prager university

[billc]

bhopal, accident. Love Canal, as I remember reading in Dixie lee ray's book, I think it was, the town and school board were told not to build anything on the site. The article you sited specifies this,

"Hooker Chemical sold this site to the Niagara Falls School Board with a deed explicitly detailing the danger contained within the site, and including a liability limitation clause about the contamination."

Far different than the intentional mass murders of close to 100 million people in the pursuit of true communism. Just because they didn't actually become communists didn't meant that they weren't eliminating both class enemies and personal enemies and anyone who got in their way. From Hitler, to Stalin, mao, Ho, pol pot, and the othe little communist movements, they all murdered in the name of the state. Intentionally. Not accidents with the crimes being the cover-up.

The reloacation and Indian wars were in the 1800's. The Mass murder of 70 million people happened after world war 2, the modern age. Stalin and Hitler were the 1930's and 40's. Vietnam and cambodia 1960's. Communism is based on destroying the current system and eliminating class enemies. Not exactly "turn the other cheek" philisophical content. Jealousy and hate for those who have more than you are part of the lifeblood of communism. As Capitalism advances it becomes better, as communism advances it kills more people.

 

[billc]

throwing out a Soviet, communist puppet, not a big deal. Carter helping religous fanatics take over, big mistake.

 

[elder999]

throwing out a Soviet, communist puppet, not a big deal. Carter helping religous fanatics take over, big mistake.

Again, a lack of critical thinking, for you wouldn't have had the one without the other, so long before......and Mossadegh's distaste for socialism was open and public; it was Winston Churchill's lies, born of frustration at the nationalization of Iran's oil, that labeled the freely and democratically elected president of Iran a Soviet, communist puppet.

The reloacation and Indian wars were in the 1800's. .

My friend and teacher, Henry Gomez, like many others, was forcibly removed from his home in Taos pueblo, was taken to a "boarding school," had his hair cut off, was made to wear unfamiliar clothing, and forbidden-to the point of beating-from speaking his native language.

In 1925.

 

[billc]

Millions of Kulaks were starved to death or outright murdered because they owned their own land. Was it a third of the cambodian population was murdered in order to create a "new Man." 70 million chinese, murdered in pursuit of the communist utopia, which they are now abandoning in favor of a more captialist model. What happened to your friend was wrong and shouldn't have happened. That doesn't make communism any less evil. Communists committed more murder than any other economic or political system. It has been tried around the world and resulted in the same tragic outcome. It's hatred of the rich leads to death and tragedy.

Love Canal was government incompetence as sited by your own source. the school board was warned of the danger and If I remember correctly they were told not to build anything on the site, let alone a school. They ignored the warning.

 

[billc]

Nice talking to you elder, sweet dreams. Don't let the bed bugs bite.

 

[elder999]

Love Canal was government incompetence as sited by your own source.

In my world, next to negligence, there is no greater evil than incompetence, and all of our governments, local, state and federal, in this, the greatest, best country ever given by God to man, are capitalist in their incompetence: Love Canal is a perfect example of evil motivated by base concern for profit and production, in this case from government entities at the onset, and corporations at the close: both the school board and Hooker Chemical refused to accept responsibility.

 

[ballen0351]

Well, communism, in its practice is evil. It has been tried around the world, by different cultures and has produced destruction on a massive scale.

I’m not sure Communism in its self is evil. In theory its the perfect society. The reason it will never work is because its done by man and man is not perfect. Its just not practical because man itself is flawed. For communism to really work we would have to give up things like a drive to do better, wanting nicer things, our individuality, our dreams of our kids doing better then us. It would rely on people inventing new ideas and products for the greater good and not for self benefit. It would rely on nobody being lazy and everyone doing their own part. I think where it has gone bad is people are not willing to do these things so they must be forced at gun point and killed to get them to comply and that’s where it becomes evil. Communism is just an idea and can’t be good or bad its how it’s applied.

