Deficiencies in WSL teachings

[Wing Chun Auckland]

IMO, the above definition covers lower dantien, middle dantien and also the mingmen point. Earlier in the thread I was mentioning how the internal arts use 'pairing' (yin-yang, heaven-earth, and this is really something connected to dantien work. So to use one of my favourite quotes (again ) Daito Ryu/Aikido's Ueshiba referred to ‘Heaven and Earth’ and the ‘floating bridge', and said, “The working of the attraction point, between In and Yo (Yin and Yang), is the birthplace of all techniques.”

Tenchijin, right? What internal art do you study?

 

[Juany118]

"Sometimes WSLVT is called "hard" because it is an imposing attack method. But it can be called "soft" or "internal" if you are defining those as using principles of leverage, force vectors, etc."

Principles of leverage, force vectors, etc., are all good (many/most arts use them) - and the internal arts use them too; but for me at least, they aren't what make the internal arts "internal."

If any here know the person from WSLPBVT who attended Sergio's seminar, it would good to hear more from him about his impressions/experience.

The thing is though, in my experience (admittedly my only internal experience is Aikido and a little Tai Chi) the difference is ultimately philosophical and not in how the body does what it does.

When describing the purpose of developing Chi, when you strip away the philosophy, you are talking about simply understanding where your feet, center and shoulders/elbows are, in relation to each other, in 3 dimensional space so as to more effectively deliver or deflect/absorb incoming force. Example, Tai Chi Chuan pushing. Your feet, center and upper body need to be aligned properly, in this way you aren't simply using the arms or the arms and waist/lower back. Instead you are pushing starting at that back foot (simplified description) and that force meets with the force generated by your center which hen meets with the force generated by your upper body. WC-WC, same thing, your elbow may be the "trigger" of the gun for your punch but your structure is vital, it starts with that back leg, goes to the center, to the upper body, all of that following the elbow as the punch launches from the center line, not off to the side, for more energy. The same works in reverse, the energy of an attack that I did not deflect gets channeled through my body down to the ground if I have proper structure. If my structure is off then the energy can stop at my waist, causing me to stop forward momentum or even stagger back.

Also, while internal art may tend to be more circular than linear when utilizing these skills, we tend to come back to a philosophical reason as to why. You can have an art that is linear and that is thus assumed to be external not because the physics of how they operate are different but because of philosophy and superficial appearance. I have a Chen-Style Tai Chi Chuan teacher in my area who I love to study with one day. I sat in on a class one day and he said "remember, Chi is not magic, it's simply understanding physics." I asked him about it later and he said that the things you are doing to focus your Chi are very much part of Taoist religious philosophy but it also acts as a teaching tool to allow you to better understand your own body's mechanics and thus be able to move properly. He personally loves the philosophical aspect but he believes, and he may be wrong or course, that a person could teach Chen Style simply via demonstrating the moves and scanning it like a physics class.

 

[WTchap]

@guy b

“After the start of the process, what do you use to move besides your muscles?”

I know it will sound like splitting hairs, but I wouldn’t frame it as using something else to move, but more that you’re tying in everything else with the movements. Or, think of it like the dantien work as being the engine, fueling other things that happen. It’s a prime mover (no pun intended).


@Wing Chun Auckland

“Tenchijin, right?”

Yes, though this word always looks wrong to me – like we’re directly mixing Japanese and Chinese. But yes, heaven and earth force.

“What internal art do you study?”

Xingyi, and I also study some internal training methods from someone with a background in Xingyi, Bagua, Tai Chi and Daito Ryu. I meet with Wing Tsun friends as often as I can, and still like to spar a little with them. So no longer actively studying Wing Tsun (which I first started in 1999).

@Juany118

“When describing the purpose of developing Chi, when you strip away the philosophy, you are talking about simply understanding where your feet, center and shoulders/elbows are, in relation to each other, in 3 dimensional space so as to more effectively deliver or deflect/absorb incoming force.”

Well, I never describe Chi in Chinese martial arts . I think it's all too vague, and something not supported by any research. I much prefer a "this is how something works, this is how you train it, this is how you use it" approach. I'm simple like that.

