Contradictions In The Martial Arts

[ap Oweyn]

As I said, it all depends on your point of view. Lets say there's somebody who has a doctorate in chemical engineering, they've worked for a bunch of companies as a chemical engineer and now they've decided to teach so they take up a career as a professor in chemical engineering. When they first get started doing that they're not a beginner in chemical engineering but they are a beginner as a professor in chemical engineering.

It depends on what kind of "beginner" you're talking about. You could say a black belt is a beginner of the dan ranks even if they're not a beginner in the martial arts overall, just like a ninth grader is a beginner of high school but not a beginner of school.

From a certain point of view, yes.

As a matter of fact there are some martial arts instructors who hold high dan ranks who wear a double wide white belt, to symbolize the circular path of learning they've taken.

I knew of this one dojo where they said everybody was a white belt and that a black belt was just a white belt that had been dyed black, no matter what color your belt was on the surface beneath that it was white so everybody was a white belt in that sense.

The art of Jeet Kune Do, the art created by Bruce Lee which doesn't use belts but rather uses patches to denote rank, both the lowest patch and the highest patch is an empty circle, the philosophy is that after you gain all that knowledge, skill, and expertise you reach a new beginning.

My experience has been different, I've seen some black belts move on but not that many, twice at my first dojo and once at the dojo Im at now I saw people get a black belt and right after that move on but that's all I've seen of that. The dojos that I've been to, though, you have to earn a black belt, they just don't hand them out. At belt factories where belts are handed out like candy, including the black belt, it might be different. I don't have any experience with those belt factories and I wouldn't waste my time at such places.

From what I've seen many people quit at white belt or after making yellow belt because the martial arts is just something they want to try out, they're just going through a phase to see what its like and they might decide its not for them and move on, or they might stay until they go up one belt and then move on.

That's my experience, although for others it might be different.

That depends on what you see it as and that of course varies from person to person. As for it meaning that you're a beginner, that also depends on your point of view and what kind of beginner you're talking about, which varies as well.

You're done when you're done and that varies from person to person, a lot. Some people decide they're done when they've just taken a few classes and they find out it's not their thing, but the fact remains that no matter how far you go you can always go further.

Well, I think that's where we leave it. It depends on your point of view. Mine is that calling a black belt a beginner is very counterintuitive. But mileage always varies. I certainly recognize that it can be a way to stay humble. I've also seen it used as a way to appear humble. Again, variable mileage.

What it comes down to for me is that, while a black belt may be a renewal of commitment, you approach whatever you do next with the benefit of insight. Which you didn't have when you were a literal beginner. And it's that insight that informs how you develop going forward. You make choices from a position of knowledge, whether those choices relate to refining your current style, incorporating another, or even moving on.

I get the empty cup and all that. But, to my mind, you're changed by your experience. And that change is important. How we each describe that change can be different. But there's no need to flog a dead horse, so I'll leave it there.

 

[isshinryuronin]

See, I guess I don't see that as a beginner's mindset. It's precisely the knowledge and experience you've gathered that allows you to see old material in a new way. Your ability to focus on nuance and detail flows precisely from the fact that you're not a beginner. But we've strayed very much into semantics, so I'm happy to leave it there.

You're correct. The next level is absolutely dependent on expert ability achieved in the lower black belts. One cannot write poetry without having a solid base in vocabulary and grammar. Once that is achieved, one can become a beginner poet. I'm comfortable using the word "beginner" here as one enters the next phase of training since, IMO, it's a different kind of thing.

Up to about 2nd/3rd degree the emphasis is on drilling and repetition, pushing oneself physically. After that, I feel it's a new curriculum with a different focus than the previous one. In order to further progress in the art one needs new eyes "to see old material in a new way," and this is aided by seeing oneself as a beginner. This is how I look at it. It may just be "semantics," as you say.

I think the main point is once one gets into the dan ranks they should not just keep doing the same things the same way, but seek to dig deeper, experiment, adjust, and discover how to put their own "accent" on their art.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Well, I think that's where we leave it. It depends on your point of view. Mine is that calling a black belt a beginner is very counterintuitive. But mileage always varies. I certainly recognize that it can be a way to stay humble. I've also seen it used as a way to appear humble. Again, variable mileage.

