Lineage Battle Question

[Jens]

I wonder: how did this all start? What would WSL think of it? In the case of certain lineages, I KNOW how it started: from what I have heard, William Cheung claimed he learned the "true" style, and everyone else was taught crap. If that is true, then I know that lineage dispute started with him. However, I have never heard a similar thing about WSL.

So in his case, and in the case of other lineage disputes, how did this all get started? Was it from the top, or was it from the next level down where people took what the head of the lineage said as gospel truth that could not be changed?

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on that.

Actually the wing chun linage war started way before William Cheung. The first wing chun linage war I've heard of started between Leung Jan and Fung Siu Ching. According to Pin Sun wing chun and Tang Yick weng chun traditions it was origionally different branches of the same system, but the name got changed due to this feud from weng chun to wing chun in Leung Jan's linage. Then there was a linage war between Sum Nung And Yip Man, in which Sum Nung Claim to teach the authentic wing chun.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Purely out of curiosity, do you happen to have the Chinese Characters for "Weng Chun"?

 

[LFJ]

永春

 

[JP3]

A thought struck me re-reading this thread.

If what I've read on here (this board, since everything written here is true and historically accurate, right...) about Yip Man, his own history, learning, movements (meaning his change of residences), and eventual landing in Hong Kong where he took advantage of training... I guess we'd call them "pro" fighters, right? So, Yip man took his knowledge, taught it to young, strong & athletic young men (I presume that's who would want to learn so they could go make money) and he took what he learned from watching and reviewing, correcting, evaluating, deconstructing and reconstructing his art... call it whatever you want. My understanding is that he called it Wing Chun, but maybe I'm wrong, it's just "Yip Man's Wing Chun," or whatever.

Just knowing that, that he's actually put his art into real combative situations and used such as a laboratory to refine it... would make me want to follow that dude, learning his stuff. But, perhaps that's just me.

It really may Not be Wing Chun anymore, if it fell away from the original tree far enough. But, not being "true" Wing Chun has no bearing on if it works, or not, eh?

 

[Xue Sheng]

永春

Yǒngchūn

 

[Juany118]

.. and so began the meta-lineage wars, a never-ending argument about which lineage started the never-ending arguments about which lineages are legitimate.

you post made me think this...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I find all of this historical reference stuff extremely interesting, as my own Tomiki Aikido which I've arrived at later in life has a very similar set of schismata.

O-Sensei Morihei Ueshiba was a martial arts genius, I think that's well accepted. His back ground and experiences seem to change from person to person with whom one discusses his life, his "forming" arts are relatively generally-accepted to be primarily his Daito-ryu aikijujutsu, followed up by Kito-Ryu jujutsu (really interesting grappling, give-way, gentle art for anyone who likes that stuff), then also splashes of shinkage-ryu, goto-ha yagyu-ryu, tenjin shin'yo-ryu jujutsu, and judo (bet you didn't know that. If you did, you are part of an approximate 0.1% of martial artists who do..., so good on you.).

Since Ueshiba-san was teaching for so long (teaching career lasted all of 5 decades), there's this huge list of really notable folks who learned directly from him, e.g. Tomiki, Inoue, Mochizuki, Shioda, Tohei, Hisa, Abe, Nishio, & Saito amongst others... All advanced teachers in their own right.

But... problem was, and is, that the info which Ueshiba was teaching to Tomiki and Shioda, just as an example is WAY different from what it was that he transmitted to the later in life students, such as Tohei.

Funny thing is, all of it "works." Some is just... more gentle, and takes a Lot longer to get a grip on.

So, long story longer, this history stuff is neat to read about. Just don't fight about it. We weren't there, we don't have good records and it's not worth your blood pressure going up over.

I've actually heard Aikido folks arguing about what Ueshiba's Aikido was like, based on their lineage, and often it appears they are all correct. The extreme difference between the early (Tomiki/Shioda era) and late (Tohei era) teachings is pretty stark. I've never found anyone who was trying to pull together some of the advanced "aiki" concepts from his later teachings with what I consider the more application-oriented early teachings into a single coherent style. That would be interesting to see.

 

[wingchun100]

I don't feel so bad anymore, knowing lineage wars are not restricted to Wing Chun. I thought they were because that was all I heard about, even though I was a martial arts enthusiast LONG before my involvement with WC. When I looked into other styles that I might want to take, I never heard any of this lineage politics stuff. Good to know we are not alone.

 

[Juany118]

I've actually heard Aikido folks arguing about what Ueshiba's Aikido was like, based on their lineage, and often it appears they are all correct. The extreme difference between the early (Tomiki/Shioda era) and late (Tohei era) teachings is pretty stark. I've never found anyone who was trying to pull together some of the advanced "aiki" concepts from his later teachings with what I consider the more application-oriented early teachings into a single coherent style. That would be interesting to see.

