defense against knife attack like this ...

[Langenschwert]

Fighting against weapons are the same as fighting against an unarmed person, except if you screw up the consequences are worse.

Your enemy's body has to move the same way, he'll come at you from the same angle he would without a weapon, so do any technique, just don't get stabbed.

just move, hit, and turn. He'll fall down. You might be a bloody mess, but he'll fall down.

OK, asides from universals such as range and timing, you couldn't be more wrong.

Weapons change everything. All the chokes and submissions in the world won't help you against a knife fighter... he'll stab you while you're busy applying the choke, in say the femoral artery if you're trying to choke from the rear. Punches may not do anything... you can take a punch to give a punch, so you can take a punch to give a fatal stabbing, can't you? If you take him down, he'll stab you on the way to the ground. There's a reason why medieval manuals only talked about knife fighting on the ground when the combatants were armoured. If you take a knife fighter to the ground and go with him, the arm must be broken. If you take him down and remain standing, that's a bit better, since you're in a nice position to RUN LIKE HELL.

Bypassing even the best knife defences is a simple matter for a decent knife fighter. A knife turns even a weak jab into a killing stroke, and a glancing blow into a life-altering injury. I'm not saying that knife defences are impossible, I'm just saying that it's a different beast, one that has to be trained religiously and fantatically to have a reasonable chance of success. Also, knife defences are unlikely to work against a duellist, someone who makes an art out of knife fighting. Look for "Piper System" to get an idea of what facing a knife-fighter is really all about.

Don't even get me talking about trying to defend against a sword.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[searcher]

Small weapns can be hidden. Flak jackets... less so.

A Carhart can be pretty good as one level of a flak jacket. All they have to do is line their coat and shazaam, flak jacket. It is not the best protection in the world, but it is still pretty good. I have worn heavy canvas coats for years and they are fairly cut resistant.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Don't even get me talking about trying to defend against a sword.

From what I remember from jiu-jitsu, kendo and now ninpo, you have basically the following options:
- get close before the weapon is drawn.
- evade the first swing and get close (only works with inexperienced swordsmen or if you have superskillzzz)
- run

I'd choose door number 3

 

[Aiki Lee]

Wow...a lot of responses to my comment let's see if I can adress them all.

From Daniel : "Unless you can effectively close the distance and get in too close for the weapon to be effective, you are effectively screwed. Even then, if your attacker can make use of elbows, knees, and grapples while armed, you are in for a tough fight. If he regains the upper hand, you could find yourself on the ground and either impailed, or having blows rained down upon you while you cannot move around."

Well yes. The idea is that one must be able to effectively close the distance to neutralize being on the recieving end of the blow, I'm not advocating rushing directly into to getting stabbed, but to effectively move to a postition of power and take control. One must be quick, enter in with a strike to distract them from the technique you will use to disarm them or put them down for good so that they are unable to effectively counter you.

sgtmac_46 said this "That's kind of like of saying 'Playing the piano is easy......you just have to hit all the right keys at the right time'... "

perhaps one misunderstood what I meant. The idea is simple, but not necessarily easy. A good piano player would say that 'Playing the piano is easy......you just have to hit all the right keys at the right time'. Just as a good martial artist could say that it is simple so long as one avoids being cut badly.

Searcher said "Himura-have you ever been in a knife fight? I have andletmetell you a little something. There is nothing easy about fighting against a weapon and it is way different then fighting against empty hands.

You are going to get cut and it is not going to last very long. Knife fights never last very long and they are always very bloody."

no i have not been in a real knife fight but my line of work presents the danger that I might eventually be in one so I take my training very seriously. We train with chalk knife to know where we are getting cut when we make mistakes and if we take more than three cuts we fail (although I am aware that one good cut can result in death, they don't always). When the techniques are done properly with proper timing, and proper distancing and 100% commitment we recieve no cuts.

Daniel Sulliven said "He will have angles that an unarmed opponent would not be able to take advantage of without a weapon. With a sword, I can come at you from angles that would be impossible with my hands or feet. Even your ability to block is affected."

