Credentials and certificates

[Midnight-shadow]

So, I was browsing various Kung Fu styles and came across this very odd statement:

Your certification will be acknowledged by every major Martial Arts Organization including the famous Shaolin Temple in China. Credentials and registered certification of ranking is very important to those that are serious about their training and the legitimacy of their art! Ask yourself this, “Who recognizes your rank and hard training, time and money that you have invested.” Also, who are you certified with?

I won't say which website and system this quote comes from, but is this the normal attitude when it comes to learning Martial Arts? Are people so obsessed with a piece of paper that says they practice a certain style? Also I doubt if you go to the Shaolin Temple in China and wave a piece of paper around saying you are a black that they will even give a damn. "credentials and registered certification of ranking is very important to those that are serious about their training"???????? WHAT? I take my training pretty seriously and the last thing I think about is a piece of paper claiming I know what I'm doing. I train for my own personal achievement, not so I can go around waving a certificate to prove how awesome I am.

Now, don't get me wrong, if you are being an instructor then credentials are important, but most people who practice Martial arts don't plan on becoming instructors, so why put a statement like this on your website?

 

[mograph]

... is this the normal attitude when it comes to learning Martial Arts?

IMO, it depends on the level. Old hands know that a certificate means little if it's not backed up by the student's actual ability. I think that your attitude is more the norm among the old hands. This sounds like a marketing tactic (shrug).

 

[Flying Crane]

Within your group, documents can have value. But any group claiming they can give you documents that will legitimize your training and rank in the eyes of all others, is utter ******** and is trying to take your money.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yeah, that's utter nonsense. There is no certification that anyone can issue which will be "acknowledged by every major Martial Arts Organization." (Unless you define "acknowledged" to mean "yes I acknowledge that you are waving around a piece of paper which appears to be signed by Grandmaster Wossname Neverheardofhim.")

Whoever was advertising that is just looking to fleece the gullible of their money.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Now, don't get me wrong, if you are being an instructor then credentials are important, but most people who practice Martial arts don't plan on becoming instructors, so why put a statement like this on your website?

Credentials are a funny thing. They can be important or totally worthless. Basically, any credential is a piece of paper (usually) that makes some kind of claim.

For example, it might testify that Mr. Dojo J Ratt has completed the requirements of The Hong Kong School of Original Dim Mak for the rank of Second Degree Bubala.

What does this mean? Well, just what it says. To whom is it important? Probably only to Second Degree Bubala Ratt himself, maybe to his spouse or parents.

Will another school recognize it? Maybe. There's no law saying that they must. Another school of the same tradition might, especially if they happen to know the instructor who promoted Mr. Ratt. The Hong Kong School of Improved Dim Mak might laugh at it.

So do we care about credentials? Perhaps if a student is forced to transfer to another school of the same type, say if they move away or if their instructor dies or retires from teaching, it might be useful. As others have mentioned, the credential itself still only gets you in the door, even if it is accepted at face value. It's what the student can or cannot do that really matters.

Credentials probably matter more in large legitimate organizations, where it is impossible to know everyone. I happen to belong to a very small, but legitimate, organization, where although I have a lifetime membership and certificate testifying to this, I know pretty much everyone in the organization and they either know me or they know my instructor. So my credentials are probably not much required.

The sad thing is that credential-selling is another profit center for the illegitimate organizations as well. Some organizations sell memberships to anyone who can pay their fee, and then earn more money by offering credentials, promotion certificates, and memberships in various Halls of Fame. People who wish to stack up credentials in dubious organizations are free to do so of course, but whether they are impressing anyone but themselves is an open question.

Martial artists often ask why there are legitimate and illegitimate martial arts organizations and what can be done to 'clean up' the fake or fraudulent ones. There really isn't any way to do it, at least not in the US, where anyone can hang out a shingle and claim to be any level of martial artist teaching any style of martial arts that they wish. In older days, some such dojos were invaded by others and their instructors and students beaten up to demonstrate how awful they were. That's frowned upon these days. Other groups seek to investigate and expose frauds via online forums (not Martial Talk!). Those have had some limited success, but invariably there are those who defend any art/school/instructor, no matter how bizarre and apparently crappy the art/style/instruction, and others who claim everything except what they are students of is a complete sham and a fraud. So it's still kind of a crapshoot.

Bottom line - credentials don't do much for me, but they do have their uses when they are issued by a respectable organization. The real question is what constitutes a respectable organization.

 

[drop bear]

So what does the recognition get you?

For the mma crowd it can get you into a pro class rather than a vegie patch.

 

[Kenpoguy123]

It's probably like if you go into a school claiming to be a certain rank that certificate will prove you are so you can wear that rank in that club so it stops random people coming in saying they're a high level when they're not

 

[Dirty Dog]

It's probably like if you go into a school claiming to be a certain rank that certificate will prove you are so you can wear that rank in that club so it stops random people coming in saying they're a high level when they're not

Though obviously, unless they're walking into a school that is a part of the same system/org as the one that issued the certificate, it's pretty much meaningless anyway.