Yeah my Sifu, like I, studied Aikido at one point, we both had teachers more toward the Daito side (Yoshinkan Aikido) and stopped studying when our respective teachers moved on and there were only instructors in our areas teaching the "later" style. We both agreed that it is all Aikido, neither is better or worse in general. Where the line gets drawn in terms of "better" is based on your subjective purpose. Why the art evolved as it did under Ueshiba is another issue entirely of course.

 

[Juany118]

I don't feel so bad anymore, knowing lineage wars are not restricted to Wing Chun. I thought they were because that was all I heard about, even though I was a martial arts enthusiast LONG before my involvement with WC. When I looked into other styles that I might want to take, I never heard any of this lineage politics stuff. Good to know we are not alone.

Oh yeah the lineage battles indeed exist elsewhere. The only think I see different is this. In Aikido there is an acknowledgement that Ueshiba did indeed change Aikido over the course of his life. The debates tend to be more nuanced. Things like "well at the time it really wasn't Aikido yet, he was still trying to form it from his aiki-jujutsu roots", "should you even look at Aikido as a combat art at all?" Inside the various organizations and schools you will then have debates on specific techniques, internal politics and stuff but it is all very nuanced as I said, I sometimes call it "very Japanese."

What drives me nuts regarding WC lineage wars is that it often isn't nuanced. It is at times as if YM is deified. He did not evolve an art, he created the empty hand from whole cloth. He did so at once and he never changed or refined anything over time. There is a TRUE YMVT and then the broken misunderstandings of others. So if their are differences between students of YM it is because the head of "their" sub Lineage is the one with the "true" knowedledge

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't feel so bad anymore, knowing lineage wars are not restricted to Wing Chun. I thought they were because that was all I heard about, even though I was a martial arts enthusiast LONG before my involvement with WC. When I looked into other styles that I might want to take, I never heard any of this lineage politics stuff. Good to know we are not alone.

The only CMA style I ever trained were a lineage 'discussion' did not seem to pop up was Xingyiquan, although I have been told they do occur. My experience so far has been more along the lines of "Who cares, shut up and train"

 

[wingchun100]

Oh yeah the lineage battles indeed exist elsewhere. The only think I see different is this. In Aikido there is an acknowledgement that Ueshiba did indeed change Aikido over the course of his life. The debates tend to be more nuanced. Things like "well at the time it really wasn't Aikido yet, he was still trying to form it from his aiki-jujutsu roots", "should you even look at Aikido as a combat art at all?" Inside the various organizations and schools you will then have debates on specific techniques, internal politics and stuff but it is all very nuanced as I said, I sometimes call it "very Japanese."

What drives me nuts regarding WC lineage wars is that it often isn't nuanced. It is at times as if YM is deified. He did not evolve an art, he created the empty hand from whole cloth. He did so at once and he never changed or refined anything over time. There is a TRUE YMVT and then the broken misunderstandings of others. So if their are differences between students of YM it is because the head of "their" sub Lineage is the one with the "true" knowedledge

That is why I try to ignore politics...ignore those who say I am learning a broken lineage...and pay attention to those who honestly want to discuss techniques and theories.

I slip sometimes, like when I created this thread, but more or less I stay on track.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah my Sifu, like I, studied Aikido at one point, we both had teachers more toward the Daito side (Yoshinkan Aikido) and stopped studying when our respective teachers moved on and there were only instructors in our areas teaching the "later" style. We both agreed that it is all Aikido, neither is better or worse in general. Where the line gets drawn in terms of "better" is based on your subjective purpose. Why the art evolved as it did under Ueshiba is another issue entirely of course.

I didn't realize your background was Yoshinkan. Now I really want to talk shop with you in person sometime. I've been told NGA's execution is closer to Yoshinkan than other Aikido.

 

[Juany118]

I didn't realize your background was Yoshinkan. Now I really want to talk shop with you in person sometime. I've been told NGA's execution is closer to Yoshinkan than other Aikido.

Might be a frustrating discussion since, as you know from some past conversations, the terminology is basically gone from brain. I basically remember how to move in certain circumstances and then need to google "what do they call that thing I just did?!?!?" Lol. 20 odd years will do that to ya

That said it is definitely different that the more "traditional" Aikido I tried later. Example, I was not always being corrected on my stance but once the Sensei went nuts. The drill was (again forget terms) how to deal with someone who has grabbed your wrist. Instead of just going straight for a lock/takedown, I threw a punch at the face of my partner. Yeah...Not the way the new Sensei did things lol.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Might be a frustrating discussion since, as you know from some past conversations, the terminology is basically gone from brain. I basically remember how to move in certain circumstances and then need to google "what do they call that thing I just did?!?!?" Lol. 20 odd years will do that to ya

That said it is definitely different that the more "traditional" Aikido I tried later. Example, I was not always being corrected on my stance but once the Sensei went nuts. The drill was (again forget terms) how to deal with someone who has grabbed your wrist. Instead of just going straight for a lock/takedown, I threw a punch at the face of my partner. Yeah...Not the way the new Sensei did things lol.