 

[elder999]

communism is just an idea and can’t be good or bad its how it’s applied.

qft

 

[Blade96]

Millions of Kulaks were starved to death or outright murdered because they owned their own land. Was it a third of the cambodian population was murdered in order to create a "new Man." 70 million chinese, murdered in pursuit of the communist utopia, which they are now abandoning in favor of a more captialist model. What happened to your friend was wrong and shouldn't have happened. That doesn't make communism any less evil. Communists committed more murder than any other economic or political system. It has been tried around the world and resulted in the same tragic outcome. It's hatred of the rich leads to death and tragedy.

Love Canal was government incompetence as sited by your own source. the school board was warned of the danger and If I remember correctly they were told not to build anything on the site, let alone a school. They ignored the warning.

Actually at the time of Lenin's 'war communism' as it was called that period between 1918 and 1921 (when the New Economic Policy was introduced, true real kulaks, using the word as defined by the bolsheviks and not by tthe russian peasants themselves, made up about actually only 1% of the total peasant population. 'Kulak' a Russian word that means 'fist', as defined by the bolsheviks, was essentially a myth.

I’m not sure Communism in its self is evil. In theory its the perfect society. The reason it will never work is because its done by man and man is not perfect. Its just not practical because man itself is flawed. For communism to really work we would have to give up things like a drive to do better, wanting nicer things, our individuality, our dreams of our kids doing better then us. It would rely on people inventing new ideas and products for the greater good and not for self benefit. It would rely on nobody being lazy and everyone doing their own part. I think where it has gone bad is people are not willing to do these things so they must be forced at gun point and killed to get them to comply and that’s where it becomes evil. Communism is just an idea and can’t be good or bad its how it’s applied.

Wow, did I just agree with Ballen on something?

Probably the right thing to do is to have a mixture of a society with elements of both theories, the capitalist and communist/socialist. we cant be perfect but there are some good ideas in both theories.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Probably the right thing to do is to have a mixture of a society with elements of both theories, the capitalist and communist/socialist. we cant be perfect but there are some good ideas in both theories.

Having a society work in this manner I don't have a problem with. Having a government work in this way is where I have the problem.

 

[Blade96]

Having a society work in this manner I don't have a problem with. Having a government work in this way is where I have the problem.

well there seems like would be problems if a government decided to work using only one or the other, does there?

I am mostly leftist but even I can see that.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

well there seems like would be problems if a government decided to work using only one or the other, does there?

I am mostly leftist but even I can see that.

As it has been a long and stressful day for me, for now I will simply have to ask: what problems?

 

[Empty Hands]

As it has been a long and stressful day for me, for now I will simply have to ask: what problems?

There are many collective action problems (i.e. tragedy of the commons)that crop up in capitalism and other systems that only a government of some sort is well suited to address. A pure laissez faire government would be unable to address these problems, to the detriment of all. Mixed systems work best, which is certainly borne out by the data - and yes, the United States is a mixed system too, and it works pretty well.

 

[billc]

I saw a discussion of the tragedy of the commons on John Stossles show, and the tragedy occurs when there is a lack of private ownership, because no one feels solely responsible for the "commons." They pointed to public parks in New York, Indian reservations in the west and another one. When a private company came in and took over running several public parks, the parks were cleaned up and people started coming back. the criminals were chased off and the homless people were still there, I forget exactly what they said about the homeless people. I think it was that since there were more non-homless people in he park the homeless were less of a problem.

Capitalism fixes the "tragedy of the commons," it doesn't cause it.

John Stossles column on the "tragedy of the commons"

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/11/the_tragedy_of_the_commons.html

What Plymouth suffered under communalism was what economists today call the tragedy of the commons. But the problem has been known since ancient Greece. As Aristotle noted, "That which is common to the greatest number has the least care bestowed upon it."
When action is divorced from consequences, no one is happy with the ultimate outcome. If individuals can take from a common pot regardless of how much they put in it, each person has an incentive to be a free rider, to do as little as possible and take as much as possible because what one fails to take will be taken by someone else. Soon, the pot is empty and will not be refilled -- a bad situation even for the earlier takers.
What private property does -- as the Pilgrims discovered -- is connect effort to reward, creating an incentive for people to produce far more. Then, if there's a free market, people will trade their surpluses to others for the things they lack. Mutual exchange for mutual benefit makes the community richer.
Secure property rights are the key. When producers know that their future products are safe from confiscation, they will take risks and invest. But when they fear they will be deprived of the fruits of their labor, they will do as little as possible.
That's the lost lesson of Thanksgiving.