First off, we don't block in my martial art, so that's not a concern for me. What I meant by the angles of attack being the same unarmed as they are with weapons are that while the angles may be slightly different they attacks are still either hooking or curved motions or straight motions. I have had practice defending unarmed against all kinds of weapons, and while I'm definitely no excpert I have found that if you do not place your focus on the weapon itself you are not as intimidated by it and are more likely to act more decisively making your chances for survival greater (principle of deai, sen sen no sen, and go no sen)

you also said this daniel "Move, hit and turn, but you must do so against an opponent who's range has been extended by a minimum of a few inches and can badly injure you with what would normally be a lighter blow. You are correct in that the principles of fighting remain the same. But the dynamic changes substantially with the addition of a weapon. As you rightly indicate, you can end up a bloody mess, and with far less effort on your attacker's part and in ways much deadlier than a bloody nose. "

And yes I agree 100%. This is sort of what I meant, I just must not have been very clear

Ugh I'm late for class, Langenschwert: I'll address your comment next time I'm on.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Wow...a lot of responses to my comment let's see if I can adress them all.

Hey, you're one of the best posters here, in my opinion at least. You should expect lots of responses.

From Daniel : "Unless you can effectively close the distance and get in too close for the weapon to be effective, you are effectively screwed. Even then, if your attacker can make use of elbows, knees, and grapples while armed, you are in for a tough fight. If he regains the upper hand, you could find yourself on the ground and either impailed, or having blows rained down upon you while you cannot move around."

Well yes. The idea is that one must be able to effectively close the distance to neutralize being on the recieving end of the blow, I'm not advocating rushing directly into to getting stabbed, but to effectively move to a postition of power and take control. One must be quick, enter in with a strike to distract them from the technique you will use to disarm them or put them down for good so that they are unable to effectively counter you.

We practice this in class. Once the gear is on and the attacker is armed with a bamboo sword and can move in realtime, rather than as a partner drill, it is very, very difficult to do. If you can close the distance, strike or not, disarming someone holding a sword, club or bat is still a challenge. Disarming a knife wielding opponent can be even more problematic.

Knife defense drills are quite humblling, and that's knowing that the guy accross from you has a rubber blade.

Daniel Sullivan said "He will have angles that an unarmed opponent would not be able to take advantage of without a weapon. With a sword, I can come at you from angles that would be impossible with my hands or feet. Even your ability to block is affected."

First off, we don't block in my martial art, so that's not a concern for me. What I meant by the angles of attack being the same unarmed as they are with weapons are that while the angles may be slightly different they attacks are still either hooking or curved motions or straight motions. I have had practice defending unarmed against all kinds of weapons, and while I'm definitely no expert I have found that if you do not place your focus on the weapon itself you are not as intimidated by it and are more likely to act more decisively making your chances for survival greater (principle of deai, sen sen no sen, and go no sen).

Absolutely correct; you don't focus on the weapon. I was refering to the general defender, not you specifically.

Regarding blocks, parries would be likewise affected if your style uses those.

you also said this daniel "Move, hit and turn, but you must do so against an opponent who's range has been extended by a minimum of a few inches and can badly injure you with what would normally be a lighter blow. You are correct in that the principles of fighting remain the same. But the dynamic changes substantially with the addition of a weapon. As you rightly indicate, you can end up a bloody mess, and with far less effort on your attacker's part and in ways much deadlier than a bloody nose. "

And yes I agree 100%. This is sort of what I meant, I just must not have been very clear.

Kind of figured that. Wasn't so much a lack of clarity as a lack of qualifying a bit more than you did. Anytime you make a brief, definative remark without a lot of qualification, my experience is that it gets picked apart. That's why I tend to overtype.

Daniel

 

[Aiki Lee]

Ok I'm back let's continue.