Regarding positioning, yes, it’s important, but I think there is much more to this in terms of delivering force/dealing with force. To use your Tai Chi example, when we talk about the legs, it’s so much about the pushing from the rear leg (everyone, in any art, uses the legs in this way to drive – it’s how the legs work ) but more about how the legs are connected to the center and how they work in terms of “two complimentary sides, oppositely paired in their function.” In your Tai Chi training, I’m sure you learned about shifting and relaxing a part of the leg to stretch the muscle into a movement. It is kind of like that.

“The same works in reverse, the energy of an attack that I did not deflect gets channeled through my body down to the ground if I have proper structure. If my structure is off then the energy can stop at my waist, causing me to stop forward momentum or even stagger back.”

This makes sense, but my feeling is that it is true of ALL arts.

“Also, while internal art may tend to be more circular than linear when utilizing these skills, we tend to come back to a philosophical reason as to why. You can have an art that is linear and that is thus assumed to be external not because the physics of how they operate are different but because of philosophy and superficial appearance.”

In my experience, these arts are linear and circular together. Not really more of one than another. It’s a bit like Tai Chi teachers encouraging Song, and then people misunderstand and become too relaxed. You need to use relaxation and tension – otherwise you’re just a ragdoll.


But to be honest, we probably just see things a bit differently. For me, the internal arts and Wing Chun are two very different beasts. If others see it differently, well... it makes for interesting discussion.

 

[Juany118]

@guy b



“The same works in reverse, the energy of an attack that I did not deflect gets channeled through my body down to the ground if I have proper structure. If my structure is off then the energy can stop at my waist, causing me to stop forward momentum or even stagger back.”

This makes sense, but my feeling is that it is true of ALL arts.

“Also, while internal art may tend to be more circular than linear when utilizing these skills, we tend to come back to a philosophical reason as to why. You can have an art that is linear and that is thus assumed to be external not because the physics of how they operate are different but because of philosophy and superficial appearance.”

In my experience, these arts are linear and circular together. Not really more of one than another. It’s a bit like Tai Chi teachers encouraging Song, and then people misunderstand and become too relaxed. You need to use relaxation and tension – otherwise you’re just a ragdoll.


But to be honest, we probably just see things a bit differently. For me, the internal arts and Wing Chun are two very different beasts. If others see it differently, well... it makes for interesting discussion.

On the last point, like I said I will never say that the WC I study is an internal art by definition, there are certainly some maneuvers that are definitely external, it is a hybrid mixing internal with external.

As for the bit regarding proper structure, from my study of Aikido and Ryushinkan, its very different. Aikido is very much about your own movement as well, so you dissipate the remaining incoming energy by "going with the flow" or moving away from your attacker (unlike WC which is designed to almost always move towards your attacker, even if it is to move on the diagonal to get to his blind side.) You still do not meet force with force but it's a different method.

Ryuskinkan was a very much in the style of other forms of "traditional" Karate-Do, uses blocks more than deflections and often using wider "strong roots" stances so that you absorb the impact, vs allowing the energy to pass through you (for lack of a better term). You were meeting force with force however your goal was to have a foundation strong and stable enough in defense to resist. I would call this a prototypical external martial art.

These arts, and Kali are the limits however of martial art experience (I don't count my high school and college Olympic Fencing) so mileage may vary

 

[Juany118]

@guy b

So to use one of my favourite quotes (again ) Daito Ryu/Aikido's Ueshiba referred to ‘Heaven and Earth’ and the ‘floating bridge', and said, “The working of the attraction point, between In and Yo (Yin and Yang), is the birthplace of all techniques.”

One of favorites as well, I actually love most of his quotes (I still study Zen, just not Aikido because I no longer have one that teaches with a "combative philosophy", perhaps after I no longer see the Martial Arts as a "work tool" when I retire I will return to it.) This is my favorite regarding Combative arts because it indicates that it is not just the Art you study that wins the day..

"It is necessary to develop a strategy that utilizes all the physical conditions and elements that are directly at hand. The best strategy relies upon an unlimited set of responses."

 

[guy b.]

I know it will sound like splitting hairs, but I wouldn’t frame it as using something else to move, but more that you’re tying in everything else with the movements.

So you are using muscles to move in a particular way. Ok

Your descriptions of dantien sounds a bit more like tai chi than hsing yi to me

What is the physical purpose of focus on the dantien, of visualising it as a ball, and so on?

 

[WTchap]

"So you are using muscles to move in a particular way. Ok"

Of course. Can't move, in any way, using any method, without them.