What it comes down to for me is that, while a black belt may be a renewal of commitment, you approach whatever you do next with the benefit of insight. Which you didn't have when you were a literal beginner. And it's that insight that informs how you develop going forward. You make choices from a position of knowledge, whether those choices relate to refining your current style, incorporating another, or even moving on.

I get the empty cup and all that. But, to my mind, you're changed by your experience. And that change is important. How we each describe that change can be different. But there's no need to flog a dead horse, so I'll leave it there.

Well there are some people on this forum who've said that a black belt doesn't mean you're a master or even an expert, I don't remember who said that and I wouldn't mention names anyway but that's just what some people here have said.

Also in some martial arts franchises such as The Karate Kid franchise belts are taken to not mean much. Mr. Miyagi said that Karate is in your head and your heart not in your belt and as such he didn't use belts of rank, he did give Daniel a black belt but that was only so he could be in the tournament as you had to be brown belt or higher, but aside from that one exception there is no indication he gives his students any belts of rank. Again, these are just different points of view.

But if from your point of view, if you call the rank of black belt a rank that means more than being a beginner, if you see it as a rank that means you have a good amount of skill and that you're quite competent, and no doubt there's others that share that viewpoint, than you can see why there might be some students that want to earn that rank.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

A club/dojo can have a variety of levels within members of the same rank. The belt colors can signify different grades in different organizations but not all black-belts are identical. Each individual has strengths and weaknesses regardless of the grade held. There are 1st dan black-belts from the same organization who are not equal in all ways. Take a look in your own club and you will see the different levels in people of the same grade. We are not robots who all perform the same moves and techniques identically. Some folk achieve the black-belt and continue training for years without taking another grading - experience counts more than the colors of the belt. Retain the beginner's mindset, keep training and you will continue to grow.

 

[ap Oweyn]

But if from your point of view, if you call the rank of black belt a rank that means more than being a beginner, if you see it as a rank that means you have a good amount of skill and that you're quite competent, and no doubt there's others that share that viewpoint, than you can see why there might be some students that want to earn that rank.

Yeah, of course I can see why someone would want to earn that rank. I have. I never sought another one, but yeah I wanted to earn that rank.

 

[HighKick]

But if from your point of view, if you call the rank of black belt a rank that means more than being a beginner, if you see it as a rank that means you have a good amount of skill and that you're quite competent, and no doubt there's others that share that viewpoint, than you can see why there might be some students that want to earn that rank.

We have to all be honest and remember this forum is mostly a bunch of seasoned MA's, so a 1st Dan may not have the 'shine' it has for someone completely green to the art/sport.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yeah, of course I can see why someone would want to earn that rank. I have. I never sought another one, but yeah I wanted to earn that rank.

So you wanted to earn the rank of 1st degree black belt but after that you were no longer interested in earning higher ranks such as 2nd degree?

 

[PhotonGuy]

We have to all be honest and remember this forum is mostly a bunch of seasoned MA's,

Not everybody is seasoned, there is the beginner's corner after all, I would say people on this forum are of all different experience and skill levels and there is a great variety.

so a 1st Dan may not have the 'shine' it has for someone completely green to the art/sport.

As I said, it all depends on your point of view, we've been over this on this thread.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Not everybody is seasoned, there is the beginner's corner after all, I would say people on this forum are of all different experience and skill levels and there is a great variety.

As I said, it all depends on your point of view, we've been over this on this thread.

Us advanced guys were all once beginners. One of the main reasons we're no longer beginners is that we valued the point of view of the advanced guys.

 

[ap Oweyn]

So you wanted to earn the rank of 1st degree black belt but after that you were no longer interested in earning higher ranks such as 2nd degree?

That's right. But that's partially because belts aren't deeply entrenched in my chosen family of styles. There are styles of Filipino martial arts that lean into the belt thing. Mine (Doce Pares) happened to be one of them. And commercial FMA schools aren't as commonplace as other styles anyway. So my teachers may have chosen to port that convention over even if Doce Pares didn't embrace belting. Just because it's such a readily understood semiotic for potential students.

But I was never particularly wed to the belt system beyond that. I pursued boxing, kickboxing, JKD, and more FMA of course. So yeah, I got my first dan (or lakan isa, as we call it). And happily stopped worrying about belts.

I left taekwondo to pursue FMA, having earned a brown belt, black stripe. In our school, that was the one right before black belt. But, again, I never felt much need to earn the black belt. For a short while, I thought about testing under a friend of mine when he opened a school. But that was really just the completionist in me.