Langenschwert said "Weapons change everything. All the chokes and submissions in the world won't help you against a knife fighter... he'll stab you while you're busy applying the choke, in say the femoral artery if you're trying to choke from the rear."

I would never attempt such a thing until after removing the knife or other weapon from him. Clearly one wouldn't want to ignore the dangers of the knife, but one does not want to be so concerned with getting cut that he hesitates to act.

"Punches may not do anything... you can take a punch to give a punch, so you can take a punch to give a fatal stabbing, can't you?"
One could theoretically kill with a single punch as well or at least knock someone down, but regardless strikes should be used to enter in and set up a "finishing" blow. The fight ender. If someone is trying to stab me I won't just be trying to punch him, I will strike to set him up to throw him on his head or whip him to the ground so I can kill him or at least badly injure him to the point of not being ableto fight back.

"If you take him down, he'll stab you on the way to the ground. If you take a knife fighter to the ground and go with him, the arm must be broken. If you take him down and remain standing, that's a bit better, since you're in a nice position to RUN LIKE HELL."

When I put a knife attacker to the ground he will either be broken or dead. If I fall with him, it is because I would have messed up which may cause injury to me. O could snap his wrist with a kote gaeshi or break his elbow with muso dori, or do any number of this, so long as I am aware of the potential danger and do not let it get the best of me." And yes I do advocate running like hell, once he's on the floor, but in my line of work I may actually have to hold him there if he stabs me or a client so I may not realistically be able to escape the situation, because it might be my job to control him until police arrive.

"Bypassing even the best knife defences is a simple matter for a decent knife fighter."
This is a matter of escalation of skill. Obviously the more skilled a martial artist or fighter is the more difficult it will be to effectively stop them. A decent knife fighter may be able to bypasse the defenses of the best techniuqes when being performed by someone less skilled than he. A well trained warrior should be able to effective defend against weapon attacks without treating them much differently than an unarmed attack. As daniel said, the principles stay the same, only the dynamics change so if one has experience training with these changing dynamics he can reasonably be expected to handle the situation. If the knife fighter is very skilled it i anyone's game.

"A knife turns even a weak jab into a killing stroke, and a glancing blow into a life-altering injury."
Yes, if they strike a vital target.

"I'm not saying that knife defences are impossible, I'm just saying that it's a different beast, one that has to be trained religiously and fantatically to have a reasonable chance of success."

Agreed. It takes effort and hard work to realistically defend against such things, but again the principles of combat remain the same whether armed or not.
"Also, knife defences are unlikely to work against a duellist, someone who makes an art out of knife fighting."

I assume I would like not come across a master knife fighter in my lifetime, but someone who masters martial arts should stand a reasonable chance. It all happens in an instant so it simply who maintains control of the fight's flow.

Daniel said, "Knife defense drills are quite humblling, and that's knowing that the guy accross from you has a rubber blade."

Man do I know. Think of how nerve wracking it will be for me when we start training more often with live blades. As long as one can make the situation feel real, I think we can come pretty close to what a real fight would be like. I realize things break down and don't end up being the same in the real world as they are in the dojo, but that's why we improve our training to be able to get closer to what it could be like and judge how well we would do.

 

[MA-Caver]

As Carol initially said and was echoed by many others... STAY OUT of Prison.

But out on the streets... like someone else said... you can't guard 360 degrees of your personal space 24/7... you can only heighten your awareness proportional to the area/environment you're in and go from there and do your best.
Also expect the unexpected.

All you can do is all you can do.

 

[just2kicku]

I think that if your're out on the street and have the time and space to defend yourself against an attack then yeah, you could do it, you just try not to get cut anywhere that's gonna kill you.

But in a suprise attack, there's really no defense for it. We interact with people all the time, we walk by people on the street. I don't know who has it out for me. Anyone could come and sucker stab you a few times before you even know what's going on. Like Carver said, you do the best you can but there's some things you'll have no control over. I've heard many stories of people getting stabbed just walking down the street by people they did not know that came out of nowhere. No defense for that, until we grow eyes in the back of our head, you can't always watch your six.

