Credentials and exposure - Was: Is MT friendly as in the TIN?

[Bob Hubbard]

A clarification:

We are not saying 'dont talk about the frauds'.

We are saying that here there is a way to do so, and a place to do so. For those e-budo veterans, use our 'Bad Budo" forum in a similar way to their 'Baffling Budo" forum, but still bound by our rules.

These are not -new- rules, but advance notice of a stricter policy enforcement of existing rules.

To use a few 'hot' examples,
If Ashida Kim signed up, and posted a 'hello' msg, I would not expect the following posts in that thread to be a major rehashing of his resume or past conduct.

If Jeff Delany signed up and posted his event schedule, I would not expect to find it turned into a flaming debate over his 'grandmaster' status.

If George Dillman signed up, and posted his latest seminar report, I would not expect it to turn into a raging debate on his NTKO.

For all of those, there is a place, and a way to do so.


Do we want the liars, frauds, fakes, trolls, criminals and other such here?
No.

But, turning every thread involving the individual into a seach for answers is not the answer.

You guys said it well "with it's popularity growing, it's bound to attract a fair share of frauds and BS artists. "

We want them exposed, but not at the cost of our 'friendlyness'.
I don't want to have to burn the village in order to save it.

yilisifu made many good points there. By stricter enforcement, we may lose a few folks. But, we may also gain some too. Those who find that threads now stay more on topic, and are more focused on the meat, rather than always wandering off to a non related tangent, or being locked due to a heated (and often times unrelated) argument.

 

[Kirk]

Just chiming in with opinion here, but I think limiting it to the
"bad budo" section ... well ... sucks. Heck, the person in question
might not even check out that section to defend his or herself.
I think it should just be limited to one thread, plus bad budo.
That way more witness it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

A note in the apropriate section could point at the more in depth discussion in the 'bad budo' area.

Other ideas are:

Person has varying claims on website:
"ok X, you claim to have the following.... We have some questions for you concerning this. We have started a thread in the bad-budo forum addressing these questions so as to not disrupt the flow of this thread. Please address them there"

Person claims to be X:
"ok Y, you claim to be X.... We have some questions for you concerning this. We have started a thread in the bad-budo forum addressing these questions so as to not disrupt the flow of this thread. Please address them there"

Person posts information that is contrary to your art, experiences, etc:
"X, You state that in ART you do Y. My experience indicates otherwise. Will you clarify how you determined that?" Or something similar. This is fine as long as the question fits the thread it is in. If not, a new thread in the appropriate forum should be started, and a link placed in the original thread.

"Hey ButtHead! Your Karate sucks and your master sucks, and, and *&^&&*&*%*%*&*%" type stuff however will win you an Aerosmith CD....by this I mean a "Permanent Vacation"

Persons coming in from other boards with a history may or may not be welcome. A good part of IF they are is how they handle themselves while here. People booted from other boards will most likely not find warm welcomes here.

We are seeking to improve both the quality and quantity of our members and their posts. Not to stifle or censor, but stear and direct. Hope that makes sence.

:asian:

 

[MountainSage]

Individual need to have the maturity to drop it. Kaith and I have had one very intense debate about the Iraq war that came to point that we were not going to change each others opinions and all revelant information had been presented, so I believe we both DROPPED IT. That is a measure of respect and maturity. There is a point when a discussion can go to far and degrade to an arguement, learn to sense that point and respect it. This is indeed part of BB training. We, on this forum must learn to be BB, not fighters. If you want to fight I am sure there are numerous other forums to lay waste to those that have a differring opinion. I'll stop there because I feel a long winded oration being to build and you and I don't have that much time or energy.

