"combat" hkd... sry
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Father Greek
Green Belt
Just out of idle curiosity, what did Grand Master Pellegrini do to you that makes you seem so angry?
Kumbajah
Purple Belt
I'm not sure this directed at me but since I posed last, it may be. Gm P doesn't make me angry I just think that there is a lot of misinformation that is posted and I am trying to give a counter view point. First - It's isn't HKD, I know it's combat HKD but few outside make a distinction. Also what he does do I think he does poorly - not just from a HKD standpoint but from a JJ standpoint. He promotes a commercial model, I don't agree with the commercial model. Teaching assault as self defense. Etc and so forth - I just don't think his model of MA is good for MAs as a whole. He is selling what people want, so I expect him to be successful but not giving people what they need. ( making it easier for mass consumption - imo that defeats the the art or do side of MAs) It's a sticky wicket because I don't think selling MAs is good for MAs. I don't hate the guy or wish him personal ill or anything I just countering acting the propaganda I see. If you applied his model to something like basketball -I think his version would be H.O.R.S.E. with maybe some soccer thrown in, rather than the full game. The full game isn't for everyone but by learning H.O.R.S.E. doesn't mean someone is ready to play in the N.B.A. or even a playground pick up game.
Father Greek
Green Belt
So are you saying because the man has a successful marketing program that it is a bad thing, and that because it does not fall in line with traditional MA that it is not useful as self defense? I have already seen your views on the DVD program from earlier posts, does this hold true for all DVD presentations? I believe that you had posted against DVD learning. If I am wrong please forgive me.
Kumbajah
Purple Belt
Not that he is successful in marketing - I think the selling of martial arts in general is a bad thing. He is at the extreme end of the scale. As a businessman I commend him, he is very good at what he does.
It doesn't have to fall in line with TMAs - there are things that come from challenging yourself that are part of the "do" of HKD. You can learn and develop these things outside the TMA - MMA, Golf, Basket weaving etc but the point is to stretch yourself to learn about and develop yourself. It's in the name Hap Ki DO. If you are only picking the low hanging fruit you aren't challenging or developing yourself. You may learn some useful skills but it isn't HKD or any "do". Plus I don't think GM P is very apt at a JJ art. Nor did he have much experience in HKD before starting a "new" art.
There is a difference between TMAs and self defense. TMA can be used as self defense as well as CHKD - but much of what is taught is "how to assault" - This is a larger discussion. CHKD says they have stripped down the TMA to give just self defense - not true - they still have the destructive techniques from THKD - not legal in most western countries. Once your attacker has stopped attacking so must you. No "finishing" techniques or offensive knife etc. To say pure self defense is a lie.
Also- HKD is a difficult art to learn - making it seem prepackaged and easy is lie and a disservice to students.
My comments apply to all DVD courses - they are only useful in conjunction with regular hands on instruction.
SO ... if you are teaching only the low hanging fruit and ignoring the historical and civil context and making it seem easy - I think you are doing MAs and society as a whole a disservice. You are selling the illusion of MA prowess and insight.
Just my opinion but you know what they say about those. I figure for every "yea! CHKD" there should be a "nay CHKD". The "nays" marketing budget isn't as large
It doesn't have to fall in line with TMAs - there are things that come from challenging yourself that are part of the "do" of HKD. You can learn and develop these things outside the TMA - MMA, Golf, Basket weaving etc but the point is to stretch yourself to learn about and develop yourself. It's in the name Hap Ki DO. If you are only picking the low hanging fruit you aren't challenging or developing yourself. You may learn some useful skills but it isn't HKD or any "do". Plus I don't think GM P is very apt at a JJ art. Nor did he have much experience in HKD before starting a "new" art.
There is a difference between TMAs and self defense. TMA can be used as self defense as well as CHKD - but much of what is taught is "how to assault" - This is a larger discussion. CHKD says they have stripped down the TMA to give just self defense - not true - they still have the destructive techniques from THKD - not legal in most western countries. Once your attacker has stopped attacking so must you. No "finishing" techniques or offensive knife etc. To say pure self defense is a lie.
Also- HKD is a difficult art to learn - making it seem prepackaged and easy is lie and a disservice to students.
My comments apply to all DVD courses - they are only useful in conjunction with regular hands on instruction.