Copyright 2007, Creators Syndicate, Inc.

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[Tez3]

Plymouth suffered? good grief you haven't seen in on a Saturday night when the bootnecks and matelots are on a run ashore! It's GLORIOUS!, booze, fights, amazing craic, a wonderful place to be! Ah, Union Street...the memories.....sigh.

 

[elder999]

You do know-from your prievious thread-that Stossel has the wrong "Thanksgiving," demonstrating sloppy scholarship, and sloppy and lazy journalism? The feast we all commemorate took place in 1621, under the communal rules-the 1623 event that he and the Pilgrims referred to as "Thanksgiving" was a day of prayer where the Pilgrims gave thanks for being saved from their stupidity and incompetence by new settlers, boats and livestock.

Odd, too, that tribal villages have thrived under communalism for thousands of years. Israel was founded under communalism, and "hasn't" suffered from it.

I say the flaw isn't in the system, it's in the people.

 

[ballen0351]

I say the flaw isn't in the system, it's in the people.

And thats for all systems communism, capitalism, democracy, dictatorships. All systems could be good or bad its all in the people that run them.

 

[Tez3]

You do know-from your prievious thread-that Stossel has the wrong "Thanksgiving," demonstrating sloppy scholarship, and sloppy and lazy journalism? The feast we all commemorate took place in 1621, under the communal rules-the 1623 event that he and the Pilgrims referred to as "Thanksgiving" was a day of prayer where the Pilgrims gave thanks for being saved from their stupidity and incompetence by new settlers, boats and livestock.

Odd, too, that tribal villages have thrived under communalism for thousands of years. Israel was founded under communalism, and "hasn't" suffered from it.

I say the flaw isn't in the system, it's in the people.

I've stopped taking this seriously, as you've said we've done all this.

I vote we write a script for Blackadder as a Founding Father and Baldrick as always his loyal servant trading with the Native Americans.

 

[Blade96]

I say the flaw isn't in the system, it's in the people.

thats cause people suck. lol.

 

[aedrasteia]

Bill

maybe this can help:
full explanation www.scq.ubc.ca/tragedy-of-the-commons-explained-with-smurfs/
TRAGEDY OF THE COMMONS EXPLAINED WITH SMURFS

By Ryan Somma
​

Our Earth is filled with finite resources that we, as the Human Race, exploit for personal gain. Oil, Fish Stocks, Forests, Clean Air, and water are just a few of the resources that nobody “owns,” but everybody needs in order to survive. However, in our current system, nobody who is taking away these natural resources from the whole of us has to pay back into the natural system. Thus, there is a great incentive to consume all of the available resources before somebody else gets to them, Garrett Hardin called this nuance the “Tragedy of the Commons.”
Let’s take Smurfs as a natural resource. There are 100 smurfs living in smurf village and they do not reproduce. Every Saturday in the 1980s, entertainment producers broadcast a show documenting the life and times of Smurf Village, and made money from the advertising revenue brought in from millions of viewers watching the show. The cartoon’s producers use the smurfs in the manufacture of intellectual goods.

The intellectual use of the smurfs does nothing to detract from their smurfiness. Just as Thomas Jefferson said, “He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine.” Similarly, you can draw a smurf without taking anything away from anyone else’s use for the smurf.
Also every Saturday, Gargamel, the smurf’s antagonist, tries to catch the Smurfs so he can convert them into gold. Gargamel wants to use the smurfs in the manufacture of material goods....

see web site above - for the rest of the story

all best wishes, A