Mountain Sage

 

[clapping_tiger]

Just want to chime in and say this is one of the best forums I have found. I used to be at sherdog.com, I don't go there anymore because all it is arguing and calling each other newbie, and the same old crap each day. I don't like bullshido.com either, just about the same as sherdog. These two, along with many other forums, are filled with what I feel to be Keyboard Warriors (there are a few on those boards who try to keep the discussions going and have something worth while to say)who are just looking for arguments, not discussion. Where is the respect that most claim to have. In my opinion anytime you have a place where people from all around the world come together and discuss any topic that they are passionate about, people are going to butt heads, that is to be expected. But on the same note, anytime you post your thoughts, be prepared to have someone challenge your ideas. It’s going to happen, if you don’t like it you shouldn’t be posting then. But keep up the good work Moderators, and keep Martial Talk one of the most respectable and professionally operated MA Forum I have seen.

 

[J-kid]

Kaith are you saying that if ashida kim one of the biggest fruads by far following count date and the rest of those mystic ninjia creeps where to become a member i couldnt flame them for what they are doing to the martial arts world and i would have to put up with hearing there bs? That dosnt sound right we all know they are frauds.

 

[chufeng]

Better a "newbie" than a "wannabe," afterall, we all had to start at the same level...a no-nothing beginner...

Some stay, some don't...some stay so long that they become "has-beens"...but you know what the great Muhammed Ali (aka Cascius Clay) said about that:

"Better a has-been than a never-was!"

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Jill666]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Any questions?

No. You are very clear.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Kaith are you saying that if ashida kim one of the biggest fruads by far following count date and the rest of those mystic ninjia creeps where to become a member i couldnt flame them for what they are doing to the martial arts world and i would have to put up with hearing there bs?

Flame, no. But that doesn't mean you can't ask questions, point out facts, etc. This should be done in the Bad Budo forum. Otherwise, use the Ignore feature. You may always disagree with any advice given by a person and give your own advice.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[KennethKu]

I heard about the repeated warnings of about seriously getting rid off contributing members who "violate" the Friendly rule.

How come there isn't anything said about getting rid of FRAUD? What is the rationale of welcoming them here? I hear words about NOT welcoming fraud, but I see policy and enforcement of WELCOMING fraud to come and "launder" their schemes at our "Friendly" forum. This is not MT's intention. But that is the service MT is providing to scam artists. As long as they talk nice and be friendly, scamsters have a free run of this forum. They can simply ignore the Bad Budo section. Every scam artist knows that there are suckers bornt every second. All the scam artists need is a place to repeat their lies often enough to make the scam work.

Shouldn't there be some policies and enforcement that filter out the garbage scams? Why would MT want to be the "laundering" service for scam artists?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

You make a good point.

We would need a way to verify statements. Tracking an established lineage and ferreting out who is falsifying a cert isn't too hard when one has the time, resources and contacts to do so...provided you check with the right organization.

As an example, when I test for my black belt in Modern Arnis, calling the PI or most MA orgs will generate a false negative. You will have to contact the organization I tested under. Verifying older MABB's is much harder as in many cases, the paper trail is just not there. I believe Kelly Worden recently tried to create a 'family tree' and encountered some challenges in just that manner. I'm uncertain how he resolved it.

It becomes harder when trying to verify the 'innovators' and seperate them from the 'paper mill' and 'backyard wonders'.


I've had a number of people email n PM me ideas on just this (yourself included) that I'm still working through. Its been a hecktic week for me...but, I've almost got things in order so I can get more things moving here again. :asian:

 

[tonbo]

I think that MT is better than the alternatives, no doubt about that.

Frauds, liars, posers, etc. will be *everywhere* you turn. Look at folks like Count Dante. In the 70's, he was advertising in comic books; if he were alive today, he'd more than likely be here on the boards, pumping his own greatness. It's gonna happen.

The thing that I have seen here is that people get called on their BS. There really is no "friendly" way to do it, since if you don't blatantly state the facts and call someone on their crap, they will not get the point. It's like most bullies: asking them nicely to stop pounding your head will generally not work.

When it comes to these frauds, hey....better the fraud's ego gets a little bruising than a bunch of people pay them money to learn "real" martial arts.

