Defending your country is not murder.

[Josh Oakley]

So history repeats itself. We have yet another potential enemy, trained to fight against another enemy we have trained, that can later be used as an a new threat and convenient reason to go to war.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[Tez3]

The point is though that we sent soldiers in and now we are punishing those soldiers for doing what was asked of them. Whether we should have gone in is a different issue altogether and to be honest I'd like to focus on the Royal Marines rather than whether we should have gone to war in Afghanistan. The politics of the situation is less relevant than the politics of making servicemen scapegoats.
The other thing is that you are overlooking the natural wealth of Afghanistan in valuable ores and minerals, worth a fortune to the companies (and countries) who can get them. Iraq was oil and Afghanistan is ores and minerals.

 

[Sukerkin]

A very good letter, TG - thank you for bringing that to the fore.

I am fairly sure that it is the confused and inadequate counter-insurgency agenda that has contributed to the situtation that has lead the Royal Marines to their current 'legal' plight.

 

[Instructor]

Sounds like they're trying to apply US self defense laws to a war zone, which is absolutely insane.

Actually in most of the U.S. you can shoot if somebody merely points a firearm at you, they don't have to fire first. This means that the ROE for these soldiers is actually more risky than our civil laws.

 

[Tgace]

If all our soldiers are allowed to do is drive/walk around and be targets, and not be given the ability to take the fight to the enemy...... than it's time to leave.

 

[Makalakumu]

If all our soldiers are allowed to do is drive/walk around and be targets, and not be given the ability to take the fight to the enemy...... than it's time to leave.

And, as this thread is about "unjustly" killing civilians by the Royal Marines, we avoid more of these incidents by pulling out.

 

[billc]

Tez is right. Combat is not a police action so more latitude must be given to our soldiers fighting these monsters.

************

DISCLAIMER...

To those about to jump on me by accusing me of condoning atrocities committed by our soldiers, and I also mean our allies, let me state this clearly. I do not, nor have I ever condoned the committing of war crimes by our soldiers, our allies, or even close relatives of our soldiers in peacetime or in actual combat. No, I do not consider waterboarding a war crime, but that is not part of this topic so let's not go there either.

END DISCLAIMER....

*************

Civillians who have never been in the military or experienced combat must understand that fighting an enemy that is intent on killing you requires the ability to meet that force with sometimes what may seem like excessive force in a civilian police setting. Trying to meet an attack by monster who torture and kill civilians as well as soldiers with "equal," force is in most cases silly and impractical and costs the lives of our people. I support these Marines. If they actually did something wrong, I retract my support. However, like the case brought against our Navy Seals for punching a prisoner, I give the benefit of the doubt to our guys...you know, the good guys in this fight.

 

[Makalakumu]

I give the benefit of the doubt to our guys...you know, the good guys in this fight.

We're not the good guys. This isn't a justifiable war and it hasn't been for a long time. If we simply look at the numbers of dead, the amount of property damage, and the amount of long term lasting pollution we've spread around Afghanistan, it far outstrips anything any terrorists ever did to any of the NATO nations. The use of DU alone is a crime against humanity, Bill. For that, NATO lost any semblance of moral high ground. DU will kill innocents thousands of years in the future, in a time where humans won't even remember what this particular war was ever about.

If NATO is fighting to defend the countries involved, we must draw upon some definition of defense in order for the word "defend" to have any meaning. If the Taliban represent a clear and present threat that requires the sacrifice of blood and treasure as well as the murder of innocents, let the NATO governments present that case to the people and actually declare war based on evidence. If that threat is so terrible that it justifies 98% civilian casualty rates, thousands of years of radioactive pollution, massive destruction of property, and hundreds of thousands dead, lets be really clear about what that threat is.

On one level, the truth is that this so called threat can't even threaten the citizens of NATO countries more than bee stings. More people die from bee stings each year than from a threat that we are currently spending NATO countries into bankruptcy for. Which brings up another level of truth, a level that most people don't want to look at...why the **** are we really there?

Which brings me around the Royal Marines. It doesn't matter if they shot that guy in accordance with the rules of engagement. It's wrong no matter what. The poor sods signed their lives away to a corrupt government that fed them a bunch of lies and sent them away to kill people over a boogeyman myth. If they are being victimized in any way, it's by the twisted corporate bureaucrats with their obfuscated convoluted self serving agendas. The soldiers, the civilians, the Taliban, and Al Qaeda are merely pawns to them.

