Combat Hapkido vs Sin Moo Hapkido

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not at all - I think this brings the thread back full circle. You're basically saying "it's (CHKD) John P's great mixture of stuff he thought was cool it's not hapkido - get over it"

Pretty much every art is a collection of what the founder thought was pretty cool. They gave it a name that they thought appropriate at the time.

I don't like the fact that sport taekwondo as the WTF promotes is called taekwondo because fundamentally, it isn't. But I don't think that the WTF is somehow deceptive for calling it that. I just accept that that is what they call it and wish that they wouldn't. I evaluate WTF sport TKD on its own merits or flaws, not on whether or not I think that it is appropriately named.

Fine - why should we care what John P thinks is cool? He doesn't seem to move very well -

"Well he's got a 9th dan in Hapkido"

Maybe he has used what he teaches in practical self defense situations? Maybe others who have learned it have done so and have thus validated his system? Some guys are great songwriters and lousy singers. Doesn't make their song poorly written. Maybe GMP is a theory monster who knows how to translate what he knows to students?

shouldn't he move with in the perimeters of Hapkido? He added Hapkido to the name.

See my first paragraph.

"It's not Hapkido - it's his special blend"

Well why should I care what he thinks -

See my second paragraph.

"He's got a 9th dan in Hapkido".

So what? There seems to be more gudans than white belts these days. Means nothing. The question isn't whether or not you should care what he thinks. The question is whether or not his system addresses your needs and if the techniques therein are practically effective.

What he calls it, what his rank is, or how well he moves really are separate issues. What he calls it is frankly unimportant. He could call it American Aikido, Armageddon MMA, or Super-Duper-hapkido for all I care. As the system founder, his rank is likewise unimportant. How well he moves is a separate issue, though it does not really prevent him from being an innovator. That is really more of an organizational/figure out how it works thing and is a mental skill, not a physical skill.

Now, does his way of moving really make me jump up and say that he must be the next Chuck Norris? No. But since he is not the only one teaching his system at this point, I will look at how a potential instructor moves. If I like what I see, I may sign up. If not, I definitely won't, regardless of whether or not I like the way GMP moves.

Daniel

 

[Kumbajah]

@jks9199

That being said, I can't understand why anyone would have a problem with Gm Pelligrini's rank.

I'm just addressing this from the original post. Either, he uses it to legitimize his art or he doesn't. It's just a long way round of getting there - Of why it may matter or might rub people the wrong way.

 

[dancingalone]

It's a simple question - What gives his interpretation authority?

You assume it needs 'authority' as you understand the word in the sense of Moses from Mount Sinai or anointed with blood like some of the gung fu styles are out of legend.

I prefer the market based viewpoint. Sometimes markets are rational, other times not. In any case, the longevity of Combat Hapkido will be determined by how well it is received by its consumers. Products that survive the test of time generally meet a minimum standard of quality.

If it's 9th dan - then Hapkido matters, If it's not why else would you believe him he doesn't move well for any martial art. Not Western or Eastern. So why would you study from a guy that started his art based on a art that he had a 1st or 2nd dan in at the time.

Yeah, I don't know why you bring up his 9th dan again and again. I don't think anyone on this thread has said it means anything with regard to the efficacy of CH. And again, I don't necessarily think Combat Hapkido is all bad just because I have a few questions about the way Pelligrini executes some counters in his training videos. While the man is the most visible face of the style, I don't believe him to BE the style. This isn't a cult of personality. It is a martial art and Pelligrini has an important role as the founder, but he is not the end all, be all of it. Otherwise, why else would he have brought in people from other arts to add onto CH?

BTW - I don't think Hapkido is for everyone - I don't think it's a turnkey solution. It's not what I am addressing.

But you're hanging onto the 'CH must be Hapkido because of the name' rope. You're ignoring the very real possibility that the system itself, perceived warts and all, might be a very fine solution for some.

 

[Kumbajah]

Again - Why would you study under someone that you weren't impressed by?

Again- people are going to buy what they are going to buy. Because they buy it doesn't make it good.

9th dan - see the post above yours.

Again - I'm not drawing the correlation GM P is. It's in published materials.

Again - I think it's funny what people will buy. You get the teacher you deserve. More power to him

 

[dancingalone]

Again - Why would you study under someone that you weren't impressed by?

I think this has been addressed several times. You study with your instructor who presumably you would be impressed by. The problem is that you're demonstrating yourself incapable of separating the system from its founder.

