Deficiencies in WSL teachings

[WTchap]

Ok. I believe the subject of "internal" was raised as something missing from WSL VT. Difficult to answer if unable to identify what the criticism is.

I think the original point (in post #121) was in relation to a WSLVT instructor (Sifu Niels Pivato) who talked about learning in the EWTO and with WSLPBVT, and said that "everybody worked with muscular force", and that this force was "always a crucial criteria for the functionality."

He met with Sergio Iadarola and, it seems, he is now a private student with him.

So the original criticism was that WSLVT (and others, e.g. the EWTO) relied too much on force/strength.

 

[guy b.]

everybody worked with muscular force

Not working with muscular force is not possible. Internal MA also uses mucsulature to move.

 

[WTchap]

Not working with muscular force is not possible. Internal MA also uses mucsulature to move.

For sure! Every movement uses muscle.

But I think that the implication was more along the lines that what this particular person experienced from Sergio (perhaps a softer/more internal method) was able to nullify a harder method (WSLPBVT) that was, in his opinion, needing more overt muscular force for functionality.

He wrote of the seminar he attended: "What I experiecend there convinced me totally! His Wing Chun works without effort and without any force exertion."

Like you say, 'without force exertion' doesn't make sense (there's always force used), but I think that we get his general point. And that is one often associated with internal arts - they appear to function without too much effort and overt strength.

That's why I posted that a soft/internal aspect is maybe a deficiency of the WSL method.

 

[guy b.]

Like you say, 'without force exertion' doesn't make sense (there's always force used), but I think that we get his general point. And that is one often associated with internal arts - they appear to function without too much effort and overt strength.

I'm not sure that I understand his general point- it isn't clear what he is trying to say. Without force exertion is nonsensical. Without the appearance of force exertion? Sounds like a trivial objection.

 

[WTchap]

I'm not him, so I can't speak of his direct experiences. But here's mine... and so this is why I see it as a valid point, rather than a trivial objection.

You will always find someone out there who is stronger than you - and that's a huge natural advantage for the other guy. If you have a functional method (and not all soft/internal arts are trained with enough resistance and free-play to test functionality, IMO), one that allows you to negate (as much as is physically possible), superior strength, then this helps to balance out your disadvantage.

One Xingyi teacher that I know is about my size, and probably we have about the same muscle development, but the force he generates during relaxed movements is far greater than mine - like, FAR greater . A Tai Chi teacher that I know is maybe 5 inches shorter than me, considerably lighter, too, is 10+ years older and is not a strong guy, but in stand-up grappling he outclasses me almost every time - he's very good at nullifying force whilst taking/controlling my center at the same time.

I've not met Sergio (and I have a few problems with some of the things he says/conclusions he reaches), but I know three people who have met and trained with him (two attended seminars, one started regular lessons). All said the same thing - he was happy to Chi Sau with them and feel what they had, and he was happy to let them try whatever they wanted. All of them had difficulties and said he was very relaxed and hard to hit (he absorbed and redirected whilst staying very loose), and he could take their balance and structure without seeming to do too much to achieve it.

Besides, as we get older our strength and speed can diminish, so it certainly can't hurt to explore methods that require less to gain similar (or perhaps, in some cases, better) results.

 

[Juany118]

For sure! Every movement uses muscle.

But I think that the implication was more along the lines that what this particular person experienced from Sergio (perhaps a softer/more internal method) was able to nullify a harder method (WSLPBVT) that was, in his opinion, needing more overt muscular force for functionality.

He wrote of the seminar he attended: "What I experiecend there convinced me totally! His Wing Chun works without effort and without any force exertion."

Like you say, 'without force exertion' doesn't make sense (there's always force used), but I think that we get his general point. And that is one often associated with internal arts - they appear to function without too much effort and overt strength.

That's why I posted that a soft/internal aspect is maybe a deficiency of the WSL method.

I'm am thinking he means muscular or force exertion like this...

Picture needing to flip a 200 lbs block on its side. Now you can go up, pit your fingers under one edge and lift OR you can get a long rod or staff, a log or such to be a fulcrum and use mechanical advantage and thus use far less personal exertion .

That to me is just WC period though. The structure of your body having each attack, or defense not founded in just the limb, or even that limb and torso but straight to the ground. The angle of a tan-sau or bong-sau not only providing for deflection vs block but also making a stronger structure for the limb itself than a straight limb or one at 90 degree angles etc. The nature of the art, if performed properly, requires less raw muscle use than some other because it essentially uses principles of mechanical advantage and leverage for many of the applications.

 

[guy b.]

One Xingyi teacher that I know is about my size, and probably we have about the same muscle development, but the force he generates during relaxed movements is far greater than mine - like, FAR greater . A Tai Chi teacher that I know is maybe 5 inches shorter than me, considerably lighter, too, is 10+ years older and is not a strong guy, but in stand-up grappling he outclasses me almost every time - he's very good at nullifying force whilst taking/controlling my center at the same time.

