Combat hapkido system vs. traditional hapkido systems

[Drac]

I taught and teach to actually make contact with your distractions. .

Well said Hollywood..IMHO you HAVE to make contact when doing a distraction, except if the eyes are the target..I have gone home with plenty of bruises on my shins from those making contact..

You fight like you train

Something I have told the cadets in the police academy since day one..

 

[goingd]

Drac, as one who trains in CH, might you have any answers to my previous questions on the first page? Thanks.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Some of these relate to the "art" of Hapkido. CHKD is a self defense system.

I kind of view this as a semantic, meaning no offense. Traditional hapkido is also a self defense system, as are most other martial arts, traditional or no.

You can find these principles in this and an in many other arts, styles, and systems if you want to find them.

Yes, that is true. But hwa (nonresistance), won (circular), and yu (flow like water) are fairly foundational to traditional hapkido. Since CHKD is called hapkido, I was curious as to weather these are foundational there as well. Perhaps it varies from instructor to instructor the degree taught, but in CHKD material, are these emphasized?

For most it does not relate to the system of self defense CHKD was set up for. Again you'll find find the art varies from instructor to instructor, what their background is and why they chose to use CHKD.

I assume that you are referring to breath control. Any self defense or fighting system should teach breath control of some kind. Is this addressed at all in CHKD materials or is it left to the instructor?

Striking is very important. Used as a distraction or as an entry it facilitates the use of our techniques as it should regardless.

Our school places a fairly strong emphasis on strikes, though it does not seem to be as strong an emphasis as I have seen in CHKD videos.

Overall, I get the impression from your post (and I could be wrong) that many of the instructors have grafted CHKD onto their existing backgrounds, and thus the underlying principles will be more in line with whatever art serves as their base art, rather than CHKD having it all laid out.

Not sure if anyone knows, but I was also curious as to what system GMP came up through and how much of it carried into his CHKD.

I appreciate the response.

Daniel

 

[J Ellis]

I began training in the Karate Connection's system of Kenpo in the mid-nineties and have since become a student of Ed Parker's American Kenpo as well. One thing I have observed is that while all of the concepts and principles identified and discussed in EPAK can be found in the IKCA material, the IKCA chooses not to discuss many of these ideas or use the same terminology.

I've wondered whether the same could be said of CHKD. If it truly is Hapkido (or a derivative of it), the same foundational principles from traditional Hapkido should be evident in their system as well. But CHKD may not use the same language to describe that foundation, or they may choose not to emphasize those concepts and principles to the same extent. It doesn't mean the foundation is not there or is not taught, just that different systems may organize and communicate similar material in very different ways.

I don't know whether this is the case, however, with regard to CHKD.

Joel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That brings up another question, which is what is the percentage of CHKD teachers who were video trained versus the number who trained directly with GMP or his direct students? CHKD is so new that there should be a core of masters who learned directly from GMP or from someone who did.

Daniel

 

[Drac]

That brings up another question, which is what is the percentage of CHKD teachers who were video trained versus the number who trained directly with GMP or his direct students? CHKD is so new that there should be a core of masters who learned directly from GMP or from someone who did.

Daniel

I cannot provide you with stats you want..Every high ranking instructor that I have trained with has trained one on one with GMP..As I said I cannot give you all the answers. I mentioned this thread to the ICHF and your calls with questions to HQ would be welcomed.

Either GMP's wife or Master David Rivas will answer the phone, and sometimes if you are lucky you might actually find GMP in the office, but its rare..

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I cannot provide you with stats you want..Every high ranking instructor that I have trained with has trained one on one with GMP..As I said I cannot give you all the answers. I mentioned this thread to the ICHF and your calls with questions to HQ would be welcomed.

Either GMP's wife or Master David Rivas will answer the phone, and sometimes if you are lucky you might actually find GMP in the office, but its rare..

Appreciated. I will try contacting them.

If you don't mind my asking, did you train in CHKD as a complete system or as an add on to something you already had training in?

Daniel

 

[dortiz]

"Every high ranking instructor that I have trained with has trained one on one with GMP"

So, out of the folks that you know.. when you say trainined one on one do you mean in a normal training period like 2-5 years or a couple of seminars?

 

[J Ellis]

That brings up another question, which is what is the percentage of CHKD teachers who were video trained versus the number who trained directly with GMP or his direct students? CHKD is so new that there should be a core of masters who learned directly from GMP or from someone who did.

Daniel

Also how many of these teachers brought significant experience with them when they began studying CHKD?

As an example, I had over three years of training in jujutsu, judo, and karate before I began studying Kenpo, and I have trained the IKCA curriculum under in-person instructors since day one. The videos have always been a reference tool, not a stand alone learning program for me. I suspect there are a number of CHKD converts in a similar position. Even if someone relied primarily on seminars for hands on guidance, a background in traditional hapkido, jujutsu, or aikido would make it much easier to integrate the material taught on the videos without seeing an instructor every day.

Joel

 

[Hollywood1340]

I taught and trained with a 3rd Dan CHKD for seven years, and attended two seminars with GMP.

 

[Hollywood1340]

I kind of view this as a semantic, meaning no offense. Traditional hapkido is also a self defense system, as are most other martial arts, traditional or no.

