Credentials and exposure - Was: Is MT friendly as in the TIN?

[KennethKu]

....Now... here is the hypethetical question:
I claim to be a certain rank. I give you the organization and an aproximate date. I can present you with a certificate. This certificate is authentic. The organization claims to have no record of my rank. Its not a 'didnt pay' or 'was dropped'. They simply have no record. All signers (witnesses as well as the GM who did sign it) are either dead or unlocatable.

Am I legit or not?

First of all, that would be a solvable problem. In a typical organization, there is an established procedure for rank testing. Given your rank, time, place of test, names of the testers, names of your instructors, it is virtually impossible that your rank certificate existed in a vaccum. Some credible person associated with the organization would have known about your existence and your involvement with the organization. Now, needless to say that may require some resources to to the investigative work.

The hypothetical situation is extremely rare. It may be possible to have paperwork snafu. But to also have all the people involved also "not available"? How convenient? Wouldn't you say?

 

[KennethKu]

ARk

You are the wrong person to comment on the validity and authentication of rank, or membership in the right organization, in light of your claims of ranks in martial arts and memberships in a laundry list of organizations with leadership in one that turns out to be an outright fraudulent organization run by a convicted liar.

Furthermore, your diehard, but dead wrong, assumption that legitimate federations operate in the same corrupt mode of fraudulent fronts, made productive discussion unattenable. Sir, it would be helpful to educate yourself in how credible organizations run their operations.

Until then, I do not wish to engage in further discussion with you on this matter.

 

[tshadowchaser]

We have a section called bad budo please keep comments such as the one above to that section.
Repeated flamming of a person and his/her system,credentials ,etc. proves nothing, it only starts more flame wars.
The constant demeaning of those you do not agree with is NOT what this forum is about

 

[A.R.K.]

tshadowchaser,

I am not particuarly bothered by Ken's cracks. He has never researched into my background, therefore any opinion he may have is based soley on personal biased and not any fact. Unsupported statements are easily seen for what they are. But thank you. :asian:

In regards to organizations, which this thread has drifted to, a couple of comments. For starters, I have no leadership role in the organization that Ken refers to. It is a fraternal organization only. State or country 'reps' are merely window dressing and don't actually carry any type of authority or special privelege. There is no 'authority' that needs to be carried. It is merely a big clubhouse in which members fellowship, network or have information exchanges. That pretty much wraps it up. Any further comments can be addressed in the appropriate section as you have directed.

In regards to the 'legitimate' federations that Ken refers to, we simply are in disagreement. Based on the reasons I have listed previously, I can't understand why he would continue to view them as credible or legitimate. But he is entitled to his opinion.

I see organizations, any organizations as a nicety but not a necessity. I think Yiliquan 1 hit the nail on the head in his previous post on the topic. How can an organization that has no direct knowledge of you personally lend more credibility than an actual person that knows and trains you personally?

If the organization is free I would feel better about their motives not being $ motivated. Or if their $ didn't go into their own pockets [above operating costs]I could also see their motives being more 'pure'. But in my opinion the majority of them are 'pay us and we'll recognize you'.

With respect
:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
We have a section called bad budo please keep comments such as the one above to that section.
Repeated flamming of a person and his/her system,credentials ,etc. proves nothing, it only starts more flame wars.
The constant demeaning of those you do not agree with is NOT what this forum is about

ARK asked for elaboration to my previous statement regarding him being the wrong messenger regarding some issues concerning rank. I was merely stating the accurate facts in answering him and to further explain to him the basis why I find further discussion with him regarding this matter cannot be productive. One cannot engage in productive discussion with someone who insists on substituting his philosophy for reality. Rank is not arbitrary. One cannot "arbitrary" get ranks in legitimate organizations. It is absurd to state otherwise.

 

[A.R.K.]

Ken,

Again we are in disagreement about this issue. I feel your accurate facts are merely personal opinions that lack validity.

