Credentials and exposure - Was: Is MT friendly as in the TIN?

[Matt Stone]

I am a Senior Level 2 in the art of Yiliquan, created out of Baixingquan, Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and Baguazhang, as taught to Sifu Phillip Starr by Chen Wing-chou, and released to the public formally in 1982.

I studied with Sifu Starr from 1985 - 1987, then joined the Army. In 1990, when I got out, I went back to training, until I was called up again in 1991 for Desert Storm. From my return to civilian life a few months later until 1995 when I went back on active duty, I trained haphazardly with Sifu Tim Heuertz who, in 1998, promoted me to Senior Level 1. In 2000, Sifu Starr promoted me to Senior Level 2.

Senior Level 1 is the first level of "black belt" training in Yiliquan, so I very roughly approximate a nidan or so. However, due to the nature of our training vs. other styles, and their training against still other styles, as the content of any one style varies from any other single style, what constitutes "black belt" for one could quite certainly rank as much lower or higher in another school...

Whatever.

If I now started my own school, created what I called my "own style" with these qualifications, I would expect folks to call me out. Hell, I would call me out.

But, if anything, I go out of my way to avoid discussing my rank, since I don't think I even deserve the Level 1 I tested for a few years back... Old argument that Chufeng and I have periodically, basically I just shut up because The Old Man says I am a Level 2, and that's that...

Whatever amount of respect I earn from anyone usually comes from the fact that I'm not afraid to get smacked around, and when I get smacked around I get back up again rather than wimper in a fetal ball on the floor... That usually goes a long way.

ARK -

I "recognize" that you have years of training and study. I "recognize" that you may well have a good amount of experience and knowledge to back up your skill. Your rank doesn't mean much to me, though... About as much as mine means to me! But after having discussed things with you, your belts are fine by me... It doesn't necessarily fit the way I think things should be done, but then Tae Kwon Do and JKD never impressed me either but they seem to go on just fine without my approval...

***CAVEAT - That was just a cheap shot at humor at the expense of TKD and JKD people everywhere. No real offense was intended nor implied. ***

When I first met RyuShiKan, I was impressed that he claimed a yondan under Taika Oyata... I was even more impressed, however, when he introduced me to the ancient Okinawan art of "floor sucking." That is what got my attention more than anything else...

When someone cites rank in a style they never really studied as a credential of some sort, there is a problem. I learned Naihanchi Shodan from RyuShiKan, and nothing more. I train on it constantly because it is very similar in nature to a Baixing form in Yiliquan called Gan Ba Hu, and I like Naihanchi more. But I do not have any rank of any sort in Ryu Te. If I said that RyuShiKan had promoted me to shodan, folks better start asking questions... I learned Modern Arnis from nbcdecon while in Japan, as well. I never tested formally, in fact I refused to do so when the matter was brought up - I just didn't want to do anything other than train; the skills were more important than the paper, and my wishes were respected. Now, if I toss a brown or black belt in Modern Arnis into my resume, I think that Renegade would start raising eyebrows, since it was one of his black belts that I trained under (and truthfully, I would expect that individual to show up on my doorstep, sticks in hand, to see if I warranted such a claim! :uhohh: ).

I think that is everyone's point. At some time, we have to accept a certain amount of clarification as worthy of respect. If a person were trained in Kikmiarse-do-ryu-jutsu, and could show that he learned from Billy Ray Doe, son of Bobby Ray Doe, the direct student of Kim Is Kul and Jim Son Bob, the creators of that art in North Korea, then fine. But when Billy Ray says he magically produced his fighting art after spending too long on the portapotty at work and having had a revelation from the intensity of the fumes, then starts busting out with this weird John Travolta looking dogi and moves that make a hamster twitching from nerve gas poisoning look skillful, well, then Houston has a problem...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Now that I know you are Level 2 can I hit you hard now instead of holding back?

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

When I first met RyuShiKan, I was impressed that he claimed a yondan under Taika Oyata...

Actually I never “claimed” that ……….you just asked and I answered.
In fact you are one of the few people that I have ever told my rank to. I usually just say “black belt”.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

If I said that RyuShiKan had promoted me to shodan, folks better start asking questions...