SO ... if you are teaching only the low hanging fruit and ignoring the historical and civil context and making it seem easy - I think you are doing MAs and society as a whole a disservice. You are selling the illusion of MA prowess and insight.
Just my opinion but you know what they say about those. I figure for every "yea! CHKD" there should be a "nay CHKD". The "nays" marketing budget isn't as large
Father Greek
Green Belt
May I ask what style of Hapkido do you study?
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
Isn't it a little egotistical to presume that you know what people need and GMP doesn't? I mean people practise for all kinds of reasons and some just want to be able to protect themselves without the the trappings that traditional arts offer. When I was studying Sin Moo, I was sometimes bewildered by the sheer size of the curriculum and found much of it of no use to me. I'm not saying I didn't enjoy training or that the art is worthless. On the contrary, I learned many skills that I am grateful for, but I was training for self protection skills alone and now believe that if I had taken out the advanced kicking techniques, the Dan Jun breathing and some of the advanced techniques, I could of concentrated more on what I NEEDED for my job-SELF PROTECTION SKILLS. Kudos to GMP for taking away the fluff.
Kumbajah
Purple Belt
Father, you put me in an awkward position - I do come from a commercial school but my ideals also come from that school. My Gm was a student of Ji Han Jae at the Blue House and was integral to the spread of HKD in Viet Nam and Hong Kong, So out of respect for him I'm not going to reveal the name of the school. But I can say he has always put HKD above his personal financial interests, He does have many satellite schools that he doesn't draw income from, He is a man that I admire and respect and I don't want to drag him into this discussion where I am expressing my views not his. He has always been an ideal to live up to. IMO
York,
I think you are missing the point entirely. TMA doesn't inhibit self defense. They include self defense and go beyond, I can't know the life you are living - if you are truly in danger at a daly basis I am sorry, living in fear for your life every day is a rough go. I can only suggest moving or arming yourself heavily. If you want to study a "do" it does transcend basic self defense. It is a way to live your life. "DO" translated most simply means path. It is how you view your life. Some do it through religion, some do it through life experience, some choose to view through the philosophy of "do"
So ( IMO) if you are coming to MA - any MA for simply for self protection - it should include how to escape a situation rather than trying to dominate or escalate it and should be congruent with the laws that you are living under. If that is your only goal ( not that any thing is wrong with that ) you shouldn't give it the nomenclature of "do" "DO" incapsulates much more than simply beating the ***** out of some one. ( again IMO) "DO" means a Life path. I don't see that in CHKD.
York,
I think you are missing the point entirely. TMA doesn't inhibit self defense. They include self defense and go beyond, I can't know the life you are living - if you are truly in danger at a daly basis I am sorry, living in fear for your life every day is a rough go. I can only suggest moving or arming yourself heavily. If you want to study a "do" it does transcend basic self defense. It is a way to live your life. "DO" translated most simply means path. It is how you view your life. Some do it through religion, some do it through life experience, some choose to view through the philosophy of "do"
So ( IMO) if you are coming to MA - any MA for simply for self protection - it should include how to escape a situation rather than trying to dominate or escalate it and should be congruent with the laws that you are living under. If that is your only goal ( not that any thing is wrong with that ) you shouldn't give it the nomenclature of "do" "DO" incapsulates much more than simply beating the ***** out of some one. ( again IMO) "DO" means a Life path. I don't see that in CHKD.
OP
OP
goingd
Purple Belt
Wowzers, this thread has been busy since I was gone.... and gone quite off topic.
I wasn't looking for a bash Pelligrini session - or a bash anyone anything really. There has been plenty of that, not that new opinions shouldn't be expressed.
I was rather looking for people to express their feelings on the comparison of Pelligrini and Bruce Lee, and then to discuss the opinion... on the comparison. I should have worded the title differently, sorry. ^~^
Now, in my opinion - as I have said - Pelligrini has done a disservice to Hapkido. I believe he has be very deceptive - not that there are not many deceptive traditional masters. He is not someone I would consider a grandmaster or even a master of Hapkido.
I practice high kicks so that my low kicks will be better. I have never seen anything about Pelligrini putting down any other master in any way, but I find it more upsetting how he has tried to relabel traditional martial arts and something heavily excessive. To me - the way he does it - is automatically insulting to tradtional martial artists and masters. So, for this in part I am upset with the idea of him going down in history up there with greats like Bruce Lee.