One can arbitrarily gain rank in your legitimate organizations, this has already been amply demonstrated. Ignoring the facts as presented will not make them untrue.

I simply do not see you as qualified to hold the opinions that you state. However, we can simply agree to disagree on this topic. There will be a host of other topics to discuss in other threads. Perhaps we will agree on some of them.

I am available through email or PM if you ever wish to discuss the topic further.

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
He has never researched into my background, therefore any opinion he may have is based soley on personal biased and not any fact. Unsupported statements are easily seen for what they are.

I have "researched" your claims so has Martial Aritist...............

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Ken,

Again we are in disagreement about this issue. I feel your accurate facts are merely personal opinions that lack validity.

One can arbitrarily gain rank in your legitimate organizations, this has already been amply demonstrated. Ignoring the facts as presented will not make them untrue.

I simply do not see you as qualified to hold the opinions that you state. However, we can simply agree to disagree on this topic. There will be a host of other topics to discuss in other threads. Perhaps we will agree on some of them.

I am available through email or PM if you ever wish to discuss the topic further.

:asian:

Every large organization has deadwood that has fallen through the crack. In every organization, there would be someone who has gotten his rank under questionable circumstances. Kukkiwon is neither the most reputable TKD federation nor the exclusive representative authority of all legitimate TKD. It has more than its share of scandals. However, to simply assume that all ranks in all organizations have been arbitrarily acquired, is about as accurate as assuming all cops are no different from thieves simply because some cops have been sent to prison for thief.

 

[A.R.K.]

I have "researched" your claims so has Martial Aritist...............

The results of which were that, in your opinion, I MUST be a member of an Okinawin organization that claims to govern a style indigenous to China. An organization that you have refused to name or provide information about. It is just as well however, I don't need wall candy from this organization to validate my training. I have quite enough as it is. Any more and I'll need to get a third cardboard box in the bottom of my guest room closet. :rofl:

Since I don't actively teach this style any longer it's a mute point anyway. I will continue to concentrate my efforts on what I now teach

Ken,

Every large organization has deadwood that has fallen through the crack. In every organization, there would be someone who has gotten his rank under questionable circumstances. Kukkiwon is neither the most reputable TKD federation nor the exclusive representative authority of all legitimate TKD. It has more than its share of scandals.

Now your starting to understand what I've been saying for several months. Rank is arbitrary...ability is not.

However, to simply assume that all ranks in all organizations have been arbitrarily acquired

Whoops, you've slipped off the page here I never stated ALL ranks are arbitrarily acquired, those are your words. I stated that rank, in and of itself, is arbitrary. There are no set standards even within the same discipline.

Case in point, you and I take TKD beginning at the same time. You have a Monty Hall instructor the gives away whats behind curtain #1 for the right price. In short, you train for a year and a half and pay the appropriate high fee and get promoted to 1st Dan. He is at 4th Dan in the Kukkiwon and signs off so now your a 1st Dan with the Kukkiwon all nice and official.

I have a hardcore instructor that demands a high standard and insn't interested in frivolity. It takes six hard years of sweat, blood and tears to finally obtain my 1st Dan. My Instructor is also 4th Dan and signs off so now I have my 1st Dan in the Kukkiwon.

We're both 1st Dans, in fact you might be higher by the time I make first because of easy standards in your school.

Same style...but the rank is arbitrary because of differing standards. Who is MORE legite in their Dan ranking with the Kukkiwon Ken, you or me in the above example?

Therein lies the whole problem of the whole issue.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

The rank issue is off-topic. Please take it elsewhere.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok, I tried to find a place to split this...couldnt really....

am going to rename the topic...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Friendly reminder, leave the personal issues on the side...

I think a good point was made. Regardless of an equality in rank, or the source of a cert, everyones skills are different. Any 2 1st degrees even within the same organization may in fact be at different levels due toi differences in the grading.