"Your descriptions of dantien sounds a bit more like tai chi than hsing yi to me"

I learned them via Xingyi. But while Bagua, Tai Chi and Xingyi are distinct arts, often with their own approach to strategy, etc., what's "inside" them is fundamentally the same (or at least, very, very similar). The biggest difference, IMO, is how they choose to use them.

"What is the physical purpose of focus on the dantien, of visualising it as a ball, and so on?"

I'd say that the physical purpose (regarding the dantien focus) is to get "more bang for your buck." It can aid in greater power development, and help to get the power out. Using it can help in other ways too, how you manage incoming force, for example. I have a friend who trains this and also competes in BJJ - people are often surprised at how hard it is to move him, even though he's remaining agile and mobile, and at how he can take their balance while feeling very relaxed.

In terms of "visualising it as a ball", the simplest reason is that it's a good learning tool. If a teacher explains a physical movement, puts your hand on his stomach, side, lower back, and you feel the movements - and then he tells you to mimic the movements while "engaging the Psoas Major, the transverse abdomens and the lower rectus abdominus"... well...

... most of us won't know what these are and where they are, and even if we learn about them, it will be brain-overload to try and focus on all of this at the same time (at least for someone like me)

We, people in general, often work better when we have something we can visualise. Visualising all of this as a ball, makes sense to our brains. And, at times, it feels like a ball moving, even if this isn't anatomically what is happening. It's a bit like the "spine wave" in Xingyi... technically, it's not exactly a wave, even though it feels like one. So it's a good visualisation for training.

Most people have seen the Bagua teacup exercise (where by keeping the palm up, you're training mobility in the shoulder while stretching parts of the arm and, at the same time keeping a smooth, open, loosening movement). It's not natural to hold the palm like this, you want to start turning it, but by visualising holding a cup and not spilling the tea, you're helping the body to learn faster.

Plus, visualisation is linked to the "intent" work, so you're adding in another component.

 

[guy b.]

In terms of "visualising it as a ball", the simplest reason is that it's a good learning tool

Sounds different to the Hsing Yi derived system I do. What is the teaching progression?

 

[WTchap]

Sounds different to the Hsing Yi derived system I do. What is the teaching progression?

Yes, Yiquan is a relatively new variant. I quite like what I've seen of it, but it's very much a stripped down version of Xingyi. Some people like it for that, and some feel it lacks Xingyi's depth. For me, Xingyi is more my flavour.

The Xingyi I learn is quite a large system (standing exercises and other jibengong, five elements, 12 animals, various weapons, various degrees of sparring, etc.)

What part of the progression do you mean?

 

[guy b.]

Yes, Yiquan is a relatively new variant. I quite like what I've seen of it, but it's very much a stripped down version of Xingyi. Some people like it for that, and some feel it lacks Xingyi's depth. For me, Xingyi is more my flavour.

The Xingyi I learn is quite a large system (standing exercises and other jibengong, five elements, 12 animals, various weapons, various degrees of sparring, etc.)

What part of the progression do you mean?

I mean specifically to develop "internal stength/qi" or whatever you like to call it. Is there a specific targetted way of achieving it? If so then this will tell you exactly what it is you are developing in physical terms.

Tai chi attempts to develop the same thing as Yiquan but in a different way. Tai chi method I think pretty low %. I believed that Hsing Yi the same as Yiquan, but maybe not.

Yiquan is definitely stripped down. It is actually quite minimalist, which is what I like about it. It is good in that it teaches the development of "internal" very rapidly and in a targeted way without diversions, confusions, contradictions, and it works. I am not so much of a fan of the applied side of Yiquan- possibly an improvement on Hsing Yi but nothing special. But for developing "internal" it is I think the best available and is a great add on system, e.g. many kyokushin add Yiquan

 

[WTchap]

@guy b. Dude, you have a way of asking short, quickly typed questions that require longish answers.

“I mean specifically to develop "internal stength/qi" or whatever you like to call it.”

Yes, let’s call it “internal strength,” as “Qi” just confuses everything and is so open to weird interpretations, we’ll end up talking in circles.

“Is there a specific targetted way of achieving it?”

Yes

“If so then this will tell you exactly what it is you are developing in physical terms.”

In brief…

The method:

(each of the things listed below have various training practices/subsets, and we work them with drills, solo work, sometimes partner work, ways of testing, etc.)