Polls say that the majority of people in all of the NATO countries see through some level of the lies and want their soldiers home NOW. In the US, the majority of troops themselves supported a leader who would end this mess immediately, which is why over 70% favored Ron Paul. Despite this, NATO is still there and is tacking on months to the withdrawal date. Democracy has failed to make any difference. I think the time will come where only individual action will matter. You can choose to be part of an evil empire or you can choose not to be part of it. The children of the future, the children whose labor was stolen in the form of debt to pay for this, will remember the people who choose to be a part of this.

They will say that this was not defense. This was murder. This was pillage. This was wrong.

 

[Tgace]

I think you have a fundamental error in thinking regarding the history of war and warfare. If you think it's all a one dimensional "government boogyman" conspiracy than your blinders are as dark as those who think its all "fighting for mom, apple pie and the American way". There are plenty of good people out there who believe that they are doing whats right...even if whats right is simply trying to keep each other alive....good people.

 

[Makalakumu]

There are plenty of good people out there who believe that they are doing whats right...even if whats right is simply trying to keep each other alive....good people.

Good people can get stuck in bad situations, but the measure of a person's integrity is how they choose to deal with that. In the end, just as we discussed in the Necessary Evil thread, a line has to be drawn somewhere and sometimes tough calls have to be made. I know a lot of good men who are experiencing a lot of pain over this very issue and I have a lot of empathy for this. A friend of mine has one year left and hates what he feels he has to do for his family...at the expense of some other man's family over there.

 

[Tgace]

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/10/30/michael-yon-president-obama-fumbled-afghanistan/

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sukerkin]

The man writes bluntly but, party-political comments set to one side, it is hard to disagree with much of what he says on the practicalities of a non-war in which our Allied troops still die (all too often at the hands of those they have trained).

 

[Tez3]

And, as this thread is about "unjustly" killing civilians by the Royal Marines, we avoid more of these incidents by pulling out.

No this thread about about Royal Marines being accused of killing insurgents, the guy they are accused of killing was a wounded enemy soldier who was engaged in a firefight with them not an innocent civilian!

 

[Makalakumu]

No this thread about about Royal Marines being accused of killing insurgents, the guy they are accused of killing was a wounded enemy soldier who was engaged in a firefight with them not an innocent civilian!

So, anyone who shoots back at an aggressor is an "enemy soldier"? That's ridiculous. I don't think NATO know who the "bad guys" are anymore. They've aggressed against so many people and turning the population against them. Here is an example of a simple moral principle in regards to self defense, If I pick a fight with you, you defend yourself, and I kill you, is it morally justifiable for me to call you my "enemy" and walk away? If a man initiates force in response to NATO's aggression, in response to the constant terror of living with drones flying overhead, night raids, and family members dying unjustly, that man is justified in taking up arms. If NATO invaded Texas and did the same damn things, you'd have cowboys doing what any red blooded man has a moral right to do.

That said, I'm not willing to overlook the broader context in favor of arguing about the minutiae of a convoluted system of engagement. Even when NATO soldiers follow the rules, they're still committing an evil act. The only reason NATO has the rules in the first place is so they can pretend it's justifiable. "Enemy" is simply a convenient label that has nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong.

 

[arnisador]

It's a whole new world--the WWII notion of uniformed armies lined up on opposite sides is gone and the rules of war just don't cover something like this well. As with the death of LT Mike Murphy, not being able to shoot at will causes deaths, yet shooting noncombatants is hard to justify and counterproductive w.r.t. winning over the population.

Still, if these soldiers are put on trial, then that's the system at work--an inquiry and a judgment.

 

[Tez3]

So, anyone who shoots back at an aggressor is an "enemy soldier"? That's ridiculous. I don't think NATO know who the "bad guys" are anymore. They've aggressed against so many people and turning the population against them. Here is an example of a simple moral principle in regards to self defense, If I pick a fight with you, you defend yourself, and I kill you, is it morally justifiable for me to call you my "enemy" and walk away? If a man initiates force in response to NATO's aggression, in response to the constant terror of living with drones flying overhead, night raids, and family members dying unjustly, that man is justified in taking up arms. If NATO invaded Texas and did the same damn things, you'd have cowboys doing what any red blooded man has a moral right to do.

That said, I'm not willing to overlook the broader context in favor of arguing about the minutiae of a convoluted system of engagement. Even when NATO soldiers follow the rules, they're still committing an evil act. The only reason NATO has the rules in the first place is so they can pretend it's justifiable. "Enemy" is simply a convenient label that has nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong.