As far as arguing and so on, well, it happens. Any time you open up a forum for discussion, arguments will follow. However, as has been stated before (in this thread), generally, the arguments stay pretty sane. When they get out of control, they are shut down fast.

All in all, I think MT is a great place to be. I have learned some good stuff here, and "met" a number of people that I am proud to say I have spoken with.

Keep up the good work, guys!! :asian:

Peace--

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
You make a good point.

We would need a way to verify statements. Tracking an established lineage and ferreting out who is falsifying a cert isn't too hard when one has the time, resources and contacts to do so...provided you check with the right organization.

As an example, when I test for my black belt in Modern Arnis, calling the PI or most MA orgs will generate a false negative. You will have to contact the organization I tested under. Verifying older MABB's is much harder as in many cases, the paper trail is just not there. I believe Kelly Worden recently tried to create a 'family tree' and encountered some challenges in just that manner. I'm uncertain how he resolved it.

It becomes harder when trying to verify the 'innovators' and seperate them from the 'paper mill' and 'backyard wonders'.


I've had a number of people email n PM me ideas on just this (yourself included) that I'm still working through. Its been a hecktic week for me...but, I've almost got things in order so I can get more things moving here again. :asian:

There is no question of the complexity that may evolve in this area.

I would suggest that posters qualify, or required to qualify, their info/advice as either statements of facts or simply a personal opinion.

Statements of facts are required to be substantiated with verifiable proof. These are subjected to debate and challenge, in a professional manner. Statements of opinions are basically a "take it or leave it" material. If some one posted that Chin Na can do this and this and this, that just one BS post looking for BS. While to the experienced, they know it is obviously pure BS. However, frausters tend to camouflage such BS with misleading qualifier such as, "In my 25 years work as an FBI trainer [red flag], I have used Chin Na to do this and this and this". This only serves to mislead the uninitiated. Some of us would feel obligated to jump up and wave the BS flag. If the statement was CLEARLY stated as a personal opinion, then no one would really care. Afterall, that is just XYZ's personal opinion.

Quite a lot of argument started when people presented their personal opinions as statement of facts and then resorted to," I am a so and so in ABC or I teach the SAS, IDF whatever or I am a *th dan in BS Ryu, THEREFORE what I say IS true!" This attempt to peddle personal opinions as statement of facts and using their unverified claim of credentials is responsible for a lot of fraud busting.


Not that this a magic solution. But this would at least keep the information/advice posted at MT, truthful and verifiable, while those that cannot be verified, are clearly labelled as PERSONAL OPINIONS. At least that would cut down fraudsters posting BS.

There is no way to be fraud proof, at least we can try to keep the quality of the information high.


P.S. (Note: People whine about excessive fraud busting. If there was no fraudulent claims in the first place, do you think there would be all these fraud busting activities? I hear people whine about this group of "obssessive" fraudbusters, who happen to have always contributed far more than those who complain. But I have yet to hear any of those who complain, step up to the plate and demand something be done about the fraudulent/misleading claims. Where is your sense of integrity?)

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by KennethKu
P.S. (Note: People whine about excessive fraud busting. If there was no fraudulent claims in the first place, do you think there would be all these fraud busting activities? I hear people whine about this group of "obssessive" fraudbusters, who happen to have always contributed far more than those who complain. But I have yet to hear any of those who complain, step up to the plate and demand something be done about the fraudulent/misleading claims. Where is your sense of integrity?)

If the only posts in a days time is fraud busting .. then you've
circumvented the point behind the board in the first place. Is
that acceptable to you?

Just because someone shows up here that has skill and
knowledge of an art, does not automatically make them contributers of more than beginners and intermediate MAists
who like to establish a sense of community (as much as one
can without face2face interaction), and fellowship. Plus
getting a good thread going. I'm not claiming to be one of those
ppl, but they are out there.

:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
. . .