So I began training in 1983 if memory serves, and I have one first-degree black belt to show for it in terms of official rankings.

 

[Simfers]

Yeah, when I first got started I WANTED that black belt (in TKD), it was a goal to achieve. Once I got it, I realized, hey, y'know what? I'm still the same guy. With the same strengths and weaknesses I had yesterday before the test. I'm super proud I took, finished and passed the test, but the belt itself is just... A belt. Never wanted to go further, rank-wise.

After that, I only actively worked to advance in rank when classes or training were gated behind rank. The training, learning new things, THAT was what mattered. For example, in Yoseikan Karate, you couldn't learn the next katas without ranking up. So I did, up to brown before stopping.

In Can-Ryu JJ, entire classes were gated (white and yellow, orange to purple, brown and black, and then black and up), so to access the higher-level classes, you had to rank up. So I ranked up to black belt, and then, since the higher degrees didn't get me anything, I didn't pursue any. There was no point. They eventually gave me a second degree, but I didn't test for it. Didn't want to. Didn't need to.

Now I'm looking forward to testing for my blue belt in BJJ (likely in 2025) because it's the belt I used to have before starting over, but aside from that, with rank, it's very much "if it happens, it happens".

 

[PhotonGuy]

That's right. But that's partially because belts aren't deeply entrenched in my chosen family of styles. There are styles of Filipino martial arts that lean into the belt thing. Mine (Doce Pares) happened to be one of them. And commercial FMA schools aren't as commonplace as other styles anyway. So my teachers may have chosen to port that convention over even if Doce Pares didn't embrace belting. Just because it's such a readily understood semiotic for potential students.

But I was never particularly wed to the belt system beyond that. I pursued boxing, kickboxing, JKD, and more FMA of course. So yeah, I got my first dan (or lakan isa, as we call it). And happily stopped worrying about belts.

I left taekwondo to pursue FMA, having earned a brown belt, black stripe. In our school, that was the one right before black belt. But, again, I never felt much need to earn the black belt. For a short while, I thought about testing under a friend of mine when he opened a school. But that was really just the completionist in me.

So I began training in 1983 if memory serves, and I have one first-degree black belt to show for it in terms of official rankings.

OK there are others like you in that regard about not caring about further rank advancement after 1st Dan, I was like that at my first dojo, I wanted to get to first degree black belt but I didn't care about getting to second degree or any of the higher degrees. I still went to class and trained there but that was to keep develop skill, at that point I was about developing more skill but further rank didn't matter to me. And there are other people like that too.

If you were satisfied with a brown belt with a black stripe in taekwondo Im sure there are others who would be satisfied with that too. There is nothing wrong with being satisfied with just a 1st degree black belt or for that matter just a brown belt with a black stripe but the point is that there is also nothing wrong with wanting to earn a black belt or wanting to earn higher dan ranks.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yeah, when I first got started I WANTED that black belt (in TKD), it was a goal to achieve. Once I got it, I realized, hey, y'know what? I'm still the same guy. With the same strengths and weaknesses I had yesterday before the test.

Well you are going to have pretty much the same strengths and weaknesses after you take the test that you had the day before you took the test but you will probably not have the same strengths and weaknesses you had when you first started as a white belt. If you went to a good TKD school you would've made much improvement since then and developed many strengths and worked on fixing many weaknesses by the time you get to 1st Dan.

I'm super proud I took, finished and passed the test, but the belt itself is just... A belt. Never wanted to go further, rank-wise.

Its not the belt its what it represents.

After that, I only actively worked to advance in rank when classes or training were gated behind rank. The training, learning new things, THAT was what mattered. For example, in Yoseikan Karate, you couldn't learn the next katas without ranking up. So I did, up to brown before stopping.

Just as people take up the martial arts for multiple reasons (some want to earn rank and some don't care so much about rank) there are also multiple reasons why somebody might want to earn rank, such as in your case because you learn more material when you go up in rank.

In Can-Ryu JJ, entire classes were gated (white and yellow, orange to purple, brown and black, and then black and up), so to access the higher-level classes, you had to rank up. So I ranked up to black belt, and then, since the higher degrees didn't get me anything, I didn't pursue any. There was no point. They eventually gave me a second degree, but I didn't test for it. Didn't want to. Didn't need to.