Ah you are one of those you assumes our service personnel are the ones who shoot first? Strange that because the rules of engagement state that they can only shoot back not initiate the firefight.
To be honest I don't give a flying f*** about the politics, I care only for the guys who do their best in difficult circumstances, to serve their country. Now their country may be wrong, the polticians may be all sorts of bastards by by god our servicemen deserve every bit of support they can get. The fact that our service people put their lives on the line in the past means you can spout as much rhetoric as you like, don't call people who are willing to lay down their lives for their country evil. I know one of the Royals arrested, as do a lot of Americans who are into MMA and I can assure you that these Marines are every bit as honourable as you could want a man to be. Perhaps you could look at the Afghans who are willing to blow up a school because they know the British soldiers will come and help leaving them open to ambush, look at the afhgans who throw acid into school girls faces, look at the Afghans who kill each other in what is basically drug gang warfare. Look at the girls who are raped and married off to old men, the girls beaten to death, so the people are scared, tought **** perhaps they could try acting as civilised people should then they wouldn't be 'invaded' for harbouring terrorists...how soon you forgot 9/11 and it's your own people too...

the enemy? It's ignorance, bigotry, misogny, child abuse and hatred, it's not Royal Marines.

this lovel girl you are saying is evil, I shall pass your thoughts to her parents shall I at her funeral?




Corporal Channing Day
Corporal Channing Amanda Day deployed to Afghanistan on 2 October 2012 as a Combat Medical Technician Class One with the United Kingdom Medical Group. She was based at Patrol Base One in the Nahr-e Saraj District of Helmand Province, Afghanistan, where she provided medical support to 40 Commando Royal Marines.
Corporal Channing Day was born in Swindon, Wiltshire on 12 March 1987. She grew up in Newtownards, County Down before joining the Army in 2005. Following basic training she undertook specialist training as a Combat Medical Technician. In June 2007 she successfully passed her Class One Combat Medical Technician course. In January 2012 she was posted to 3 Medical Regiment and joined 63 (Force Support) Squadron, based in Preston, and in the build up to Operation HERRICK 17 was selected to support 40 Commando Royal Marines as part of Transition Support Unit Nahr-e Saraj.
Corporal Day was a popular and well respected member of both 3 Medical Regiment, and Transition Support Unit Nahr-e Saraj. A veteran of previous Iraq and Afghanistan deployments, she was looked up to, especially by more junior soldiers in her Squadron, as a mature voice of experience and good advice.
Corporal Day clearly displayed the potential to go far within the Army. Her diligence, her loyalty to friends and comrades and the high opinion in which she was held by all ranks made her a natural medical leader. Her courage, selflessness and commitment in adversity embodied the ethos of the combat medic, and will be long remembered by all those who had the honour to serve with her.
Corporal Day is survived by her parents, Leslie and Rosemary Day, her sisters, Lauren and Laken, and brother Aaron. She was 25 years old.
The family of Corporal Day paid this tribute:

"Channing was bubbly, sporty, beautiful and lived her life for the Army. She has died doing what she lived for and in the life that she loved. She will be remembered by all who knew her as a wonderful girl who never stopped smiling and who had an infectious laugh.
"Channing played football for Northern Ireland as well as ice hockey and also gained her qualification as a ski instructor through the Army. She was also the Northern Ireland Gymnastics Pairs Champion. A girl who lived her life to the full without ever giving up on her dreams.
"She was a fabulous daughter, sister, granddaughter, cousin, niece and friend. She will be so sadly missed by all."
​

Lieutenant Colonel Phillip de Rouffignac, Commanding Officer, 3 Medical Regiment said:

"Corporal Channing Day was a star for the future. Although only 25, she had recently been promoted to Corporal, and her current operational experience in Iraq and Afghanistan made her a natural choice for the demanding role she was undertaking in support of 40 Commando Royal Marines. Diligent in every respect of her preparation, she had worked hard all the way through the build-up training and led by example in all that she did.
"Hugely popular with her friends in Preston, Catterick and in Afghanistan, Corporal Channing Day made the most of everything and had lived a lifetime in a short time. An Army footballer, she was a real team player in every sense. Corporal Day will be sorely missed, and the thoughts of all our Regiment are with her family and friends at this difficult time."
​

Lieutenant Colonel Matt Jackson, Commanding Officer, 40 Commando, Royal Marines, said:

"Corporal Channing Day had clearly made a positive impact on Charlie Company Royal Marines and is spoken about with huge warmth and affection; she was an inspiration and example to all whom she met. Throughout her short time with 40 Commando Royal Marines she endeared herself to all that she worked alongside. Enthusiastic, popular and professional it was clear that she really was one of those rare people who could lighten the mood regardless of the situation. Highly competent she gave Charlie Company the confidence to patrol across a dangerous area knowing that she would be there to care for them if they fell - she was devoted to helping others.
"The loss of such an exceptional talent has come as a tragic blow and our thoughts at this time are with her Squadron in the Royal Army Medical Corps and especially her family to whom we offer our sincere and heartfelt condolences at this exceptionally difficult time."
​

"Corporal Channing Day had clearly made a positive impact on Charlie Company Royal Marines and is spoken about with huge warmth and affection; she was an inspiration and example to all whom she met." Lieutenant Colonel Matt Jackson


Major Paul Sandle RAMC, Officer Commanding, Close Support (Task Force Helmand) Medical Squadron, 3 Medical Regiment, said:

"Corporal Channing Day joined Close Support (Task Force Helmand) Medical Squadron from 63 (Force Support) Squadron when 3 Medical Regiment re-structured into its Operation HERRICK 17 configuration in early 2012. Channing was a very experienced Combat Medical Technician who had already served operational tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.
"Channing had recently been promoted to the rank of Corporal and was enjoying the opportunity to lead the junior medics of 3/5 Troop who were working alongside 40 Commando Royal Marines as part of Transition Support Unit Nahr-e Seraj. Channing's strong character, good nature and unique sense of humour were invaluable in contributing to the efforts of the Squadron. She was never one to shy away from a challenge, and would fully immerse herself in the task at hand, fully embracing the role of a close support medic.
"Channing was a dedicated and selfless medic who put the needs of others before her own. She will be greatly missed and our sympathy goes out to her family and friends."
​

Lieutenant Charlie Tibbitts RAMC, 3/5 Troop Commander, Close Support (Task Force Helmand) Medical Squadron, 3 Medical Regiment, said:

"Corporal Channing Day joined 3 Medical Regiment early in 2012 and immediately made an impact with her outgoing personality, her professionalism and dedication to her job. Aside from being a thoroughly professional soldier, Channing was a highly popular member of the Squadron who was always happiest with her friends whether out in town or on the training area.
"When informed that she would be deploying to Afghanistan for the second time in as many years, Channing looked forward to the chance to deploy forward in a close support role with 40 Commando Royal Marines. She was not the sort of person to take a back seat and was always keen to go out on patrol and engage with the Company she was attached to. As well as being a keen and professional soldier, Channing was an excellent medic who was dedicated to attending to the needs of others and always put her patient's needs and those of others before her own.
"Back in barracks Channing was at the heart of all social activities and her presence had the ability to immediately lift the spirits of those around her.
"Channing's passing will be hard on her Squadron and amongst the wider Royal Army Medical Corps community as well as those that she has served alongside both in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is by remembering her warm and friendly nature and her determination to do the best for those she served alongside that her memory will be best honoured."
​

Warrant Officer Class 2 (Squadron Sergeant Major) Barry Lewin RAMC, Squadron Sergeant Major, Close Support (Task Force Helmand) Medical Squadron, 3 Medical Regiment, said:

"Corporal Channing Day deployed with the Close Support Medical Squadron from her Troop based in Preston, and immersed herself in pre-deployment training. She deployed on Operation HERRICK 17 in support of the 40 Commando, Royal Marines in the Close Support Role and fully embedded herself within Transition Support Unit Nahr-e Seraj.
"Being a Class One Combat Medical Technician, Channing was responsible for the delivery of both Primary and Pre Hospital Care to those that she supported, a job at which she excelled. Both her military and medical skills were without question excellent, and being a very capable Junior Non-Commissioned Officer she was able to take to this task with great ease. As a medic, her patients and casualties always came first.
"She was a very much loved member of her troop. As a chatty and bubbly individual she always had a smile on her face, and was always on hand for the younger members of her Troop if they needed guidance or advice.
"Her death is a great loss to her deployed squadron, parent squadron, the Regiment and the wider Royal Army Medical Corps. Our thoughts are with those she loved and left behind."
​

Sergeant Karl Hinton RAMC, Troop SNCO Combat Medical Technician, Force Support Medical Squadron, 3 Medical Regiment, said:

"Channing Day was taken away from us today, God bless her, a quirky Northern Irish girl who loved to play mother hen to the younger medics. Channing was a great medic and deeply cared about the lads' welfare and well-being no matter who she was attached to. She was a perfect example of the ethos of the Royal Army Medical Corps. Channing will be greatly missed and I had the honour of being her Troop Sergeant. In my eyes she is a true hero, giving her own life to help injured comrades; I will never forget her nor will any of her colleagues. My heart goes out to her family especially her Mum who she had a special bond with. Channing Day, a true legend, we will never forget."
​

Corporal Kelly Pope RAMC, Combat Medical Technician, Force Support Medical Squadron, 3 Medical Regiment, said:

"Channing, for once I am lost for words, the loss that we are all feeling is unbearable, I am proud to have served with you my fellow Corporal, my friend, my confidante. 'IN ARDUIS FIDELIS'."
​

Lance Corporal Grace McLeod RAMC, Combat Medical Technician, Force Support Medical Squadron, 3 Medical Regiment, said:

"Channing... words cannot begin to describe how we are feeling right now. Our condolences go out to your nearest and dearest; we have lost a dear friend and colleague and what I would call a family member. Going to have to find a new gym and cinema buddy now, and I miss our little nights in my room drinking my famous cups of tea! We are having a massive party when we get back to the UK but gutted it's in such devastating circumstances. I am missing you so much right now and I love you to pieces. Rest in peace, Gorgeous, Grace."
​

Private Bethany Gilford RAMC, Combat Medical Technician, Force Support Medical Squadron, 3 Medical Regiment, said:

"Meeting you, Channing, has set the bar for any friendship I will ever have; you will always be a true and perfect friend. I know that I can vouch for anyone who has ever had the honour of meeting you that you have touched all of our hearts deeply. You warmed everyone with your presence and always had a smile which could only be returned warmly. Never forgotten and always in my heart. All my love, Bethany."


Such people are just trying to make a differnce, she treated the Afghan women and children who would not have been treated otherwise, her and the other NATO troops aren't the evil, look to your politicians, look to the women hating men of Afghanisatn, look to those who hate, don't look at the serive people who love their countries and do what others are afraid to.
​

 

[Makalakumu]

Total emotive rubbish, completely disconnected from reality. Quit trying to justify this.

Here's my advice, for what it's worth. Admit you have been lied to. Admit that what you are doing is wrong. Quit serving evil.

This is a question of moral courage.

 

[Tez3]

I nailed my colours to the mast, I support the troops, I do not support the governments or the politicians who start the wars, I support the people who stop the wars..the troops. I am emotional because I care, I don't sit in an ivory tower preaching, I care very much and do what I can to support our service men and women.

Keep your cold hearted rhetoric, it's no use when the bullets are flying. You can be as smug and self righteous as you like but you are no better than anyone else.

I expect like many you imagine that Afghanistan and it's people are just like Americans or europeans, well, they aren't, they are still in the Middle Ages, they treat women and girls appallingly, place no value on anyone's life, tribes feud with tribes, animals are treated appallingly, they find it quite amusing to cut off dog's legs, you will find some of the most horrendous cruelty in Afghanistan. Does this mean it should have been invaded? No, it doesn't, but I and a good many people aren't supporting the invasion, we support the troops, yep those people you pour hatred on. Who are you to judge the troops? Judge your politicians, judge your presidents but not the troops who are actually trying at the expense of their lives to do something for a people who on the whole are actually grateful for the efforts made on their behalf. No they don't want the invaders there but they do want a strong army and police force which is what NATO is building there. They want the schools and hospitials which are being built by the troops. I'm not and never have justified the invasion but I won't shut up in my support for the troops..yours as well seeing as you despise them... theirs no lack of morale courage there, the lack of morale courage is when you preach but do ni=othing, the troops are makeing the best of a bad job while trying to make a difference, that diffierence btw wasn't on our governments agenda, the troops themselves took it upon themselves to build schools and clinics, to take medics out to villages and to befriend villages, it wasn't government policy. A lot of the kit to stock the schools and clinics was fund raised for and collected here in the UK. And you despise the military... you see only the evil not those who actually fight that evil.

Moral courage? don't make me laugh...the average soldier has more in their little finger than any politicians has in their entire body, put the blame where it lies not on the service personnel. Try some honest emotion too.

 

[Tez3]

 

[Makalakumu]

I've made the hard decisions already. Quit serving evil and you can do good. Don't make excuses. It's simple and it's one of the most difficult decisions you can make.