I know a high ranking Kenpoist who once mentioned that another high ranked kenpoist wouldnt even qualify for 1st degree in their school. Note - both recieved their original black belts from Ed Parker himself.

Another good issue is how difficult it is in verifying anything. What good is it to call a group I'm not associated with? In the example I gave above, I was referencing real-world issues in the Modern Arnis world. With the original 'parent' organization splintered and spun off into multiple organizations, who do you call? Theres 2 IMAFs, which one? Even calling both may result in no information beyond "We dont have him listed".


In regards to exposing frauds, if a person indicates they hold rank in an -acknowledged- certificate mill, mention it. If a person mentions holding rank in the military, check it and if found to be fraudulent, post it. If no info is found, ask for verification. If a person claims lineage, and you can confirm or dispute it, post it. If a person is flashing a cert that they claim indicates a high rank, but when translated says "Eat at Midori's Sushi Bar" then please, post the translation...we need a laugh.

The key here is to post it -once-, not a billion times. Post in the right place, and politely post a reference in the apropriate forum. Not beat it to death, not work yourself into a tizzy, and not piss off the nice moderators here. We want the same thing as you do. Quality information by quality people. We can not arbitrarily boot someone without cause. Being a fraud is not just cause. Being a jerk is. Ashida Kim is welcome to sign up and post...as long as he can follow our rules. Build your case in a positive way, let the info speak for itself, and let the frauds go ape-****. We will see the reports and eventually find enough cause to show them the door.

Rather than post tons of 'buster' posts, and 'BS' posts, go over history and techniques. Post seminar info, and results. Biographies on the masters. People bemoan the lack of info in certain areas, yet they are the ones with the information. We can't (as much as we might like to in a few cases) put folks on the rack. Its up to you to turn this into a treasure trove of information, or a cesspool of filth. Personally, I hope it'll be the treasure trove.

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
The results of which were that, in your opinion, I MUST be a member of an Okinawin organization

Nope. Never said you “MUST”….just proved you "DIDN'T" belong to one connected to Okinawa.

Originally posted by A.R.K.
that claims to govern a style indigenous to China.

And those claims to a Chinese connection have yet to be corroborated

Originally posted by A.R.K.
An organization that you have refused to name or provide information about.

Since you were so generous with your information I thought I would be equally generous.

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Any more and I'll need to get a third cardboard box in the bottom of my guest room closet. :rofl:

 

[tshadowchaser]

When I first came to Martialtalk, about 90 percent of the posts where asking or the giveing of information. 5% where friendly jabs at each other and another 5% a joke of some kind. We all got along (for the most part) and enjoyed shareing information and learning about the other guy and his organisation.
Today I see more post in the humor section and locker room than anywhere else. Nothing wrong with that the information being passed is where it belongs. These areas didn"t even exsist back when I started .
As we have grown larger the influx of those of "questionable" rank has come into site. Ok as has been said by Kaith If you can prove or disprove someone do it in the appropreate area ONCE and then let it be.
For those that feel they must continualy post and bait someone just because they disagree with a point of view "Grow up"
If a point of view was asked for accept what people say as their point of view. We all agree to disagree at times. Each of us that posts sees things from our own point of view because of many factors including, but not limited to:
place of origin and present area we live in
our time in our art and our time in the arts
our age, education, and family status
what type of martial art we study (verry hard tyo soft,external to internal)
How our instructors did things


Personaly I would like to see more informative posts on the history of various arts and hear stories of the people who made these arts what they are today

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I agree.

I'd like to see more information and less attacks, and less "I gotta secret" games played.

I don't know what the solution is. I've considered everything from extreme rules enforcement, to locking the board down in various ways. Unfortunately, most of those radically change what my intent for this place is.


Do we have frauds both innocent and purposeful? Yes.
Can we completely police em out? Nope.

Can we focus on the histories, techniques, etc? Thats up to everyone.