I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your own opinion - far from it. Rather, that your opinion needn't necessarily be aired if you haven't fully explored the accuracy of it. There have been times when I had an opinion, and wanted to vent it, but thought better of it and kept it to myself until the opinion was fully formed and thought out.

. . .

Just my opinion... Sometimes just because we can do a thing, doesn't mean we should do a thing. And this, enigmatically, is offered up for digestion on many different levels...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Yiliquan1,

True, people can have opinions, yet when I stated one of my own, I was explicitly told not to have it. I was told I was wrong to express it. Hmmmm?

Also, having the priviledge of doing something (* CAN *) and then deciding not too (* Should or Should Not *). Very Nice.

Now, I just wish everyone would read this and think about it for a few. Oh Yes, I digested it and realize that I might have less heart burn not posting this, yet, I see it differently, and think it should be said again, and I hope you read it, and try to digest it yourself.

Opinions are good. Arguments / discussions are fine. If someone is wrong just because they disagree then I say that is wrong in itself.

Enjoy Life :asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk
If the only posts in a days time is fraud busting .. then you've
circumvented the point behind the board in the first place. Is
that acceptable to you?

Well put. Who'd want to join a site that looks like nothing but lineage arguments?

Luckily, most of MartialTalk has discussions going on. The various arts fora are not seeing as much of this type of thing.

Also, no one is saying that one can't comment on fraud-related issues--it's the beating a dead horse thing.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[A.R.K.]

I would like to contribute a point or two.

Statements of facts are required to be substantiated with verifiable proof.

This sounds like a very good idea on the surface. But verifiable proof might differ from individual to individual in regards to the martial arts. For example, if Mr. Smith claims to be in the military or in Law enforcement then that is a very easy thing to verify. The state/government will have the proper records, work history, certifications etc. Very cut and dry.

But the martial arts is not very cut and dry. As I've used before, if Mr. Smith is a 1st Dan in TKD thats great. But then maybe its not so great. What if Mr. Smith only has a school certificate? Yes there are such things. Does that mean he is not legitimate? What if Mr. Smith is a member of the Ildokwon but not the Kukkiwon? To some it wouldn't make a difference and to others a world of difference. To some, Mr. Smith has to be in a certain organization to be recognized. To others there are several fine TKD organizations and they would recognize a person who is recognized by any of them. And yet others worry exclusively about actual abiltiy and consider paper as a secondary consideration.

my 25 years work as an FBI trainer [red flag], I have used Chin Na to do this and this and this

I don't see this as a problem. If someone wants to know if this individual indeed was an FBI trainier, as noted above, it is a very easy matter. The problem that I have seen however, is that this type of information has been asked for with the individual giving the resourses to follow up on it. But then the requestor never follows up on the resourse yet continues to post that the individual is being elusive. That is not only unfair but dishonest.

If an individual offers resourses and the requestor doesn't follow up then that needs to be it.

And I suppose the same could go for the MA's as well. If someone requests proof of rank for example then the individual could post what he/she has. That might take the form of a school certificate or an organizational certificate. Taking into account once again that not everyone is going to be happy because there simply are no universal standards that encompass all MA's.

Some may have a school, style and organizational certificates. Some only a school. What is more valid? Could it not be both? doesn't it boil down to ability and knowledge? Of course it does. And if the induvidual has only a school/instructor certificate, does anyone know every instructor in every style/system? Some certificates, such as the Kukkiwon are very distinctive and forgeries are easy to spot. But what of individual school certificates? The poster should be judged more so on the content of their post. If Mr. Smith comes in and posts all kinds of credentials then posts comments like he's killed 20 people with his super secret death touch...well maybe he's not on the up and up.

Once a question has been asked and an answer given or resourses given then let it be done. If the answer or resourses are not to the requestors liking, well nobody can please everyone. But it is not a reason to continually hound or criticize over nit picking issues.

I give the mods/admins much credit for a big job. I've done things to add to there headache and for that they have my apology. Your house, your rules.

Cheers.
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador
Well put. Who'd want to join a site that looks like nothing but lineage arguments?

