Deficiencies in WSL teachings

[WTchap]

Guy, that's bad form on a forum meant for dialogue and exchange, IMO. You asked questions, I gave you answers. I'm happy to answer more for you, but first a little give and take.

If you don't want to answer my questions (which I asked so that I can better understand how you see things in this discussion), then it's kinda silly for you to expect me to keep answering all of yours.

I hope that you're not trolling here.

 

[guy b.]

Guy, that's bad form on a forum meant for dialogue and exchange, IMO. You asked questions, I gave you answers. I'm happy to answer more for you, but first a little give and take.

If you don't want to answer my questions (which I asked so that I can better understand how you see things in this discussion), then it's kinda silly for you to expect me to keep answering all of yours.

I hope that you're not trolling here.

You questions are a more specific reformulation of my questions. If I answer those then you will have my answer to my own previous questions, which renders my own questions null and void.

From your answers to my questions I am none the wiser about the purpose of your practice, and how you achieve it. Which is why I asked again.

I'm not trolling, just not a fan of skirting around the issue. Most forum discussion on internal MA never actually gets to the point at all, because everyone is either unsure of what it is, or unwilling to share it with others.

 

[WTchap]

@guy b. What I'm having trouble getting my head around, is the idea that you train Yiquan but that you are "none the wiser" from my explanations regarding the training methods and their purpose. It is found, after all, in all internal arts.

Which is why it sounds like you're trolling.

What I've written isn't 'skirting around the issue', but if you want a very simplified answer, you can have one - but it won't be a comprehensive answer, and that itself means it becomes open to interpretation (to the point where it becomes so generic it loses meaningful anything. Why? Because the devil is in the details)

What's the purpose of Xingyi's body work?
To unify the body

How do you do this?
By creating connections* inside the body

What effect does that have?
Utilising the connections* allows you to generate more power in terms of efficient output; and allows you to handle, more efficiently, power experienced as input.

The problem with the above three points is this:
What's a Ferrari? A vehicle with four wheels
What's a GoCart? A vehicle with four wheels
What's a Monster Truck? A vehicle with four wheels

Each answer is correct, but leads to:
Hey, I love your new truck. It's not a truck, it's a Ferrari!
(or, teacher says we unify the body in XYZ Martial Art, therefore what we do must be internal)

So a simple explanation regarding Xingyi training tells you something, but if you want to understand more, take a look at the brief outlines I gave earlier (posts #157, #167 and #171). Brief, because if you train an internal art, then "winding" and "pairing", for example, will make sense to you - you shouldn't be "none the wiser." The same with the use of "intent and visualisation." The same with "connections* in the body."

If, for whatever reason, you train Yiquan and really, genuinely, don't know what I'm talking about, then the only way for you to understand me is if I go into ever-greater detail.

I'd rather not write a training manual, you know?

It makes me wonder what you're training in your Yiquan standing work. It makes me wonder why you say have all the things I've mentioned, but that you don't understand what I'm talking about. It's like saying, "I'm a good swimmer, but yeah... I've never actually been in the water."



So why not talk a little about what you do. Let's see if there's some common ground. Give a little noise so that others can gauge your signal.

-----------------
Connections*

If I talk about connections and you don't know what I mean, I need to... what... outline every aspect of Fascia and musculature in the body? Explain how it ties back to core muscle groups? Explain the role of breathing and how it impacts on the above? Explain what happens when muscle is twisted around bone? Explain power lines in the body? Explain the function of tendons - and then should I explain the nature of elasticity?

And then, after I've done all of that... what.... I should also give you an example of usage for each of the above points?

 

[KPM]

Guy, that's bad form on a forum meant for dialogue and exchange, IMO. You asked questions, I gave you answers. I'm happy to answer more for you, but first a little give and take.

If you don't want to answer my questions (which I asked so that I can better understand how you see things in this discussion), then it's kinda silly for you to expect me to keep answering all of yours.

I hope that you're not trolling here.

You are discovering what many of us here have already figured out. Guy just likes to argue. He will ask pointed questions and expect in-depth answers and explanations, but when questioned himself will only give short and superficial replies. Just a "heads up" so you don't waste too much of your time.

 

[guy b.]

@guy b. What I'm having trouble getting my head around, is the idea that you train Yiquan but that you are "none the wiser" from my explanations regarding the training methods and their purpose. It is found, after all, in all internal arts.

Which is why it sounds like you're trolling

I am not trolling.Training methods are ubiquitous, the purpose (and hence the understanding and utility of the training) can vary.

What I've written isn't 'skirting around the issue', but if you want a very simplified answer, you can have one - but it won't be a comprehensive answer, and that itself means it becomes open to interpretation (to the point where it becomes so generic it loses meaningful anything. Why? Because the devil is in the details)

You can explan the basic purpose in detail in one or two sentences.

(or, teacher says we unify the body in XYZ Martial Art, therefore what we do must be internal)

Well exactly, this is why the purpose is of the training is important. "Unify the body" or "create connections" is needlessly opaque and non-physical. You could say something nearly as concise but much more information dense and useful.

if you train an internal art, then "winding" and "pairing", for example, will make sense to you - you shouldn't be "none the wiser." The same with the use of "intent and visualisation." The same with "connections* in the body."