It's like saying you would duck behind a rock against a sniper.... oops, too late.

 

[Aiki Lee]

yeah the only real defense here would be hoping you could pick up on someone's killing intent before they get you, but that's a hard thing to do.

 

[MJS]

Well, tonight, during my Arnis lesson, I spoke with my inst. about this attack. He is a Capt. in the Dept. Of Corrections, he's seen alot in regards to prison attacks of various nature, so I trust his opinion.

He suggested to cover almost in the fashion as a boxer would cover against a hook punch to the ribs, kidney area. His line of thinking...you're probably going to get cut anyways, so better to take a cut on the arm, rather than risking the body. At the same time, the opponent is most likely going to be close enough, so he suggested a simultaneous cover and strike to the face. This could be a poke to the eyes, palm or punch to the face.

Now, he then suggested to gain control of the weapon arm, and continue to hammer away at the guy with elbows, knees, etc. Given the fact that this took place in a prison, the weapon may not be the largest item. In other words, it could be a toothbrush filed down to a point, a razor blade melted onto the end of a toothbrush, etc. there is a good chance that it may be a small item, therefore, instead of wasting time trying to a disarm, punish the guy, as I said with knees, elbows, etc.

Again, this is only a possible suggestion. I'm in no way saying that this is the best defense, however, we drilled it a bit tonight, and it seemed to work pretty well, so, take it for what its worth.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Your suggestion sounds similar to something we would try in our dojo.

 

[suicide]

id fight for possesion of that knife take it from him and start stabbing him back %-}

 

[sgtmac_46]

I detect a degree of confidence on the part of some people that is far beyond what the reality of the situation should lend a sober mind......it's further reinforced by some unrealistic expectations of how these situations unfold, and what techniques have a high probability of working.


If one wants to truly give their theory life, they need to study the mindset of the kinds of folks on the other end of that blade in prison....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO3Nw5cddd8&feature=related

Also note the physical condition of many of those individuals, and the physical conditioning training they do, even in a cage......AND you won't be fighting just ONE guy with a shank........two or three will show up to murder you!

 

[MJS]

I detect a degree of confidence on the part of some people that is far beyond what the reality of the situation should lend a sober mind......it's further reinforced by some unrealistic expectations of how these situations unfold, and what techniques have a high probability of working.


If one wants to truly give their theory life, they need to study the mindset of the kinds of folks on the other end of that blade in prison....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO3Nw5cddd8&feature=related

Also note the physical condition of many of those individuals, and the physical conditioning training they do, even in a cage......AND you won't be fighting just ONE guy with a shank........two or three will show up to murder you!

There is so much truth to this post its not even funny! I worked for the DOC for a short time. I've since moved on, and I often reflect back on my time there, and think to myself that it was probably good that I'm no longer working there.

I remember one night, I worked the 4-12 shift, I was talking to an inmate. This guy never gave me a hard time. In fact, he would usually tell the trouble makers to shut the hell up and stop acting like *******s. So, during this chat, he proceeds to tell me that he is looking at life in prison...for murder. Killing someone else in prison, assaulting staff, breaking any rules...it didn't matter to him. He said, "So what, you take away my phone calls for a week, my rec. for a week, visits, whatever..it didn't matter. I'm going to die behind bars, so no matter what you do, it'll only be a matter of time, and I'll get my calls back, my visits, etc."

The fact that this guy would have no bones about killing me or anyone else, and not worry about the after effects, makes you think. While watching that clip, there were only a handful of skinny guys. The majority were huge. Then again, if you have nothing to do all day, may as well work out. Workout, hone your fighting skills, come up with ways to escape and counter the security measures in place...thats all they do, day in, day out.

So, like it was said, it makes you think....will the defenses that the average martial artist trains in, really work?

 

[arnisador]

So, like it was said, it makes you think....will the defenses that the average martial artist trains in, really work?