They sure would! RyuTe® people would start asking me how I could do that since Mr. Oyata is the only one in the Assoc. that can promote to shodan.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Now that I know you are Level 2 can I hit you hard now instead of holding back?

Ummm, so what the hell was that you smacked me with last time if not "hard?" Maybe I will have to postpone that trip to Japan a little while longer... :uhohh:

Actually I never “claimed” that ……….you just asked and I answered.
In fact you are one of the few people that I have ever told my rank to. I usually just say “black belt”.

I stand corrected... I asked not because I cared, but to know with whom I was dealing. I still say that shot to the liver was what won me over completely...

They sure would! RyuTe® people would start asking me how I could do that since Mr. Oyata is the only one in the Assoc. that can promote to shodan.

My point exactly...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

I "recognize" that you have years of training and study. I "recognize" that you may well have a good amount of experience and knowledge to back up your skill. Your rank doesn't mean much to me, though... About as much as mine means to me! But after having discussed things with you, your belts are fine by me

Matt, I appreciate your words :asian: I very much enjoyed our discussion and the talk gave me some very good insight. As I've mentioned, the Pangainoon rank was rushed and in 20/20 hindsight a poor decsion on my part. I felt I needed it to add weight to my own system and in this view I was wrong. And as I no longer teach this discipline I really shouldn't have been concerned with continued ranking in it. Whats done is done, however I don't have to continue to include it as such in my bio. I have training in Pangainoon, thats good enough.

And again, in reference to our conversation I view ranking in my own system differently. I've always held that a 10th Dan was an honorary rank really. Perhaps its fairly universal for a Founder to be recognized at such rank, but I certainly would never walk around wearing it! And as such I don't wear any particular rank now in A.R.K. In this way I simply wear my plain ole Black Belt from years ago. No stripes, lettering or trinkets just plain the way I prefer it. In this way I set the example to my students to not focus on rank but on ability and knowledge.

We all have incorrect thinking from time to time and need to adjust. I appreciate input from you and Chufeng that have helped guide me on several issues. And it has helped me to refocus on Proverbs 27:2. Something I had forgotten for a time.

Thank you
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Ummm, so what the hell was that you smacked me with last time if not "hard?" Maybe I will have to postpone that trip to Japan a little while longer... :uhohh:

I never hit any of my students hard........it wouldn't be right.
They do get a very small "taste" though.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Ummm, so what the hell was that you smacked me with last time if not "hard?" Maybe I will have to postpone that trip to Japan a little while longer... :uhohh:

A word of warning for you Matt, I passed on a greeting from Robert to Pat McCarthy, and asked him what Robert was like.
He gave me a fairly vivid description, and told me that, "He has the best technique, I have ever seen in a man of his size."

Man, I've got this huge burn to get to Japan and train some Ryu Te.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

... The poster should be judged more so on the content of their post. .....

If the poster put his claim of credential to support the content of his post, the poster's claim of credential is open to scrutiny.

If the poster simply stated that the post was his personal opinions, then it would be NOTHING more than just that, a personal opinion.

If you made a claim of rank and title, be prepared to back it up. If you couldn't, be prepared to accept that your claim would be considered as UNVERIFIED. The problem at MT was some people ridiculously insisted that everyone else MUST accept the non-existing proof (nothing more than philosphical babbling labelled as proof) they presented.

Some claims cannot be verified, and must be correctly labelled as unverified claims. If people want to present unverfiable claims, they must live with the consequence.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

?

Person claims a rank with an organization that requires annual dues. Person is no longer a member.

Is their rank valid? or Invalid?

What if the org. refuses to verify any information on former members?

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
?

Person claims a rank with an organization that requires annual dues. Person is no longer a member.

Is their rank valid? or Invalid?

What if the org. refuses to verify any information on former members?

GREAT point! Some orgs even "blot out" the former member's
info.

 

[A.R.K.]

Person claims a rank with an organization that requires annual dues. Person is no longer a member.

And Kaith, this opens up the consideration that recognition is based on a financial consideration not an ability consideration. Not much legitimacy in that.