Again- people are going to buy what they are going to buy. Because they buy it doesn't make it good.

People only buy things if it meets a need. People only CONTINUE to buy the same thing if it meets the need and has a minimal level of quality. Combat Hapkido is not marketed as a kiddie sport activity. It purports to teach self-defense and so people who are primarily concerned with SD will be looking at it as a solution.

Again - I'm not drawing the correlation GM P is. It's in published materials.

But you're fixated with the hapkido end of it. That's the only area you want to talk about at all since that's what you know. Meanwhile the entire body of CH seems to have moved on to something else. And CH continues to add more and more material primarily it seems from non-THKD sources. So your quibble about CH not exhibiting HKD principles becomes less and less relevant over time.

Again - I think it's funny what people will buy. You get the teacher you deserve. More power to him

Not sure what this was meant to say other than express smugness over some type of feeling of superiority in your own mind?

 

[Kumbajah]

The original post was about his rank.

He is the head instructor. He calls it Hapkido. I don't know how to make it more clear. He has chosen where to market himself and how.

The system stuff is trolling on your part - If you like it, great! good for you. I wish you a long and happy study. You get the teacher you deserve.

I am talking about the man, his rank and what that effect has on the greater Hapkido community - the original topic.

 

[dancingalone]

The original post was about his rank.

He is the head instructor. He calls it Hapkido. I don't know how to make it more clear. He has chosen where to market himself and how.

I am talking about the man, his rank and what that effect has on the greater Hapkido community - the original topic.

All of these points have been addressed over and over again. It is just that you CHOOSE to ignore what has been said by both me and Daniel, and you sing your refrain about his rank and hapkido over and over again in isolation. You're acting like a broken record.

The system stuff is trolling on your part - If you like it, great! good for you. I wish you a long and happy study. You get the teacher you deserve.

Actually you're the one trolling. You know full well I don't study CH, but you're saying your false words of benediction as if you're in some position to judge CH and those that don't reject its value out of hand like you do.

I repeat: you know nothing about CH other than a few stray clips of Pelligrini you've seen on Youtube. You can't begin to have an informed opinion about the art itself.

 

[Kumbajah]

All of these points have been addressed over and over again. It is just that you CHOOSE to ignore what has been said by both me and Daniel, and you sing your refrain about his rank and hapkido over and over again in isolation. You're acting like a broken record.



Actually you're the one trolling. You know full well I don't study CH, but you're saying your false words of benediction as if you're in some position to judge CH and those that don't reject its value out of hand like you do.

I repeat: you know nothing about CH other than a few stray clips of Pelligrini you've seen on Youtube. You can't begin to have an informed opinion about the art itself.

I'm being scolded for staying on topic - again this thread is hilarious. You sir are hilarious - thanks for the laughs.

 

[dancingalone]

I'm being scolded for staying on topic - again this thread is hilarious. You sir are hilarious - thanks for the laughs.

I guess you concede my points.

 

[Kumbajah]

Ha - no.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The original post was about his rank.

He is the head instructor. He calls it Hapkido. I don't know how to make it more clear. He has chosen where to market himself and how.

Absolutely. I asked a question some pages back and, if you answered it, I have missed it. Do you feel that there is enough of the essentials in the CHKD system for it to be called a derivative of HKD?

While this thread has to do with the man and his rank, you have made a huge issue out of him calling his system hapkido. That is the reason why, at least at my end, the system comes back up. If there is enough on a technical level for it to still fall into the category, then I really don't see the problem.

The system stuff is trolling on your part - If you like it, great! good for you. I wish you a long and happy study. You get the teacher you deserve.

Actually it isn't trolling on his part. The rest is fine until the snide dig at the end. If you'd drop the snide remarks you'd do yourself a huge favor.

I am talking about the man, his rank and what that effect has on the greater Hapkido community - the original topic.

And what effect has it had on the greater hapkido community? So far as I can tell, none, aside from that if the comment made by Fearless Freep is true and he did buy his rank, it implies that whatever organization he came up through as a rank-for-sale business (which really is their problem, something that you pointed out back on page 1). Perhaps you have a different perspective with some kind of basis in fact?

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Ha - no.

The absence of any substantive discussion on your part about the system of Combat Hapkido itself shows otherwise.

Do you feel that there is enough of the essentials in the CHKD system for it to be called a derivative of HKD?

Good question and one ultimately impossible to answer, Daniel.