And how do you think they do this, is it magic?

Do you think that you would have a similar experience with (say) Philipp Bayer? Or do you think he would be muscling and forcing techniques against you?

 

[SaulGoodman]

And how do you think they do this, is it magic?

Do you think that you would have a similar experience with (say) Philipp Bayer? Or do you think he would be muscling and forcing techniques against you?

Are you completely obtuse purposely or do you simply like repeating the same questions over and over and over again? It's not "magic" what wtchap was explaining, stop trying to demean people's explanations. As you already know, he's talking about a softer more internal approach rather than the stiff, rounded shouldered Bayer approach.
Maybe you should spend a little more time reading people's replies to your typically loaded questions and then perhaps you wouldn't come across as so anally retentive...

 

[guy b.]

Are you completely obtuse purposely or do you simply like repeating the same questions over and over and over again? It's not "magic" what wtchap was explaining, stop trying to demean people's explanations. As you already know, he's talking about a softer more internal approach rather than the stiff, rounded shouldered Bayer approach.
Maybe you should spend a little more time reading people's replies to your typically loaded questions and then perhaps you wouldn't come across as so anally retentive...

What is a "softer more internal approach"? What does it consist of?

 

[Marnetmar]

This is a different wc than I've experienced. Totally Hard with a lot of wide open telegraphed movements.
Not a fan if this is representative of everything he does.

I think it's an example of "something in our current training doesn't work, so we're going to do it harder to try and make it work instead of trying something different".

 

[WTchap]

And how do you think they do this, is it magic?

Yes, mate... it's magic. [finally, forum members has discovered language that you can actually understand]

Do you think that you would have a similar experience with (say) Philipp Bayer? Or do you think he would be muscling and forcing techniques against you?

Dependent on whether we've taken your Philipp Bayer Love Potion beforehand? Should I or others only use your Muggle methods? Did you not read chapter 6 of How to Play with Bayer Dumbledore and Other Beastly Monsters?

What is a "softer more internal approach"? What does it consist of?

Are you telling us that your Yiquan instructor isn't from Hogwarts???? Has he/she taught you nothing?

Call the Daily Prophet and ask them.

 

[LFJ]

A deficiency means an inadequacy or flaw.

Not containing Qi talk or energy tricks is not an inadequacy or flaw. The system functions perfectly fine as it is meant to without that kind of thing.

If someone wants to learn that stuff, that's their personal preference, not a system flaw.

VT doesn't contain ground fighting either. But I don't think that could qualify as a deficiency. VT is not intended to be used on the ground, nor is it designed to bounce people away with imperceptible movement and mystical energies.

What I have observed in some other lineages are apparent violations of universally recognized principles. That's what I would call a deficiency.

This guy following Sergio wants to learn unrelated energy tricks he didn't find in VT. That's not a system flaw.

 

[LFJ]

Combining Tai Chi and Wing Chun. The result? Not knowing either.

 

[wckf92]

Combining Tai Chi and Wing Chun. The result? Not knowing either.

Impressive. I wish I knew how to get my training partners to freeze like that. Must be the combo of Tai Chi/WT/and perhaps even some HS pixie dust thrown in for good measure?

 

[guy b.]

Yes it's magic.

If you aren't able to identify what VT is lacking in physical terms, then yes it does sound like something that needs to be believed before it can be seen.

One Xingyi teacher that I know is about my size, and probably we have about the same muscle development, but the force he generates during relaxed movements is far greater than mine - like, FAR greater . A Tai Chi teacher that I know is maybe 5 inches shorter than me, considerably lighter, too, is 10+ years older and is not a strong guy, but in stand-up grappling he outclasses me almost every time - he's very good at nullifying force whilst taking/controlling my center at the same time.

People that are better than you are better than you and feel very strong- this is not uncommon. It doesn't require a new phenomenon in order to be explained.

Until there is some physical explantion of what "internal" means, then there isn't anything concrete to reply to in this criticism.

 

[WTchap]

A deficiency means an inadequacy or flaw.

@guy b. started the thread saying, "Post your view please. No offence will be taken. I welcome the opportunity to learn from other perspectives."

What I posted is what Sifu Niels Pivato obviously feels is a flaw. His comment states that in his previous WSLVT/WT experience, he found that in order for people to make it functional, strength was required. For him, that is obviously an inadequacy, as a softer approach, in his opinion, is lacking.

If he was willing to become a student of Sergio, having previously had physical training directly with Philipp Bayer, this would indicated that his physical training with Sergio exposed a deficiency in his VT. If WSLPBVT works, and what Sergio does is just tricks, wouldn't it be Sergio's method that was exposed?

I don't expect you (@LFJ and @guy b.) to agree with him - but Guy did ask for perspectives. Sifu Niels Pivato has a fair bit of experience, and he offered a perspective.

Not containing Qi talk or energy tricks is not an inadequacy or flaw.