And I stand by the opinion that one does not need to belong to any particular organization to be legitimate. Rank being the arbitrary thing that it is. In essense the only requirement is that someone with more rank than you is willing to test and sign off on an advancement. But then he/she needs to have gotten to their position the same way up the chain of command ultimately from someone who doesn't have any rank . Kind of a curious catch 22.

A certificate, be it school, style, system or organization should be fine. The only real consideration is ability. And that varies quite as widely as does requirements. Martial Artist stated in another post that one can obtain a BB by attending two sessions per week for a year and paying $500. Some say perhaps 8-10 years for a 1st Dan. Who is right?

It would seem rank is an arbitrary item indeed.

:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
?

Person claims a rank with an organization that requires annual dues. Person is no longer a member.

Is their rank valid? or Invalid?

What if the org. refuses to verify any information on former members?

There are cases where individuals were expelled from their organizations for various reasons. Some were expelled for political reasons, ie. internal power struggle, defying the directive of the leadership etc. Some were expelled for valid reasons, ie violating the constitution or bylaw of the organizations.

Upon expulsion, the rank and certification are deleted from the central registry. The organization would no longer recognize the individual's membership and rank.

If that is the case, then it should be disclosed as a matter of fact. There is no reason for people to lie or cover up the fact.

If you voluntary withdraw from the organization, you should disclose that as a matter of fact too.

Let the truth be known. People will judge for themselves if they care to value your input.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
And Kaith, this opens up the consideration that recognition is based on a financial consideration not an ability consideration. Not much legitimacy in that.

That would be the case if you belong to some crooked organizations.

And I stand by the opinion that one does not need to belong to any particular organization to be legitimate.

The right message, but from the wrong messenger.

Rank being the arbitrary thing that it is. In essense the only requirement is that someone with more rank than you is willing to test and sign off on an advancement. But then he/she needs to have gotten to their position the same way up the chain of command ultimately from someone who doesn't have any rank . Kind of a curious catch 22.

It is incorrect to make such over generalized characterization. Rank is far from an arbitrary thing as you might have imagined.

What is true in the typical crooked organizations, is not necessary so in legitimate organizations. It is wrong to project the dysfunction of fraudulent organizations onto legitimate organizations.

A certificate, be it school, style, system or organization should be fine. The only real consideration is ability. And that varies quite as widely as does requirements. Martial Artist stated in another post that one can obtain a BB by attending two sessions per week for a year and paying $500. Some say perhaps 8-10 years for a 1st Dan. Who is right?

It would seem rank is an arbitrary item indeed.

Again, rank is not arbitrary. A fraudulent 6th dan in TKD issued by a McDojang is not in the same league as that issued by Kukkiwon/WTF, ITF, GTF or other legitimate TKD federations. It would only be arbitrary if one considered them the same. One is toilet paper, the others are properly tested, evaluated and certified.

 

[A.R.K.]

Ken, in your response to Kaith..

Upon expulsion, the rank and certification are deleted from the central registry. The organization would no longer recognize the individual's membership and rank.

Your talking about being kicked out. He was talking about being dropped for no longer paying an annual due. Hence my comment...

And Kaith, this opens up the consideration that recognition is based on a financial consideration not an ability consideration. Not much legitimacy in that.

Your comment...

That would be the case if you belong to some crooked organizations.

...Doesn't make sense. If a legitimate organization requires annual dues, and you fail to pay them they may in turn drop you from their role.

I commented to the effect that an individual need not belong to any organization. You commented...

The right message, but from the wrong messenger.

Why? Care to explain what you mean by this comment?

You commented...

What is true in the typical crooked organizations, is not necessary so in legitimate organizations. It is wrong to project the dysfunction of fraudulent organizations onto legitimate organizations.

Again, rank is not arbitrary. A fraudulent 6th dan in TKD issued by a McDojang is not in the same league as that issued by Kukkiwon/WTF, ITF, GTF or other legitimate TKD federations. It would only be arbitrary if one considered them the same. One is toilet paper, the others are properly tested, evaluated and certified.