There is no indication of why these things are done, how they are done, or progression. Without that, it isn't really conveying any info beyond what would appear on any tai chi school website. I am happy with my own translation to normal language of these terms, but we aren't really discussing anything in using them. They are just part of the fluff and nothing that surrounds internal training.

If, for whatever reason, you train Yiquan and really, genuinely, don't know what I'm talking about, then the only way for you to understand me is if I go into ever-greater detail.

I tend to disagree. Rather than saying something like create connections, say which connections and talk about why and how to create. Don't go more detailed with language that is opaque, instead simplify and clarify.

I'd rather not write a training manual, you know

You really don't need to. A couple of sentences should suffice. My own understanding of it is not that complex. It is the whole focus of Yiquan, and it is simple in the extreme.

It's like saying, "I'm a good swimmer, but yeah... I've never actually been in the water.

Anyone can learn to swim and there is nothing particularly difficult about it- you just need to persevere. Complicated description is not required.

If I talk about connections and you don't know what I mean, I need to... what... outline every aspect of Fascia and musculature in the body?

No, you just need to mention the basic idea, which can probably be done in fewer than 10 words.

Explain how it ties back to core muscle groups? Explain the role of breathing and how it impacts on the above? Explain what happens when muscle is twisted around bone? Explain power lines in the body? Explain the function of tendons - and then should I explain the nature of elasticity

None of this required.

And then, after I've done all of that... what.... I should also give you an example of usage for each of the above points?

Not required

 

[guy b.]

You are discovering what many of us here have already figured out. Guy just likes to argue. He will ask pointed questions and expect in-depth answers and explanations, but when questioned himself will only give short and superficial replies. Just a "heads up" so you don't waste too much of your time.

Please do not listen to KPM- he bears me a personal grudge. Ironically I have typed many pages of explanation for him which he conveniently forgets.

 

[WTchap]

You are discovering what many of us here have already figured out. Guy just likes to argue. He will ask pointed questions and expect in-depth answers and explanations, but when questioned himself will only give short and superficial replies. Just a "heads up" so you don't waste too much of your time.

Thanks, KPM. Yes, I was beginning to form this picture

 

[WTchap]

@guy b.

"You can explan the basic purpose in detail in one or two sentences."

I did.

"'Unify the body' or 'create connections' is needlessly opaque and non-physical. You could say something nearly as concise but much more information dense and useful."

Creating 'connections' is not non-physical, it is all physical. You wanted simple, so I gave it. If you want more detail, I have to write much more - and frankly, when I write more you don't understand (even though you say you understand, and say you have it/do it, too).

Maybe you should respond by telling us your understanding, so it doesn't look like you're just digging for info because you don't have it. I'd love for that to be wrong - I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts on what you do. Each day I put in 45-60 minutes of internal body development work, so believe me... nothing would please me more than hearing of someone else's experience.

"There is no indication of why these things are done, how they are done, or progression."

Sure there was. But again, you're asking me to force-feed you data. Data you should already have, IMO.

Like I said, from just 4 hours or so with a Yiquan instructor I could see a correlation.

When I give it to you in a simple way, you want more. Then you say it can be summed up in just 10 words, LOL. There are books dedicated to this material. Again, first demonstrate your understanding of something, then we can progress and discuss.

"They are just part of the fluff and nothing that surrounds internal training."



"Rather than saying something like create connections, say which connections and talk about why and how to create. Don't go more detailed with language that is opaque, instead simplify and clarify."

So, you want me to say "which connections" and talk about "how" and "why" (which is in itself pretty detailed), but I should... simplify for you.

"A couple of sentences should suffice."

Good Lord!

"My own understanding of it is not that complex. It is the whole focus of Yiquan, and it is simple in the extreme."

Again, first it would be useful for you to actually demonstrate your own understanding of it.

So far all you've done is ask a barrage of questions, and claimed you already have an understanding - but your questions indicate that you don't have an understanding of this (body work, process, benefits, etc.)

I'm happy to discuss all of this with you, but until you actually start talking and sharing, I think I'll just assume that you're looking for an argument, as @KPM has said. You've not shown anything to dispel this.

 

[WTchap]

Hang on... am I the butt of a huge joke, and you're actually Hendrik Santo

 

[guy b.]

@guy b.

"You can explan the basic purpose in detail in one or two sentences."

I did.

"'Unify the body' or 'create connections' is needlessly opaque and non-physical. You could say something nearly as concise but much more information dense and useful."

Creating 'connections' is not non-physical, it is all physical. You wanted simple, so I gave it. If you want more detail, I have to write much more - and frankly, when I write more you don't understand (even though you say you understand, and say you have it/do it, too).

Maybe you should respond by telling us your understanding, so it doesn't look like you're just digging for info because you don't have it. I'd love for that to be wrong - I'd enjoy hearing your thoughts on what you do. Each day I put in 45-60 minutes of internal body development work, so believe me... nothing would please me more than hearing of someone else's experience.