I agree that Qi talk is not needed. Energy tricks... well, I don't see it as a trick. I'm guessing the same is true for Sifu Niels Pivato.

VT is not intended to be used on the ground, nor is it designed to bounce people away with imperceptible movement and mystical energies.

How do you bounce someone away with mystical energies? You can't. What is happening is physical. The process is physical, and is trained in a physical way.

If you aren't able to identify what VT is lacking in physical terms, then yes it does sound like something that needs to be believed before it can be seen.

As I said above, it is a physical process. Do you think Tai Chi's Peng is not physical? Is what you train in Yiquan (your post training and Fa Li training, for example), not physical?

People that are better than you are better than you and feel very strong- this is not uncommon. It doesn't require a new phenomenon in order to be explained.

This isn't exactly what I meant. Both of the people I mentioned feel very relaxed. I am stronger than the Tai Chi teacher, for example, but he still has the upper-hand - he is better but doesn't feel stronger than me. He is more connected, for sure.

Until there is some physical explantion of what "internal" means, then there isn't anything concrete to reply to in this criticism.

Earlier in the thread you asked about internal work, and I said that creating connections in the body was a part of this (and just one part).

I said: "Connections* If I talk about connections and you don't know what I mean, I need to... what... outline every aspect of Fascia and musculature in the body? Explain how it ties back to core muscle groups? Explain the role of breathing and how it impacts on the above? Explain what happens when muscle is twisted around bone? Explain power lines in the body? Explain the function of tendons - and then should I explain the nature of elasticity?"

Do you really not see Fascia and musculature as physical? Are core muscles groups not physical? What about breathing - it has no physical effect? Twisting muscle - not a physical act, with a physical result? Tendons - not something physical in your body? Tying together all of these things, linking them, is, what... mystical nonsense?

 

[SaulGoodman]

What is a "softer more internal approach"? What does it consist of?

You're now taking the p$ss, right?

 

[guy b.]

His comment states that in his previous WSLVT/WT experience, he found that in order for people to make it functional, strength was required. For him, that is obviously an inadequacy, as a softer approach, in his opinion, is lacking.

Strength is required for any movement, including internal MA movement. All movement requires muscles to exert forces on the skeleton. A "softer approach", whatever that might mean, is no different.

If he was willing to become a student of Sergio, having previously had physical training directly with Philipp Bayer, this would indicated that his physical training with Sergio exposed a deficiency in his VT

Maybe he just likes to believe in fairy tales? Without more information I have no way of evaluating his claims because it is difficult to tell what exactly he is claiming.

As I said above, it is a physical process. Do you think Tai Chi's Peng is not physical? Is what you train in Yiquan (your post training and Fa Li training, for example), not physical?

I know what I train in Yiquan. But nobody has given any indication of what this person thinks Sergio's system offers that is lacking in VT. If it is something physical then describe what it is in simple physical terms showing how it is different to movement in VT.

he is better but doesn't feel stronger than me. He is more connected, for sure

I don't know what this means

I said: "Connections* If I talk about connections and you don't know what I mean, I need to... what... outline every aspect of Fascia and musculature in the body? Explain how it ties back to core muscle groups? Explain the role of breathing and how it impacts on the above? Explain what happens when muscle is twisted around bone? Explain power lines in the body? Explain the function of tendons - and then should I explain the nature of elasticity?"

I believe you didn't go on to explain your understanding of any of these things. Please do.

Do you really not see Fascia and musculature as physical? Are core muscles groups not physical? What about breathing - it has no physical effect? Twisting muscle - not a physical act, with a physical result? Tendons - not something physical in your body? Tying together all of these things, linking them, is, what... mystical nonsense?

Everyone has fascia, musculature, tendons and so on which allow the body to move in a connected rathr than disjointed way, barring physical impediment. Everyone breathes and everyone coordinates breath with physical effort naturally. I'm not seeing what is special about metion of these mundane things.

 

[guy b.]

You're now taking the p$ss, right?

Not at all, please describe in simple physical terms.

 

[geezer]

A deficiency means an inadequacy or flaw. Not containing Qi talk or energy tricks is not an inadequacy or flaw. The system functions perfectly fine as it is meant to without that kind of thing. If someone wants to learn that stuff, that's their personal preference, not a system flaw.

--Fair enough.

...VT doesn't contain ground fighting either. But I don't think that could qualify as a deficiency. VT is not intended to be used on the ground...

--I would disagree. Although VT/WC doesn't need ground fighting to be effective, it definitely needs reliable strategies to both defend against a. grapplers who would take you to the ground, and b. to escape and recover from the ground to your standup game if the unexpected occurs. Most lineages of VT/WC do not adequately address both these areas, leaving practitioners vulnerable to a good grappling attack. In my view, that is a deficiency that is best acknowledged and dealt with.

...What I have observed in some other lineages are apparent violations of universally recognized principles. That's what I would call a deficiency.

--Hmmm. Not disagreeing mind you, but if those lineages violate these principles, how can they be universally recognized?