The average martial artist trains mostly for a one-on-one assault from an opponent (typically unarmed) facing him. It's almost a dueling situation.

This is entirely different. Self-defense in there just isn't a one man job.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So, like it was said, it makes you think....will the defenses that the average martial artist trains in, really work?

In prison? Depends on who you're stuck with. I'd say that they give you at least somthing in your toolbox that the average Joe wouldn't have, but that is about it.

In prison, and I speak as one never having served a prison sentence nor having worked in corrections, I think that being aware of your surroundings, the politics, and doing your best to steer clear of trouble is more important than technique and training. When those things don't work, technique and training are good things to have, but they're just tools.

Really the best bet is to do your best to steer clear of trouble on the outside and do your best to not end up on the inside. The biggest disadvantage that the average MA student has in prison is that they're not going to be accustomed to the environment, which can get them hurt or killed.

Daniel

 

[Langenschwert]

The fact that this guy would have no bones about killing me or anyone else, and not worry about the after effects, makes you think. While watching that clip, there were only a handful of skinny guys. The majority were huge. Then again, if you have nothing to do all day, may as well work out. Workout, hone your fighting skills, come up with ways to escape and counter the security measures in place...thats all they do, day in, day out.

So, like it was said, it makes you think....will the defenses that the average martial artist trains in, really work?

If someone takes it into their head to shank you and is willing to risk the consequences, then you're in a heap of trouble. Your only real hope in that kind of situation is to shank him first... you and 10 of your closest friends. If it's that serious and you're in a contained, violent environment like prison, there's not a lot of choice.

And no, few of us train with enough resistance often enough to be able to deal with an experienced, determined knife-weilding thug that outweighs us by 50 lbs or more. Most of us are dilletantes... mere effete, deluded, naive wannabe's in a world populated by trained and EXPERIENCED killers.

Think of it this way... if you're a decent amateur violinist who's never performed in public, could you make it through a gig with the New York Philharmonic? Nope... you'd likely fall like a house of cards... there's the amateur and then there's the professional. Very few musicians think they have the chops to hang with that orchestra, even if they have good training. So why do so many martial artists think that a couple of hours training a week would make one capable of swimming with the big fish when it's your actual life on the line? *shrug*

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Very few musicians think they have the chops to hang with that orchestra, even if they have good training. So why do so many martial artists think that a couple of hours training a week would make one capable of swimming with the big fish when it's your actual life on the line? *shrug*

Its the same mentality as the old Charles Atlas ads, where the 98lb. weakling gets sand kicked in his face, does the Atlas program and comes back, seemingly the following week, big and buff and the bully just magically leaves him alone.

'I take karate' makes us feel so secure. 'I know techniques that can kill' makes us feel superior. Movies where the 98lb. weakling bounces off the walls and overwhelms his opponents with his 'karate' makes us feel invincible. After all, we take karate too.

We buy into the myth. It is comforting.

But no matter how you slice it, on the outside, training and working out all day is only an option for the pro athlete. Even if the average MA student had the time to train and work out all day, few would, though I'm sure we'd train a lot more. We have lives and families and goals outside of just martial arts.

Reality is that none of us are Jason Statham in Deathrace, who gets dropped into prison and can simply beat up everyone and intimidate them by rasping with a British accent.

Train to keep yourself alive in the real world and stay out of prison. Make escape your primary goal in an encounter and if you're protecting others, accept that you may have to take one for the team to ensure their escape.

Daniel

 

[Aiki Lee]

yes being in a fight with weapons involved and multiple attackers would indeed be terrifying. The methods for handling weapon attackers and multiple attackers are simple but not easy.

It all depends on how realistically one trains and if they can maintain the proper mindset during training and during the fight.

 

[MJS]

The average martial artist trains mostly for a one-on-one assault from an opponent (typically unarmed) facing him. It's almost a dueling situation.

This is entirely different. Self-defense in there just isn't a one man job.

Oh, I don't disagree. However, I think its safe to say that we've both seen techniques that made you go Hmmmmm.....