"There is no indication of why these things are done, how they are done, or progression."

Sure there was. But again, you're asking me to force-feed you data. Data you should already have, IMO.

Like I said, from just 4 hours or so with a Yiquan instructor I could see a correlation.

When I give it to you in a simple way, you want more. Then you say it can be summed up in just 10 words, LOL. There are books dedicated to this material. Again, first demonstrate your understanding of something, then we can progress and discuss.

"They are just part of the fluff and nothing that surrounds internal training."



"Rather than saying something like create connections, say which connections and talk about why and how to create. Don't go more detailed with language that is opaque, instead simplify and clarify."

So, you want me to say "which connections" and talk about "how" and "why" (which is in itself pretty detailed), but I should... simplify for you.

"A couple of sentences should suffice."

Good Lord!

"My own understanding of it is not that complex. It is the whole focus of Yiquan, and it is simple in the extreme."

Again, first it would be useful for you to actually demonstrate your own understanding of it.

So far all you've done is ask a barrage of questions, and claimed you already have an understanding - but your questions indicate that you don't have an understanding of this (body work, process, benefits, etc.)

I'm happy to discuss all of this with you, but until you actually start talking and sharing, I think I'll just assume that you're looking for an argument, as @KPM has said. You've not shown anything to dispel this.

Ok

 

[guy b.]

Hang on... am I the butt of a huge joke, and you're actually Hendrik Santo

All these aliases eh? Difficult to know who you are talking to sometimes.

 

[geezer]

Hang on... am I the butt of a huge joke, and you're actually Hendrik Santo

In that case, HS must have been taking ESL classes. I commend him on his remarkable progress!

 

[KPM]

Ok

Brilliant response to WTChap's various points and questions in his last post. Your response is full depth and in-sight and "pages of explanation" that has cleared up many misunderstandings in this current discussion!

 

[WTchap]

Brilliant response to WTChap's various points and questions in his last post. Your response is full depth and in-sight and "pages of explanation" that has cleared up many misunderstandings in this current discussion!

Well, I have say that Guy is the first internal arts practitioner I've talked to who didn't want to talk about their training. Probably that tells us something. I regret taking the time, to be honest

 

[guy b.]

Well, I have say that Guy is the first internal arts practitioner I've talked to who didn't want to talk about their training. Probably that tells us something. I regret taking the time, to be honest

I would like to talk but was unable to determine what you mean due to unclear language. I don't want to force you if you don't want to tell me; it is up to you. That is why I stopped asking and accepted your last post as a statement. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[Nobody Important]

I would like to talk but was unable to determine what you mean due to unclear language. I don't want to force you if you don't want to tell me; it is up to you. That is why I stopped asking and accepted your last post as a statement. Thanks for taking the time.

Perhaps it would help if you could illustrate by explaining an example in language you understand. This way others could see where you are coming from. Maybe write about the internal connection of Yiquan as you understand it. Then comparisons could be made without confusion. Just a suggestion.

 

[Juany118]

Well, I have say that Guy is the first internal arts practitioner I've talked to who didn't want to talk about their training. Probably that tells us something. I regret taking the time, to be honest

Just quoting this WTchap as you mentioned "talking about training.". I was wracking my brain trying to remember how in my WC class they speak about internal principles rather than how mechanically it mirrors said principles and I remembered finally. It took me awhile though because it was told to me the first time I learned Sil Mum Tao.

There the Sifu says, when doing the Wu Sau/Fook Sau set which incidentally we do noticeably slower than the rest,

"this section with the Tan Sau it's training as is done in some of the internal arts. The tip of the things stays on the roof of your mouth, and you always visualize the energy going forward and out through the arms. The internal path way is that you inhale, up over the head, down around the back into the dantien, you pause and the energy comes back up the front and out. You do this repeatedly as you are going through this section of he form."

Just took me a bit because it had been a while since I heard the explanation. There are a few other things in principle as I have said but this is one time I can remember where it is explicitly stated.

 

[guy b.]

Perhaps it would help if you could illustrate by explaining an example in language you understand. This way others could see where you are coming from. Maybe write about the internal connection of Yiquan as you understand it. Then comparisons could be made without confusion. Just a suggestion.

Yiquan does one thing. It is a simple thing. Either you are talking about it, or not. No languange difficulty because no complexity. I have no desire to talk about it if you don't want to.

 

[Nobody Important]

Yiquan does one thing. It is a simple thing. Either you are talking about it, or not. No languange difficulty because no complexity. I have no desire to talk about it if you don't want to.

I wasn't part of the discussion, simply trying to mediate. I should have butted out. I have no interest in discussing the topic of Yiquan.

 

[guy b.]

I wasn't part of the discussion, simply trying to mediate. I should have butted out. I have no interest in discussing the topic of Yiquan.

Ok

I believe the subject of "internal" was raised as something missing from WSL VT. Difficult to answer if unable to identify what the criticism is.