Greg L.
I wasn't looking for a bash Pelligrini session - or a bash anyone anything really. There has been plenty of that, not that new opinions shouldn't be expressed.
I was rather looking for people to express their feelings on the comparison of Pelligrini and Bruce Lee, and then to discuss the opinion... on the comparison. I should have worded the title differently, sorry. ^~^
Now, in my opinion - as I have said - Pelligrini has done a disservice to Hapkido. I believe he has be very deceptive - not that there are not many deceptive traditional masters. He is not someone I would consider a grandmaster or even a master of Hapkido.
I practice high kicks so that my low kicks will be better. I have never seen anything about Pelligrini putting down any other master in any way, but I find it more upsetting how he has tried to relabel traditional martial arts and something heavily excessive. To me - the way he does it - is automatically insulting to tradtional martial artists and masters. So, for this in part I am upset with the idea of him going down in history up there with greats like Bruce Lee.
Greg L.
Yes there has been way too much ignorant bashing..
Yes, the compairson of Bruce Lee to GMP or to any MA is idiotic..2 different disciplines and very different people
Not even the greatest con-man alive could decieve that many people for so long and prosper..His organization grows stronger every year and attracts notable supporters..Bill " Superfoot" Wallace,Wilem DeThouras( Uncle Bill) and Carlson Gracie Jr etc..etc..Do you lump them all into the deciever catagory as they support GMP and his system??
Kumbajah
Purple Belt
I wouldn't confuse commercial success with being "correct." - He is catering to peoples conceptions of the MAs and showing it to be a easy achievable goal - for a price. All the other people you mention are also selling MAs for a living. GM P is just better at it than they are.
Father Greek
Green Belt
I can only say in this regard that you have obviously never really looked at the techniques that are taught in Combat Hapkido nor do you know the philosophy that is taught. We teach essentially on the Use of Force Continuum. Walk away when possible, counter the threat and diffuse, counter the threat and respond with appropriate force. No one in Combat Hapkido that I have come in contact with has ever advocated destroying someone once the situation is nullified. This is my last post on this subject.
Kumbajah
Purple Belt
I think I wasn't clear in my post. There are things in THKD that aren't appropriate for self defense so if you include them in a "pure self defense " system you are catering to a fantasy. Things in TMAs and THKD in particular can be used for self defense but not all of it. For ex breaking someone's arm isn't an appropriate legal response to someone taking a poke at you. It's not self defense, it's assault. Fighting isn't legal. Things that were appropriate in Korea in the 50's and in Japan earlier are not appropriate in the the USA in 09.
I shall foward this response to Grandmaster Wallace and with his permisson post his response...For the record CH aint all that easy...
Gawd, this is like arguing with a grapefruit..I give up..You have your beliefs and I have mine...
Of course, this is true independent of the MA, or even if the person being 'poked' is not in MA at all.
I have yet to see anyone in the ICHF claim or even suggest that breaking someone's arm is an appropriate response to someone "taking a poke" (unless that poke is with a knife). De-escalation and calm is the first goal and fighting is to be avoided.
Kumbajah
Purple Belt
Catalyst
Blue Belt
I'll try and stay on the question of the original topic.
The question that I have is what were each trying to acheive?
I think GM Pelligrini was trying to take an existing "-do" (Hapkido) and, in essence, revert it back to the "-yusul" (Hapkiyusul), from which the "-do" developed from.
I think his situation is different than Bruce Lee's.
I think Mr. Lee was trying to synthesize a new art from a variety of existing Arts.
Both may have used some of the same methods to acheive their goals, however, their goals were different.
Just my $0.02
Before this thread goes on any further, I'd like to say a few things. First, the actions that some are accusing GMP and CHK of, are in no way, shape or form, limited to Hapkido or any of its off shoots. Second, if someone is not interested in an art, don't train it. If you're not training it, then it should not effect you, as long as you feel you have the 'real art', whichever it may be. Third, I'd like to point everyone involved in this thread to the forum rules, specifically sections 1.10-1.10.3. Many posts here are right on the line of violating the mentioned sections.
Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin
Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin
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