Learn to set up the frame; learn how to loosen/soften the body; learn how to align, learn how to pull and connect; learn how to wind and spiral; learn how to pair; learn how to integrate.

Inside of all of that you find the stuff and training that people in the internal arts usually reference: dantien and mingmen, breathing, intent, six harmonies, cross-body, kwa, full body power, contract and expand, open and close...

....and so on.

And it works in a cycle, too. As you progress you’re constantly returning to earlier material to refine it, further develop it, better integrate it, etc. Hence, why you never stop “basic” training like Santi, the five element fists, etc.


What you develop (in physical terms):

Releasing/getting rid of pre-existing problems (tension, mobility issues, etc.); a higher yield on alignment (because it now becomes more ingrained) that allows force/power to transmit nicely; building/developing the right/“correct” musculature, connective tissues, so that it better functions as chains, and more deeply connects the body (by binding and cutting out the slack) – allowing for greater power generation; the ability to tie all of this in with movement/interaction by pairing parts of the body (in both linear ways and circular ways) – which allows you to use much of the above in a practical way (fighting application)…

... and so on (this is all just a brief explanation, otherwise I'll be typing all night)

Intent and visualization work aids with all of the above, but also has the benefit of helping you program movement patterns (so I’d group this in with something "physical"). So intent is work based around the mind's will to act, and the body’s ability to actually act (mind/body connection). This is the bit where people go, “Whaaaaat….”. Feedback loops, single point training, act before you act, etc.

Or… linking thought and mechanical action/reaction to improve movement capacity...

... and so on....

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

I have seen and felt several different ways of generating force against force that does not rely on strength and to me is amazing. I have heard people just use the term "unusual force" to describe internal martial arts and I like that description the most.

A lot of different mechanics can be used to produce a certain result. Some concepts overlap and some don't. To me, use of the dantien etc. is one type or expression of internal martial arts. The different ways you produce force are just different approaches. But there is overlap.

With a lot of internalists I have met they talk about all these concepts and dantien rotation and things but can't actually demonstrate basic force generation tests against a partner.

Wing Chun, the way we practice it, is definitely internal. I also practice another art that I picked up in Japan because I couldn't do wing chun there. They emphasized different ways to generate force using like what has been mentioned above. Tenchijin (heaven. earth, person), cross body, "the suit" - fascia connections etc, using gravity etc. These people also had a similar direct approach to internal skills, i.e. they must be demonstratable on a partner.

One of the exercises in this art that I really like is stepping forward with arms spread in opposite directions and then stepping forward while rotating the straight arms to the opposite direction. Doing this enables you to feel a stretch above the pelvis that helps you to raise your leg for a kick. So this exercise and others like it are designed to help you feel those subtle pulls within. Applying this idea to my wing chun hook kick on a pad, made it way more powerful. But after learning Bil Jee form, I realised this concept is also held within wing chun. When you do the elbows to either side, the over exagertated movement helps you to realise the connection that makes you turn. Yes, eventually it starts to feel like a ball that you can generate the movement from, rolling under or over and having an effect on the rest of your body.

 

[guy b.]

Learn to set up the frame; learn how to loosen/soften the body; learn how to align, learn how to pull and connect; learn how to wind and spiral; learn how to pair; learn how to integrate.

Inside of all of that you find the stuff and training that people in the internal arts usually reference: dantien and mingmen, breathing, intent, six harmonies, cross-body, kwa, full body power, contract and expand, open and close...

....and so on.

And it works in a cycle, too. As you progress you’re constantly returning to earlier material to refine it, further develop it, better integrate it, etc. Hence, why you never stop “basic” training like Santi, the five element fists, etc.

I don't really know what any of this means. Can you describe it in simple physical terms?

Releasing/getting rid of pre-existing problems (tension, mobility issues, etc.); a higher yield on alignment (because it now becomes more ingrained) that allows force/power to transmit nicely; building/developing the right/“correct” musculature, connective tissues, so that it better functions as chains, and more deeply connects the body (by binding and cutting out the slack) – allowing for greater power generation; the ability to tie all of this in with movement/interaction by pairing parts of the body (in both linear ways and circular ways) – which allows you to use much of the above in a practical way (fighting application)…

... and so on (this is all just a brief explanation, otherwise I'll be typing all night)

I don't see how the first part relates to the second. What is it you are actually aiming to do, and how do you do it? In simple physical terms if possible please. What do you do, why do you do it, how does it achieve what you want it to achieve?

