Arts that teach knife and gun defense

[skribs]

It sounds like you feel that the weapon is now "out of play" since it has been knocked out of his hand. I would expect that he would regain that weapon as fast as possible. I don't think he will forget about it, take up a stance and dance around. If you don't quickly secure the weapon, he will, and you get to try that disarm again. (except that this time, he is ready for it)

Most of the time when we disarm someone in class, the weapon goes flying across the room. Yes, it would be out of play. Especially if it happens outside in the bushes. A lot of the motions we use to disarm someone would break their arm as well.

You're under some sort of flawed assumption that the idea is "take the knife from the opponent, place it on the ground, and then taunt him." No. You continue to fight, using the martial arts you've already trained. If you are between your enemy and the weapon, he is either going to have to dance around you or go through you. If the weapon is away from you (especially a knife) that gives you a chance to run while he's going to get it. There's a lot of if's and's or but's, but the thing is if you get the weapon away from your attacker, it's not something he's going to immediately have access to. And your fighting training applies at that point.

 

[wab25]

You're under some sort of flawed assumption that the idea is "take the knife from the opponent, place it on the ground, and then taunt him."

Not sure where you got that idea. To be clear, my ideal is that I take the weapon from them, and then use it against them. If it does go flying across the room, I am going after it or another weapon of opportunity. (it also means I failed part of my disarm... I really don't want the weapon flying... I want to be the one with the weapon... I don't want it flying off and hurting an innocent bystander... or being picked up by the guys buddy)

If you are between your enemy and the weapon, he is either going to have to dance around you or go through you.

My bet is that he has an adrenaline rush, and plows right through you, to the weapon.

If the weapon is away from you (especially a knife) that gives you a chance to run while he's going to get it.

If its a gun, you better be really fast at running.... bullets are not slow. If it is a knife, it depends on how fast you can run verses him. At that point it becomes a weapon of opportunity... I get the closest weapon I can get.

but the thing is if you get the weapon away from your attacker, it's not something he's going to immediately have access to

But there is a very good chance, your attacker will be extremely focused on getting that weapon back, whether its behind you (he is charging through you), it's across the room (he will get there first) or in your hand (he will charge you and wrestle it away from you to kill you with it). Or, he will grab his other weapon. Just cause he has one knife out, does not mean he only has one.

Sure, they could run. But I would rather train for the situation where he intends to follow through with his threat.

You continue to fight, using the martial arts you've already trained.

As soon as you start to have any success with the disarm... the situation changes. It is not a martial arts fight, at that point. (not a TKD match, not a Karate match, or Judo match...) Its a guy trying to kill you, right now, with all his intent.

If its a gun, and you knock it out of his hand, and it goes "out of play," just like in your scenario... then you dance around, and play tag till he leaves or gets KOed. What to you then do with the gun? You wouldn't just leave it would you? Should you go unload it? Put the safety on?

With all the gun training you were claiming earlier... why are you so against adding 10-15 minutes of gun safety and basic shooting to a gun disarm class? This really confuses me. Do you really think that someone with no gun experience at all, will get more out of an extra 10 minutes of practice, without knowing anything about the weapon? I think that educating them about the weapon first, will make the rest of the training time much more valuable. Its quite easy to wrestle a gun away from someone without getting shot when they have no idea how to hold it, aim it, shoot it, retain it... And its training bad habits to assume that the event is over, just because the weapon is out of their hand.

When I train a gun disarm, it is not over until I have the gun, I have "tapped and racked" it, so it is ready to shoot, the gun is aimed at him, I have distance so he can't reach me and he is responding to my commands (get down on the ground!). It doesn't matter if I took the gun out of his hand, or the gun gets dropped or flies across the room. I continue and expect my partner to continue, until I get the above mentioned position. This is the same for all my weapon disarm training.

 

[skribs]

As soon as you start to have any success with the disarm... the situation changes. It is not a martial arts fight, at that point. (not a TKD match, not a Karate match, or Judo match...) Its a guy trying to kill you, right now, with all his intent.

What? It's a fight in self-defense, just like any other fight for self defense against an unarmed attacker. If anything, at this point it IS a martial arts fight.

My bet is that he has an adrenaline rush, and plows right through you, to the weapon.

