cutting punch

[KPM]

Meaning the "excluding/including" or "whipping" punches that were brought up. They are not part of WSLVT.

Ok. Let me explain it again since your are so damn obtuse that you can't seem to follow a logical progression in a conversation.

1. You mentioned the use of the elbow in Ip Man Wing Chun branches.
2. I agreed with you that the elbow idea was not as central to other Ip Man lineages and other versions of Wing Chun as it appeared to be to WSLVT from your explanations, that is wasn't "universal".
3. I provided a caveat though and said that I thought the one area that most Wing Chun had (even outside of Ip Man lineages) that used a similar if not the same kind of elbow idea was when doing a "cutting" or "excluding" punch.
4. I explained how the punch was performed and how it used the elbow. But that wasn't good enough. So you remembered my video example (which I appreciate) and posted it. I once again explained what was happening in the video, but for some reason you still didn't think the elbow was being used. You never really explained why. You never really described how WSLVT would do it differently. And it seemed rather silly that after I described my understanding of how the elbow was being used and you can clearly see me doing what I explained in the video.....you could still deny that there was any elbow used.
5. Nobody Important joined the conversation by saying that his version of Wing Chun also did what I showed in my video....backing up my assertion that this way of punch is indeed found in many different Wing Chun versions.
6. You then proceeded to hound NI about details of what he was saying in an attempt to prove him wrong.
7. On the other thread you act clueless when I comment on the punch I had been talking about by saying "what punch?".....after you had created this entire thread with that punch as the title!!!
8. That thread had drifted off to other conversations about elbows and other versions of Wing Chun, etc. But the exchanges that you and I and Nobody Important were having were directly related to the punch I showed in my video.
9. I will state again as I have stated in the past.....if you would simply explain how what you do is different from everyone else in a non-confrontational and friendly way rather than being so darn evasive, refusing to answer questions....refusing to elaborate....and baiting others to get responses......these threads would be SO much more productive!!!!

 

[LFJ]

How do you throw a punch at someone's face? The head is the high level, chest middle and abdomen lower.

Right, so, when an opponent's arm is above yours, and you want to punch them in the face, does your elbow not rise to wedge them out?

Quite like what's shown in the videos at the start of this thread, but understood not to be chasing the arm.

How do you throw a punch elbow first? Sounds like some Jerry's Kids punching.

I don't. Where are you getting this idea?

 

[LFJ]

for some reason you still didn't think the elbow was being used. You never really explained why.

I did explain. It's because your elbow is following your wrist along an outside line to the target. You're using your elbow to drive the punch perhaps, but I repeatedly stated that I wasn't talking about elbow force.

if you would simply explain how what you do is different from everyone else

Excluding or whipping punches aren't a part of what I do.

 

[Nobody Important]

Right, so, when an opponent's arm is above yours, and you want to punch them in the face, does your elbow not rise to wedge them out?

Quite like what's shown in the videos at the start of this thread, but understood not to be chasing the arm.



I don't. Where are you getting this idea?

Do you have Biu Sau? If so, outside of hand formation, is it performed any differently than a straight punch? If not can you use Biu Sau under the opponents arm? If so, in generic definition it is inside the gate.

There is no rise of the elbow. The entire arm is projected to the high level (head). Forward pressure, wrist at highest point shoulder lowest on line of attack. All 3 joints move in unison & do not wander (flare) from line of attack. No sinking, no rising, bobbing or weaving. Angle of arm & a simple pivot away from incoming force creates the wedge that drives his arm upward.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We train elbow control in SNT. It never flares like this.

Okay, so one thing it _isn't_ is "flaring". So what _is_ it?


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Comparison of what? KPM was the only one talking about any particular technique.

You haven't explained how your gate punch is supposed to work without change from the inside gate. The guys in the first couple videos here have to raise their arms up to continue wedging the opponent's arm out. You said yours doesn't change.

You also said it can be done with other punches besides a straight. Like what, a hook, an uppercut, an overhand? It's really unclear what you're talking about.

I don't do what you and KPM have shown/described, so I don't know what you want from me.

What he said is that this isn't a constructed effect. They don't "do it" it happens as a result of the punch. If the punch wouldn't intercept properly, they still punch, I presume, and do something else to control the attack.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

 

[LFJ]

There is no rise of the elbow. The entire arm is projected to the high level (head). Forward pressure, wrist at highest point shoulder lowest on line of attack.

