutting all US financial aid to that country, mostly cuz we cant afford it and they dont need it

Can your defense contractors take that kind of financial hit?