I find this a bit hypocritical. You mentioned the Kukkiwon so we can discuss that. An organization that allows rank jumping if the appropriate fee is paid. An organization that has been rife with internal corruption causing splits in leadership. An organization where undeseved Dan ranking can be obtained under the right curcumstances etc. I don't need to go on. But this type of behavior in legitimate organizations is not exclusive to just this one organization. It boils down to 'pay them money and they will recognize you'. Whether or not you deserve recognition is another matter they seemed unconcerned with.

So yes rank is arbitrary. What is MORE legitimate....

An organization that has no part in your training, yet issues a certificate they say is credible provided you pay them their set fee?

OR

An instructor that knows you first hand, has trained you, knows your background/heart/ability/commitment etc and then ranks you as he/she sees fit based on that information?

Money paid to a faceless entity doesn't make a rank true. Time spent with a human being and learning what they teach does.

My opinion.

:asian:

 

[chufeng]

What's all this crap about rank?



I thought we were beyond this discussion...


chufeng

 

[Bob Hubbard]

ok, lets leave the personal differences aside...we're making some interesting insights here...lets keep it moving professionally.

You both hit on many things.

I think the summary here is : A person can have a rank self issued, issued by an accredited organization, revolked for many reasons, issued by non-accredited organizations. (Did I miss any?)

Now, obviously, the prefered way to obtain a rank is by testing in front of your peers in the art, preferably in front of the 'head'. This organization will keep publicly accessed records for easy verification by the so inclined.

The least prefered is to run it off on your printer yourself.

Agreed so far?


Now... here is the hypethetical question:
I claim to be a certain rank. I give you the organization and an aproximate date. I can present you with a certificate. This certificate is authentic. The organization claims to have no record of my rank. Its not a 'didnt pay' or 'was dropped'. They simply have no record. All signers (witnesses as well as the GM who did sign it) are either dead or unlocatable.

Am I legit or not?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by chufeng
What's all this crap about rank?



I thought we were beyond this discussion...


chufeng

Not so much a question on 'rank' as to verifying legitimacy.



As I think this threads also wandered way off topic, I'll split it off sometime when I have a few minutes.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Now... here is the hypethetical question:
I claim to be a certain rank. I give you the organization and an aproximate date. I can present you with a certificate. This certificate is authentic. The organization claims to have no record of my rank. Its not a 'didnt pay' or 'was dropped'. They simply have no record. All signers (witnesses as well as the GM who did sign it) are either dead or unlocatable.

Am I legit or not?

You bet. All day long. No worries. But does your certificate claim you are Master of Time, Space and Dimension, or just that you have a 2nd dan or 3d dan in some art...?

I think that is the crux of the difference.

If a person belongs to a small school, with no current affiliation (for whatever reason), that keeps to itself and produces quality students, then the paper issued by that school is legit (association or no).

If a person belongs to a small school, with no current affiliation (for whatever reason), that keeps to itself but produces questionable quality students and/or disproportionate numbers of high ranking black belts and/or makes outlandish claims to mystical/magical skills, then their paper should be burned...

How's that from someone who lately seems to be coming across as an Inquisitorial Witch Hunter?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
But does your certificate claim you are Master of Time, Space and Dimension

OOOOOOOOLD Steve Martin stand up reference, most excellent.
Although you've shown yourself to not being a spring chicken

Does that sentence even make sense?

 

[chufeng]

...and then I want to go to Europe

chufeng

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by chufeng
...and then I want to go to Europe

chufeng

ROFLMAO! There's more of "us" out there than I thought. :rofl:

I used to do amatuer stand up (actually got paid gigs too, but
more often than not, it was freebies). Whenever there was a
bunch of comedians, pro and am alike altogether, we'd screw
off doing various stuff on stage. Many times, theft of other
people's material would happen, and we'd all shout out "HACK!
HACK!" (this was never in front of a real audience). I'd incessantly
hack Steve Martin's old stand up bits (my favorite being "you can't
put on a Finley sprinkler head with a Langstrom 7 inch Gangley
wrench!) ... of all these guys (30 being average) not a single one
ever caught the theivery ... they all thought it was original
material (I DID enlighten them, I gave credit where it was due).

Then I come here and 2 ppl are familiar with it ... TOO odd!

Sorry to stream off topic.