As I said, some people are satisfied with 1st degree in terms of rank, such as me at my first dojo.

Now I'm looking forward to testing for my blue belt in BJJ (likely in 2025) because it's the belt I used to have before starting over, but aside from that, with rank, it's very much "if it happens, it happens".

Right now Im at purple belt in BJJ and I look forward to getting a brown belt although I still have three more stripes to go before I get to that bridge, but Im not so concerned with a black belt in BJJ, but that's just me.

 

[Simfers]

Now I'm looking forward to testing for my blue belt in BJJ (likely in 2025) because it's the belt I used to have before starting over, but aside from that, with rank, it's very much "if it happens, it happens".

Well the bolded sure aged like milk... Guess who was told tonight he's testing for his blue on Thursday?

This'll be my... 22nd belt test, overall. First since 2011. Gonna have some fun!

 

[_Simon_]

Well the bolded sure aged like milk... Guess who was told tonight he's testing for his blue on Thursday?

This'll be my... 22nd belt test, overall. First since 2011. Gonna have some fun!

Enjoy it my friend and am sure you'll do really well!

 

[ap Oweyn]

OK there are others like you in that regard about not caring about further rank advancement after 1st Dan, I was like that at my first dojo, I wanted to get to first degree black belt but I didn't care about getting to second degree or any of the higher degrees. I still went to class and trained there but that was to keep develop skill, at that point I was about developing more skill but further rank didn't matter to me. And there are other people like that too.

If you were satisfied with a brown belt with a black stripe in taekwondo Im sure there are others who would be satisfied with that too. There is nothing wrong with being satisfied with just a 1st degree black belt or for that matter just a brown belt with a black stripe but the point is that there is also nothing wrong with wanting to earn a black belt or wanting to earn higher dan ranks.

Oh I know there's nothing wrong with it. I'm perfectly happy with that state of affairs. And the things I'm interested in learning at this point--by and large--don't emphasise belts anyway.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Oh I know there's nothing wrong with it. I'm perfectly happy with that state of affairs. And the things I'm interested in learning at this point--by and large--don't emphasise belts anyway.

OK that's good that you see it that way. The problem is that if you do have a goal of, say, earning a black belt or whatever, there might be some people who don't respect that and I've seen that on this forum. There's been people who've suggested mailing me a belt of a certain color or saying that I should go buy one instead of earn one. They're saying I should cheat which is disrespectful.

 

[ap Oweyn]

OK that's good that you see it that way. The problem is that if you do have a goal of, say, earning a black belt or whatever, there might be some people who don't respect that and I've seen that on this forum. There's been people who've suggested mailing me a belt of a certain color or saying that I should go buy one instead of earn one. They're saying I should cheat which is disrespectful.

I think you're worrying too much about this. You want a black belt? Go earn one. Doesn't matter what we say. If it matters to you, it matters. So my advice, whatever it's worth, is to focus less on us and more on what you want. The belt is a symbol. What it symbolizes is what matters. Some black belts get given away. Find one you have to earn and then earn it. Then you'll be happy.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think you're worrying too much about this. You want a black belt? Go earn one. Doesn't matter what we say. If it matters to you, it matters. So my advice, whatever it's worth, is to focus less on us and more on what you want. The belt is a symbol. What it symbolizes is what matters. Some black belts get given away. Find one you have to earn and then earn it. Then you'll be happy.

The thing is to find a sensei who respects your goals if one of them is to earn a black belt at his dojo. Somebody posted on here about how an instructor in Wales was asked by a prospective student how long it takes to get a black belt and he got one out from the cabinet and said they cost ten pounds.

 

[ap Oweyn]

The thing is to find a sensei who respects your goals if one of them is to earn a black belt at his dojo. Somebody posted on here about how an instructor in Wales was asked by a prospective student how long it takes to get a black belt and he got one out from the cabinet and said they cost ten pounds.

If that conversation took place, I wonder whether the instructor wasn't trying to make a point. It's a variation on a pretty time-honoured martial arts conversation. If you walk into a school and say "my goal is the black belt," then you're focusing on the belt. Not on the experience it represents. So you could just buy the belt if that's your priority. (I'm not saying that's true. Just that it's a conversation that comes up.) Why would an instructor who was genuinely willing to sell a belt not be MORE willing to sell a more expensive membership? This story feels a bit hyperbolic to me, but that's just my opinion. I obviously wasn't there.