So you don't have an adrenaline rush? You can't defend against a charge?

With all the gun training you were claiming earlier... why are you so against adding 10-15 minutes of gun safety and basic shooting to a gun disarm class? This really confuses me. Do you really think that someone with no gun experience at all, will get more out of an extra 10 minutes of practice, without knowing anything about the weapon? I think that educating them about the weapon first, will make the rest of the training time much more valuable.

Because gun safety isn't a 5 minute talk you get and never mention again. It's something that you reinforce all the time.

And I've never said I'm against the idea. I even said I liked the idea when Buka brought it up. I said I do not think it is a prerequisite to learn the disarms. If you cannot differentiate between "not a prerequisite" and "bad idea" (only one of which I said), I really don't know what to say.

 

[Buka]

So be careful!

 

[skribs]

View attachment 22655

So be careful!

Hence why I said I would wear eye pro with the airsoft gun

 

[CB Jones]

Most of the time when we disarm someone in class, the weapon goes flying across the room

IMO, when disarming a gun from someone the gun should always be controlled. That is where disarming someone with a knife and someone with a gun is different.

Gun disarms should always involve grabbing the gun, moving out from in front of it, and ripping it from their grasp. Gun grips do not give enough leverage to hold on to.

This is why some knowledge of gun handling is important. Or better yet...knowledge of gun retention is important. If you understand what is needed to retain a gun....then you understand what is needed to disarm a gun.

 

[drop bear]

IMO, when disarming a gun from someone the gun should always be controlled. That is where disarming someone with a knife and someone with a gun is different.

Gun disarms should always involve grabbing the gun, moving out from in front of it, and ripping it from their grasp. Gun grips do not give enough leverage to hold on to.

This is why some knowledge of gun handling is important. Or better yet...knowledge of gun retention is important. If you understand what is needed to retain a gun....then you understand what is needed to disarm a gun.

I basically have one disarm so I do tend to wind up with the gun.

But if it did go flying across the room I would still consider that a win to be honest.

 

[CB Jones]

But if it did go flying across the room I would still consider that a win to be honest

The problem is not it going flying....its when bit doesn't go flying and its still in the bad guys hand and you don't have control of the gun.

At the very least, I want to make sure I end up with a good grip on the barrel/slide where I have the advantage in leverage.

If the gun typically goes flying when training...something isnt right.

 

[skribs]

The problem is not it going flying....its when bit doesn't go flying and its still in the bad guys hand and you don't have control of the gun.

At the very least, I want to make sure I end up with a good grip on the barrel/slide where I have the advantage in leverage.

If the gun typically goes flying when training...something isnt right.

That makes sense. We've only recently started gun disarms at 3rd degree, where we've been doing knife defense since red belt, so most of my disarms in class are knife disarms.

 

[WaterGal]

You use the other martial arts skills you've been taught. I thought this would have been obvious. The fact you're bringing it up as a counterpoint suggests you're just here to argue and not actually thinking through what you're saying.

And then what? So you beat the bad guy to the ground.... where the gun is... and yeah you broke his kneecap or whatever, but now he's holding the gun and shoots you and all your martial arts skills are for nothing.

 

[WaterGal]

I learned a bunch of knife disarms in Hapkido, but I had multiple police officers/prison guards I trained with who said that none of the attacks we were training to defend against were how actual criminals use a knife to fight in real life.

We were training to defend against someone who was making a huge wild swinging slash, or a giant downward stab like the shower scene in Psycho. According to the police officers I talked to, real criminals will hide the knife in their shirt or pocket, come up right against you, and make a bunch of short quick stabs at zero range. So the way you deal with that different. I'm not sure how you do deal with it, honestly, other than "don't get that close".

 

[skribs]

I learned a bunch of knife disarms in Hapkido, but I had multiple police officers/prison guards I trained with who said that none of the attacks we were training to defend against were how actual criminals use a knife to fight in real life.

We were training to defend against someone who was making a huge wild swinging slash, or a giant downward stab like the shower scene in Psycho. According to the police officers I talked to, real criminals will hide the knife in their shirt or pocket, come up right against you, and make a bunch of short quick stabs at zero range. So the way you deal with that different. I'm not sure how you do deal with it, honestly, other than "don't get that close".