The issues brought up have never really been about “lineage” per say…..they were more about outrageous claims to rank and title. There is a difference.
In Korea, Japan and Okinawa there are organizations with there HQ’s in these countries. These HQs have some pretty high ranks in them so it seems odd that someone would claim a rank just as high or higher than someone in the HQ.
For example: The Head of Okinawan Shorin Ryu Karate Do Kyokai is Miyahara Katsuya, 9th dan.
If I say I am a 10th dan in Okinawan Shorin Ryu Karate Do Kyokai I am going to look stupid and be called a liar for sure.
The only time “lineage” was questioned was when folks said they were promoted/recognized by their peers. It’s a joke to give rank out in a style you don’t train in. Talk about an arrogant!
I don’t give ranks out in Shorin Ryu or Kyokushin or any art except the one I train in………..and I don’t even give anything higher than 1st kyu.
What is this recognizing rank nonsense???????
Who is anyone to recognize rank outside their own style?
Yiliquan1 is a friend of mine that I have trained with. He has some sort of rank above shodan in Yili….not sure what it is. Do I “recognize” his rank? I don’t see how I could since I am not sure what the criteria in his style are for ranking someone, not to mention not qualified. He could perform all the forms he knows from his system and I wouldn’t know if they were right or wrong. Do I care what rank he is? Not at all………we get together to “Rock-n-Roll” not waltz around recognizing each others rank.

When people come to my dojo and wear a colored belt I don’t care if they wear it for class. I am not going to make them run out and buy another belt.
I have had guys claim anywhere from 3rd to 7th dans come and train with me……I let them wear their belts.
Wearing a high rank belt from another Karate school can be a double edge sword in my dojo………..most of the time they can’t do what we do and look rather foolish wearing such a high rank when they have trouble with some of the more basic drills and techniques and eventually take it off and throw on a white belt………but I NEVER ask them to.

Originally posted by arnisador
Also, no one is saying that one can't comment on fraud-related issues--it's the beating a dead horse thing.

Some of those accused of “beating the dead horse” were in fact wrongly accused and it was actually the people being questioned in said issue that kept feeling persecuted for no reason that mentioned the dead issues.

 

[fringe_dweller]

A few points on different issues...

Re Bad Budo
Would it be possible to haver a sticky thread in the General MA discussions where you can post a link to the Bad Budo section if there's a thread that people should be aware of? That way those who should be recognised as frauds are still noted in General Discussion, but the threads themselves are contained to that one area and we don't have to wade through lineage arguments in order to find other important info.


Quote from Kenneth Ku

P.S. (Note: People whine about excessive fraud busting. If there was no fraudulent claims in the first place, do you think there would be all these fraud busting activities? I hear people whine about this group of "obssessive" fraudbusters, who happen to have always contributed far more than those who complain. But I have yet to hear any of those who complain, step up to the plate and demand something be done about the fraudulent/misleading claims. Where is your sense of integrity?)

End quote

I would like to think that I am not one of these people... rather someone who is asking everyone to take one or two steps back and look at the priorities of this board. Absolutely, the fraud busting must be done, and I take my hat off to those who are doing it. Having trained for only two years myself I don't think I could pick a fraud at five paces. The only comment I'm making is that if we spend 90% of our time exposing frauds, it only leaves 10% of our time for posting discussion about other things (yes this is an entirely huge exaggeration - just trying to get the point across).

Respectfully,

 

[RyuShiKan]

To be honest I am not interested in spending a majority of my time “busting frauds”, however, it just so happens that I have information that I have complied over the years on certain issues and feel obliged to share it with those that would be taken in by charlatans, liars and frauds.

These “fraud busting” threads get dragged out because the frauds, even when shown evidence of their own bogus claims or lies, don’t give up.
Why are frauds so tenacious at defending themselves? Because if they give up and go away they admit guilt by non-attendance..........or so it would seem to the other posters on the board.