Intent and visualization work aids with all of the above, but also has the benefit of helping you program movement patterns (so I’d group this in with something "physical"). So intent is work based around the mind's will to act, and the body’s ability to actually act (mind/body connection). This is the bit where people go, “Whaaaaat….”. Feedback loops, single point training, act before you act, etc.

Why do you use visualisation. What do you aim to do with it in physical terms?

 

[WTchap]

I also practice another art that I picked up in Japan because I couldn't do wing chun there. They emphasized different ways to generate force using like what has been mentioned above. Tenchijin (heaven. earth, person), cross body, "the suit" - fascia connections etc, using gravity etc. These people also had a similar direct approach to internal skills, i.e. they must be demonstratable on a partner.

Did you study Aunkai, by any chance? It's a modern art, but the founder studied some Tai Chi and Xingyi, and then later delved into Koryu, which in many people's opinion contains internal work (I'd agree with this, the more research being done, the more obvious it seems - which is fascinating).

 

[WTchap]

I don't really know what any of this means. Can you describe it in simple physical terms? I don't see how the first part relates to the second. What is it you are actually aiming to do, and how do you do it? In simple physical terms if possible please. What do you do, why do you do it, how does it achieve what you want it to achieve? Why do you use visualisation. What do you aim to do with it in physical terms?

I'm a little surprised by your post, to be honest. If you're studying Yiquan, much of what I wrote should be fairly apparent and clear. Yiquan stripped away the Xing, but kept the basic Yi, after all.

Maybe a little info from you would help to put us on the same page (or, at the least, help me to better understand what your Yiquan training involves).

• In your Zhan Zhuang training, what are you trying to do with the postures?
• In your Shi Li practice, how are you testing, and what are you testing?
• When you work Fa Li, how would you describe the body unity in relation to whole body/full body strength?

I ask, because years back I met a Yiquan instructor and we spent about four hours in a local park working through some of his material. There was a definite correlation between that work, and some of what I've briefly outlined in earlier posts on this thread; and there was a fair bit of visualisation/intent going on in that training, too.

So I'm a little confused by your questions.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Did you study Aunkai, by any chance? It's a modern art, but the founder studied some Tai Chi and Xingyi, and then later delved into Koryu, which in many people's opinion contains internal work (I'd agree with this, the more research being done, the more obvious it seems - which is fascinating).

Yep, Aunkai. Some of your language sounded a bit aunkai-ish. That's why I asked what you practiced.

 

[guy b.]

I'm a little surprised by your post, to be honest. If you're studying Yiquan, much of what I wrote should be fairly apparent and clear. Yiquan stripped away the Xing, but kept the basic Yi, after all.

Maybe a little info from you would help to put us on the same page (or, at the least, help me to better understand what your Yiquan training involves).

• In your Zhan Zhuang training, what are you trying to do with the postures?
• In your Shi Li practice, how are you testing, and what are you testing?
• When you work Fa Li, how would you describe the body unity in relation to whole body/full body strength?

It's not that I don't know what I do, but that your previous post contains all the usual terms used when discussing "internal", which I think gets nowhere in terms of understanding. I don't know what you do, which is why I asked.

My Yiquan involves all of these things. But the reason for it is the interesting bit.

 

[WTchap]

Yep, Aunkai. Some of your language sounded a bit aunkai-ish. That's why I asked what you practiced.

Good stuff, you were lucky to get some training in it. The language is similar, I think, as I'm trying not to use the traditional Chinese terminology that bogs down discussion . With the exception of things like Kwa, Dantien, Mingmen, etc, as I think most people studying Chinese arts know this.

 

[WTchap]

My Yiquan involves all of these things. But the reason for it is the interesting bit.

This is what I'm not getting. If your Yiquan involves these things, then joining the dots is really easy. @Wing Chun Auckland is understanding, via his Aunkai experience, and so I can't understand how you "don't know" what I do, and what I mean, via your Yiquan experience.

It might help me to better understand where you're at, if you can answer my 3 questions.

Cheers.

 

[guy b.]

If I reply to your questions then i will be answering my own previous questions to you, which would be a waste of time. For me the why and how is pretty simple and can be explained in a few sentences. I am curious as to whether you share a similar understanding or something different. Internal MA is filled with opaque language and convoluted explanation which makes signal to noise very low a lot of the time.