The attack we generally train against is a lunge, but that would be the most similar to the short shanks you're talking about. We do train against a downward stab as well, but that's only one of our techniques.

 

[skribs]

And then what? So you beat the bad guy to the ground.... where the gun is... and yeah you broke his kneecap or whatever, but now he's holding the gun and shoots you and all your martial arts skills are for nothing.

Ideally it's not where the gun is.

 

[CB Jones]

The attack we generally train against is a lunge, but that would be the most similar to the short shanks you're talking about. We do train against a downward stab as well, but that's only one of our techniques.

Are lunges the common knife attack?

I would think grabbing with quick closeup stabs would be more common.

 

[skribs]

Are lunges the common knife attack?

I would think grabbing with quick closeup stabs would be more common.

I think they are closer to a quick closeup stab than a wide haymaker slash or a pick attack.

 

[drop bear]

I learned a bunch of knife disarms in Hapkido, but I had multiple police officers/prison guards I trained with who said that none of the attacks we were training to defend against were how actual criminals use a knife to fight in real life.

We were training to defend against someone who was making a huge wild swinging slash, or a giant downward stab like the shower scene in Psycho. According to the police officers I talked to, real criminals will hide the knife in their shirt or pocket, come up right against you, and make a bunch of short quick stabs at zero range. So the way you deal with that different. I'm not sure how you do deal with it, honestly, other than "don't get that close".

I have a theory on that. In that you just beat crap out of them until you can gain momentum.

Now in theory it is low percentage. But you might clip the guy hard enough to stop his attack. And if you do you will have done that in a split second.

Or you secure the arm which is ls still low percentage and it takes longer and if you do catch the arm to still have to work out from there what you are going to do with it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I learned a bunch of knife disarms in Hapkido, but I had multiple police officers/prison guards I trained with who said that none of the attacks we were training to defend against were how actual criminals use a knife to fight in real life.

We were training to defend against someone who was making a huge wild swinging slash, or a giant downward stab like the shower scene in Psycho. According to the police officers I talked to, real criminals will hide the knife in their shirt or pocket, come up right against you, and make a bunch of short quick stabs at zero range. So the way you deal with that different. I'm not sure how you do deal with it, honestly, other than "don't get that close".

I've always had an issue with this. These are fine to train against as a starting point, so long as we recognize them for what they are. Eventually, training should progress to attacks that are more realistic. I had a prison guard I trained with claim nobody could block his knife attack (firstly, because he was expecting only defenses he'd seen in the dojo, and secondly because he wasn't really doing a knife attack, but really a shove and downward pull. I used something that was an adaptation based on principles I picked up at a Kali seminar. Was it 100%? Of course not, but it did work. Since then I've tried to push more of the training toward attacks that aren't so telegraphed or stylized.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Are lunges the common knife attack?

I would think grabbing with quick closeup stabs would be more common.

According to a video review one guy (I've long since forgotten his name). significantly more than half (I think the actual number was 61%) of knife attacks led with the off hand - a punch, grab, or push.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have a theory on that. In that you just beat crap out of them until you can gain momentum.

Now in theory it is low percentage. But you might clip the guy hard enough to stop his attack. And if you do you will have done that in a split second.

Or you secure the arm which is ls still low percentage and it takes longer and if you do catch the arm to still have to work out from there what you are going to do with it.

Pretty much this. It's all low percentage if the person has any skill, but what testing seems to show as most reliable is either control distance and try to hurt them ("beat the crap out of them") to get an opening, or trap that arm and own it. Either way, you're probably going to bleed.

 

[Flying Crane]

I've always had an issue with this. These are fine to train against as a starting point, so long as we recognize them for what they are. Eventually, training should progress to attacks that are more realistic. I had a prison guard I trained with claim nobody could block his knife attack (firstly, because he was expecting only defenses he'd seen in the dojo, and secondly because he wasn't really doing a knife attack, but really a shove and downward pull. I used something that was an adaptation based on principles I picked up at a Kali seminar. Was it 100%? Of course not, but it did work. Since then I've tried to push more of the training toward attacks that aren't so telegraphed or stylized.

Prison guard was going around shanking people? Did he practice on inmates?