I believe many the techniques in the CHKD system depend on leverage and unbalancing to work, albeit with a more forceful style of execution than what I am used to in aikido. In this respect it bears a lot of resemblance to some bunkai I have been exposed to in my karate studies. The aikidoist in me now looks at the bunkai I learned and constantly is tempted to tinker with them to make them cleaner with more flow and less effort. Still, would I deny that the techniques are effective? Of course not. They very much work if trained in a disciplined fashion.

Systems are up to individual interpretation. My karate tends to be a lot softer than that of others, even those who learned from my own sensei. This is natural given my bent and other subsequent training. Combat Hapkido should work the same way, given its eclectic nature. The videos themselves present a certain baseline of techniques, somewhat small in number in my opinion. I imagine each individual instructors fills in the gaps so to speak with their own understandings and experiences from prior studies. So it is not out of the question that different progeny from the CHKD tree will demonstrate different facilities and preferences even if they all practice the same base curriculum.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't think that it is impossible to answer, but it would require someone to be familiar enough with hapkido to be able to see it and to then study what is in the CHKD system (not necessarily take the class, but watch videos, read GMP's material, etc.).

Most people see a Honda Pilot as an SUV and an Accord as a car. I worked in automotive and still follow the trade. The Pilot is built off of the Accord platform and uses the same engine and tranny. Honda could have sold it as the COMBAT-Accord, and have the Accord part be legit, even though the Accord base is hard to spot now that the body is six inches higher up, 4wd has been added and the sheet metal looks like a Ford Explorer.

The Ridgeline is, if I am not mistaken, still Accord based, though it is so reworked and has so many unique parts that it would be a stretch to really call it an Accord.

Interestingly, with the Crosstour, they now have their Accord SUV. Maybe the Pilot will take off and fly away. Or maybe gain its own unique platform and move up in size closer to a Tahoe.

Back on topic, I think that a careful evaluation of his system by an experienced hapkidoist could answer the question. I am sure that you could look at an openly Aikido based art and see it (isn't there some SD oriented form of Aikido that dispenses with the religious and philosophical elements and focuses on practical application?). Perhaps the Kido-hae did such an evaluation when the classified it.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Back on topic, I think that a careful evaluation of his system by an experienced hapkidoist could answer the question. I am sure that you could look at an openly Aikido based art and see it (isn't there some SD oriented form of Aikido that dispenses with the religious and philosophical elements and focuses on practical application?).

This is something called "Combat Aikido", ironically enough. It straddles the line similarly to what Combat Hapkido does. There are certainly techniques in the art that bear much resemblance to what I do daily in Aikikai, but there has been enough of a shift to squaring the hips into Uke along with an emphasis on striking that I think the "Combat" addition to the name is appropriate.

Like is the case here, some in aikido are personally offended that something like Combat Aikido exists, although their objection usually has more to do with the peaceful intent of aikido. I am not concerned about it one way or another.

There is also Yoshinkan aikido which is very practical and is frequently trained in a tougher, more painful fashion than many other aikido dojos do. I've always been intrigued by Yoshinkan and would love the opportunity to train with a shihan in the style someday.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Another question that I asked before and do not believe was answered by anyone (if it was, I missed it) is what organization GMP came up through, and specifically, who gave him his ninth dan? Is he a Sinmoo hapkido yudanja? Or some other hapkido kwan?

Daniel

 

[Drac]

Another question that I asked before and do not believe was answered by anyone (if it was, I missed it) is what organization GMP came up through, and specifically, who gave him his ninth dan? Is he a Sinmoo hapkido yudanja? Or some other hapkido kwan?

Daniel

I believe it was In-Sun Seo...

 

[dancingalone]

I believe he got his higher dans through Kwang Sik Myung or at least some of them. The Sin Moo group is Ji Han Jae's, and I believe he's the GM that emphasizes kicking, which would be a contradiction to Combat Hapkido's philosophy.

 

[Drac]

There use to be an ad in Black Belt magazine for something called Combat Tai-Chi..Not one word of protest was ever typed about it..

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There use to be an ad in Black Belt magazine for something called Combat Tai-Chi..Not one word of protest was ever typed about it..

They challenged the rest of the Tai Chi community to face them in Tai Chi Kombat and won the tournament with flawless victory and enforced a no critic rule.

Daniel

 

[Drac]

Its really funny..I have been to alot of Combat Hapkido seminars and there have been people there from traditional Hapkido systems and I never heard any of them say anything negative..I worked with a few of them and after doing the whatever technique GMP was showing they would show me how their discipline would do the same technique..It was a good training experience...