:asian:

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser
When I first came to Martialtalk, about 90 percent of the posts where asking or the giveing of information. 5% where friendly jabs at each other and another 5% a joke of some kind. We all got along (for the most part) and enjoyed shareing information and learning about the other guy and his organisation.
Today I see more post in the humor section and locker room than anywhere else. Nothing wrong with that the information being passed is where it belongs. These areas didn"t even exsist back when I started.

Personaly I would like to see more informative posts on the history of various arts and hear stories of the people who made these arts what they are today

I agree completely with this post. I haven't been posting much lately, well the last 4 months or so to be exact, partly because I quit my job as a network engin and don't have the opportunity to sit behind a computer 8 hours a day, but also partly because I have been less interested in posting the threads I'm reading. They seem to be less information and more speculation. I love discussing and learning, even debating here and there, but I also like it kept friendly. This is probably the most friendly of all the MA forums, but I have noticed a change in the direction of it. LEts set it back in the direction it was in.

7sm

 

[A.R.K.]

Kaith,

I'd like to see more information and less attacks,

So would I. But it is difficult when people like Robert continually have to come in with unwarrented remarks. Such as...

I have "researched" your claims so has Martial Aritist...............

...no, he really hasn't researched my background. But the comment is meant to color opinion without basis or substance. I have publically offered to share all with him via email in another thread, his only response was to email me obsenities.

Nope. Never said you “MUST”….just proved you "DIDN'T" belong to one connected to Okinawa.

Robert has proven that I don't belong to an organization....that I never claimed to be a member of :shrug: So what value does it hold to continually bring it up in thread after thread? I don't even know if this organization even exists. The only response I get via email from Robert is more obsenities and insults

So I agree with 7starmantis..

I love discussing and learning, even debating here and there, but I also like it kept friendly. This is probably the most friendly of all the MA forums, but I have noticed a change in the direction of it. LEts set it back in the direction it was in.

It would be nice to see this. But the pointless, unsubstantiated remarks need to cease in order for this to happen. This is indeed an interesting thread with the direction it has taken. It's an irritation to see it get sidetracked by a couple of people who really haven't contributed to the topic.

My humble opinion, sorry for the rant.

Peace
:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Kaith,

I think a good point was made. Regardless of an equality in rank, or the source of a cert, everyones skills are different. Any 2 1st degrees even within the same organization may in fact be at different levels due toi differences in the grading.

Exactly. Lineage is fine in terms of the quality of instruction [maybe], Organizations are fine in terms of some type of enforcable standard [maybe] but it all boils down to what a person is actually capable of in a real world altercation. Not in competition, actual life/death altercations.

Paper is just paper with someones name on it and some colorful seals. It's nice to show other folks of the same interest, perhaps even those outside the art. But paper doesn't count for beans when the boogey man comes calling. Then it all comes down to what you can actually do. My humble opinion.

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by A.R.K.

...no, he really hasn't researched my background. But the comment is meant to color opinion without basis or substance. I have publically offered to share all with him via email in another thread, his only response was to email me obsenities.

You claimed Shuri Ryu was a style in Okinawa:

I told you there were no “Shuri Ryu” dojo in Okinawa.

You have yet to prove there are.

You used the word Soke incorrectly:

I posted a definition of the word.

You posted what a swell guy Jack Stern was and how he is so well respected:

Someone posted proof that he was a LIAR, FAKE, and a FRAUD.

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Robert has proven that I don't belong to an organization....that I never claimed to be a member of

You claimed rank in an Okinawan style then when asked never coughed up which organization or who issued the rank.
Most likely because it was issued by a “dan factory”.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I agree.

I'd like to see more information and less attacks, and less "I gotta secret" games played.

I would like to see less frauds, fakes and liars.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Can we focus on the histories, techniques, etc? Thats up to everyone.

It’s pretty hard to focus on certain histories when they are obviously “made up”.