We don't use the same terms, anyway, so it won't matter much.

 

[JP3]

Tomato, tomaaaatoe (use your reading phonetic imagination)

Nomenclature is cool to use in parallel fashion when operating in a medium such as this board, but when y'all get together, it boils down to, "Hey, remember this thing?" [DEMONSTRATION] "Yeah, that's {NAME}." "OK, well how do you guys do it?" [DEMONSTRATION]

It all works out pretty quickly, in person.

 

[anerlich]

WSL didn't start anything. It's mainly Phillipp Bayer, and to a significantly lesser extent, Gary Lam, guys who keep telling everyone else that their Kung Fu is hopeless, in my experience. And both of those camps have people who do the same to the other camp. The more closely you are related, the greater the hate, or so it appears. People are weird.

WSL had a pretty good relationship with William Cheung. My instructor trained at WSL's school while in Hong Kong preparing for an international tournament in the early 1980's.

There are divisions in many martial arts. After Mas. Oyama died, Kyokushin split. In Sydney I am acquainted with two Kyokushin groups. I don't have much to do with their organisations, but have good friends in both camps. Members of each accuse the other of various self- or undeserved promotions, as the years go by. No megalomaniacs or evil geniuses in either, good people mostly, just the way things go.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Oh yeah the lineage battles indeed exist elsewhere. The only think I see different is this. In Aikido there is an acknowledgement that Ueshiba did indeed change Aikido over the course of his life. The debates tend to be more nuanced. Things like "well at the time it really wasn't Aikido yet, he was still trying to form it from his aiki-jujutsu roots", "should you even look at Aikido as a combat art at all?" Inside the various organizations and schools you will then have debates on specific techniques, internal politics and stuff but it is all very nuanced as I said, I sometimes call it "very Japanese."

What drives me nuts regarding WC lineage wars is that it often isn't nuanced. It is at times as if YM is deified. He did not evolve an art, he created the empty hand from whole cloth. He did so at once and he never changed or refined anything over time. There is a TRUE YMVT and then the broken misunderstandings of others. So if their are differences between students of YM it is because the head of "their" sub Lineage is the one with the "true" knowedledge

BJJ is a little different. There is plenty of politics (as in all martial arts and all gatherings of more than a few people), but it's mostly personality conflicts intersecting with business interests - "that former student of mine switched to another instructor and then opened up a competing school in the same town - creonte!, Traitor!" No one is seriously suggesting that a different BJJ lineage isn't legitimate or that they don't know "real" BJJ. Even the non-Gracie lineages get respect.

Probably that's because a) every BJJ black belt is expected to be able to back up their rank on the mat and b) most serious BJJ practitioners are open to stealing any idea that seems to work, no matter what lineage it comes from. When your main concern is functionality, there isn't much room for a "not invented here" mentality. This means that there's typically more individual variation within a lineage than between lineages.

 

[John dye]

I wonder: how did this all start? What would WSL think of it? In the case of certain lineages, I KNOW how it started: from what I have heard, William Cheung claimed he learned the "true" style, and everyone else was taught crap. If that is true, then I know that lineage dispute started with him. However, I have never heard a similar thing about WSL.

So in his case, and in the case of other lineage disputes, how did this all get started? Was it from the top, or was it from the next level down where people took what the head of the lineage said as gospel truth that could not be changed?

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts on that.

This B.S started after death of ip man all scrambled to become thee wing chun guy. Ip man needed tuition to survive - wsl was his top disciple and lueng ting was his last infoor student supposedly. He began. Teaching and became popular while @ convention. William churng was confronted and fight started william chueng was begging for mercy its in a photo. Emin Boztepe floored him since then. Has not stopped. - why i have little respect for wing chun lineage and i suggest you check tom wong lineage seems more in line with. Founder ipman was a hybrid ? Like 99% of kung fu in u.s.a cannot really defend in a street fight . sad or defend themselves. Those who can bully?

 

[Steve]

This B.S started after death of ip man all scrambled to become thee wing chun guy. Ip man needed tuition to survive - wsl was his top disciple and lueng ting was his last infoor student supposedly. He began. Teaching and became popular while @ convention. William churng was confronted and fight started william chueng was begging for mercy its in a photo. Emin Boztepe floored him since then. Has not stopped. - why i have little respect for wing chun lineage and i suggest you check tom wong lineage seems more in line with. Founder ipman was a hybrid ? Like 99% of kung fu in u.s.a cannot really defend in a street fight . sad or defend themselves. Those who can bully?