So, your elbow is above your shoulder, but doesn't rise to get there. You must have a very strange guard.

All 3 joints move in unison & do not wander from line of attack. No sinking, no rising, bobbing or weaving, just a simple pivot away from incoming force.

Like 1:10 here? The elbow is clearly rising, isn't it?

 

[KPM]

I don't. Where are you getting this idea?

Again, another example of being evasive and not answering questions. And an example of being somewhat obtuse. You know very well where he got that idea because it has been commented upon several times now. But you have never explained yourself.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Led by the wrist means directed by the wrist.

The elbow is following your wrist. So, wrist-led.

So, you have a punch that is led by the elbow? That's called an elbow strike, not a punch.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

 

[LFJ]

So, you have a punch that is led by the elbow? That's called an elbow strike, not a punch.

Why would you think something so stupid?

 

[KPM]

What he said is that this isn't a constructed effect. They don't "do it" it happens as a result of the punch. If the punch wouldn't intercept properly, they still punch, I presume, and do something else to control the attack.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

Funny how a guy that knows nothing about Wing Chun can follow what has been said, but someone that claims to be an expert can't!

 

[LFJ]

Funny how a guy that knows nothing about Wing Chun can follow what has been said, but someone that claims to be an expert can't!

I have no problem understanding how it's supposed to be automatic.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why would you think something so stupid?

From your own silly comment that a punch led by the wrist (by definition, every punch) lacks these vague and oh-so-vital "elbow ideas".


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

 

[guy b]

From your own silly comment that a punch led by the wrist (by definition, every punch) lacks these vague and oh-so-vital "elbow ideas".


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

Think again

 

[Nobody Important]

So, your elbow is above your shoulder, but doesn't rise to get there. You must have a very strange guard.



Like 1:10 here? The elbow is clearly rising, isn't it?

You're desperation to prove yourself "correct" through weak attempts at childish gotcha moments is ridiculous.

If the arm isn't at an angle capable of wedging the opponents arm up as forward pressure is applied it wouldn't work. It is the entire arm, not just the elbow. The line of attack is straight from shoulder to target.

And don't go telling me that you don't raise the arm in the same manner in WSL VT, because It can clearly be seen in any PB clip. You wouldn't be able to punch a taller person in the face without doing so.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Funny how a guy that knows nothing about Wing Chun can follow what has been said, but someone that claims to be an expert can't!

This is a concept I teach in NGA. Many standing-grappling arts get flack about the complexity of techniques because people think we construct them. We don't. We defend with basic moves and follow those up with something that fits where the force is moving and the body positions. Same concept here, as I see it. NI punches, and uses a structure that has the potential to exclude/cut an incoming punch. If it does, it is now called a "gate punch". If it doesn't, well that wasn't the primary purpose of that punch, to begin with, just a secondary effect.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

 

[LFJ]

If the arm isn't at an angle capable of wedging the opponents arm up as forward pressure is applied it wouldn't work. It is the entire arm, not just the elbow. The line of attack is straight from shoulder to target.

So, you're now saying you do in fact raise the elbow as part of the whole arm rising...

Why did you deny it earlier?

 

[Nobody Important]

This is a concept I teach in NGA. Many standing-grappling arts get flack about the complexity of techniques because people think we construct them. We don't. We defend with basic moves and follow those up with something that fits where the force is moving and the body positions. Same concept here, as I see it. NI punches, and uses a structure that has the potential to exclude/cut an incoming punch. If it does, it is now called a "gate punch". If it doesn't, well that wasn't the primary purpose of that punch, to begin with, just a secondary effect.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

Ding, ding, ding we have a winner.

 

[LFJ]

NI punches, and uses a structure that has the potential to exclude/cut an incoming punch.

And it requires a pivot and rising elbow while on the inside in order to work. It's a workaround.

 

[Nobody Important]

So, you're now saying you do in fact raise the elbow as part of the whole arm rising...

Why did you deny it earlier?

I denied flaring the elbow. I denied deliberately trying to accomplish a gate punch. You and I clearly have different ideas about raising an elbow. I view the movement as one coordinated movement of three joints. You are fixated on the elbow. It is physically impossible to strike high without the elbow being inline with the wrist and shoulder. It is a hinge joint and lifts when extended.

All this back & forth could be cleared up if you would simply answer the question, What is your "elbow ideas".