 

[Xue Sheng]

There are no belts, ranks or rank certifications in Traditional Chinese martial arts.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

There are no belts, ranks or rank certifications in Traditional Chinese martial arts.

Very true. In my school you get a red sash for passing your first grading, and that's it until you have been graded on all 20 patterns and are deemed a Master of the system. This is what shocked me the most when I found this website. It wasn't for some MMA or competitive fighting gym, but a Traditional Chinese Martial Art school claiming to be authentic and true to the old ways of teaching.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sashes are not traditional either.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There are no belts, ranks or rank certifications in Traditional Chinese martial arts.

Do TCMA have any formal system for marking when an instructor vouches that one of his students is ready to go off and become a fully qualified teacher in his own right?

 

[JR 137]

"Certified" is a buzzword in advertising (at least in the US anyway). I hear "our trained and certified experts will..." in what seems like pretty much every commercial. Or the company is certified by some independent organization. Or they're compliant with some nonsense or other.

When I hear "our certified technicians" I always wonder certified by who? What does it take to get certified to do something like shampoo carpets?

The martial arts are taking after this ridiculousness.

A certification/certificate of rank/belt in the MA is as credible as the person who issued it and the person who's holding it. If someone holds a certificate saying the were Mas Oyama's uchi deshi (live in student), it only means something to people who know who Mas Oyama was and respect his judgement.

If I had an 8th dan in Seido, who would that matter to outside of Seido? Would I be able to walk into a Goju school and pull rank on someone under me? If an 8th dan Goju guy came into my teacher's dojo, would my teacher who's a 7th dan in Seido have to respect the hierarchy and step aside?

Certifications are no different than rank. They're only relevant in one's own organization.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Do TCMA have any formal system for marking when an instructor vouches that one of his students is ready to go off and become a fully qualified teacher in his own right?

Traditionally, yes he tells you, if you tried before that, and he found out, he beat the snot out of you.

Also there might be a ceremony showing that you are now OK to go off and teach.
And there was and still is, traditionally, pictures of the sifu and student with things written next to them in Chinese that say your teacher says it is ok to teach. In my case in Taijiquan, it was much less ceremonious. I was talking to my sifu about people were after me to teach again and I was not sure if I should and his response was "you can teach whatever you want". Prior to that he would you can teach this but not that... and he was usually telling me not to teach the fast forms...not teach whatever I want.

Once you get ot the western world, belt ranks show up and after that the Chinese government implemented the duan system and went off and awarded ranks to all sorts of famous CMAists. As one I trained with told me, he does not take it seriously (I think he is 8th or 9th duan rank), but you do not refuse it when offered by the government.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Now, don't get me wrong, if you are being an instructor then credentials are important, but most people who practice Martial arts don't plan on becoming instructors, so why put a statement like this on your website?

It's a sales pitch directed to people who don't have a good understanding of martial arts and what it takes to achieve skill levels both in knowledge, conditioning, and application.

 

[Nobody Important]

"Certified" is a buzzword in advertising (at least in the US anyway). I hear "our trained and certified experts will..." in what seems like pretty much every commercial. Or the company is certified by some independent organization. Or they're compliant with some nonsense or other.

When I hear "our certified technicians" I always wonder certified by who? What does it take to get certified to do something like shampoo carpets?

The martial arts are taking after this ridiculousness.

A certification/certificate of rank/belt in the MA is as credible as the person who issued it and the person who's holding it. If someone holds a certificate saying the were Mas Oyama's uchi deshi (live in student), it only means something to people who know who Mas Oyama was and respect his judgement.

If I had an 8th dan in Seido, who would that matter to outside of Seido? Would I be able to walk into a Goju school and pull rank on someone under me? If an 8th dan Goju guy came into my teacher's dojo, would my teacher who's a 7th dan in Seido have to respect the hierarchy and step aside?

Certifications are no different than rank. They're only relevant in one's own organization.

So what you're telling me is that the 97th degree Lord Supreme Mastership certificate that I purchased online for the Grand Ultimate Potato Fist Style of the Ancient Order of Chinese-Peruvian Famers can't be used to rule the martial world? Man, what a waste of $3.50 + shipping.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So what you're telling me is that the 97th degree Lord Supreme Mastership certificate that I purchased online for the Grand Ultimate Potato Fist Style of the Ancient Order of Chinese-Peruvian Famers can't be used to rule the martial world? Man, what a waste of $3.50 + shipping.

I'm 98th degree, gold-plated. Paid an extra buck, and it came with a backscratcher.

 

[Nobody Important]

I'm 98th degree, gold-plated. Paid an extra buck, and it came with a backscratcher.

I was told that deal was no longer available, darn it, I miss out on everything. Lol!