Now I consider that semantic as well. Mainly because the "difference" between the two is just that. If one fails to "understand" it's their failure and where a lot of these questions come from. Good bad or indifferent those of us who train in CHKD and have done so for a good amount of time can see the differences and understand where they lie. I would say it's spelled out pretty well in many of the interviews with GMP and how we came to the distinction.


Yes, that is true. But hwa (nonresistance), won (circular), and yu (flow like water) are fairly foundational to traditional hapkido. Since CHKD is called hapkido, I was curious as to weather these are foundational there as well. Perhaps it varies from instructor to instructor the degree taught, but in CHKD material, are these emphasized?

Yes it is. The nature of the techniques we do require it. It seems your issue is if we call it these names and cover them individually. Nope, as you do your techs and learn what they mean and how they work it becomes apparent that it's there. Just because I didn't call it "Gravitational Marriage" or "Point of Origin" (EPAK terms) does not mean it's not there.

I assume that you are referring to breath control. Any self defense or fighting system should teach breath control of some kind. Is this addressed at all in CHKD materials or is it left to the instructor?

I think you'll find it's left to the instructor but it's amazing how you find these things as you work. I've worked with other "more traditional" hapkidoists who were pleasantly surprised to find we do many of the same things.


Our school places a fairly strong emphasis on strikes, though it does not seem to be as strong an emphasis as I have seen in CHKD videos.

Again, read what, who, and how of CHKD and you'll find the answers and why.

Overall, I get the impression from your post (and I could be wrong) that many of the instructors have grafted CHKD onto their existing backgrounds, and thus the underlying principles will be more in line with whatever art serves as their base art, rather than CHKD having it all laid out.

CHKD IS my base art and I find it's just the opposite as I learn kenpo.

Not sure if anyone knows, but I was also curious as to what system GMP came up through and how much of it carried into his CHKD.

Why not ask headquarters?

I appreciate the response.

Daniel

It seems to me the best thing for you to do is find someone in your area who trains and to go spend mat time. Or call headquarters and find out more. Go to the source and actually spend some "Do" (Way) time with it and I think you'lll find out most of what you'd like to know.
Always a pleasure to talk HKD!

 

[Drac]

If you don't mind my asking, did you train in CHKD as a complete system or as an add on to something you already had training in?

Daniel

I first discovered CHKD when I was looking for something to add to my police training.. I attended a IPDTI class in Ashville NC and met GMP for the first time. I liked what I saw and when I found out the techniques came from CHKD I purchased the entire VHS library and started attending seminars..

 

[dortiz]

Hollywood1340,
you may be the new exception as the art still grows and thats great.

I did find this post on another forum though.

"as someone who came into the ICHF back in the 90's while Combat Hapkido was still relatively young, I would estimate that the majority of the 1st Generation ICHF Instructors obtained their Black Belts from the ICHF Homestudy option. All the instructors I knew at that time had purchased the videos, made a video of themselves, and sent the video in to be reviewed by Grandmaster Pellegrini. The training was also supplemented by attending an ICHF Double Impact Seminar, or something similar."

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I kind of view this as a semantic, meaning no offense. Traditional hapkido is also a self defense system, as are most other martial arts, traditional or no.

Now I consider that semantic as well. Mainly because the "difference" between the two is just that. If one fails to "understand" it's their failure and where a lot of these questions come from. Good bad or indifferent those of us who train in CHKD and have done so for a good amount of time can see the differences and understand where they lie. I would say it's spelled out pretty well in many of the interviews with GMP and how we came to the distinction.

Fair enough.

Yes, that is true. But hwa (nonresistance), won (circular), and yu (flow like water) are fairly foundational to traditional hapkido. Since CHKD is called hapkido, I was curious as to weather these are foundational there as well. Perhaps it varies from instructor to instructor the degree taught, but in CHKD material, are these emphasized?

Yes it is. The nature of the techniques we do require it. It seems your issue is if we call it these names and cover them individually. Nope, as you do your techs and learn what they mean and how they work it becomes apparent that it's there. Just because I didn't call it "Gravitational Marriage" or "Point of Origin" (EPAK terms) does not mean it's not there.

Just a clarification; I have no issue with how things are termed within CHKD. My question was whether or not the concepts are part of CHKD. The short answer is apparently yes.

I assume that you are referring to breath control. Any self defense or fighting system should teach breath control of some kind. Is this addressed at all in CHKD materials or is it left to the instructor?

I think you'll find it's left to the instructor but it's amazing how you find these things as you work. I've worked with other "more traditional" hapkidoists who were pleasantly surprised to find we do many of the same things.

Good to know.

Our school places a fairly strong emphasis on strikes, though it does not seem to be as strong an emphasis as I have seen in CHKD videos.

Again, read what, who, and how of CHKD and you'll find the answers and why.

Okay.

Overall, I get the impression from your post (and I could be wrong) that many of the instructors have grafted CHKD onto their existing backgrounds, and thus the underlying principles will be more in line with whatever art serves as their base art, rather than CHKD having it all laid out.

CHKD IS my base art and I find it's just the opposite as I learn kenpo.

Thanks!

Not sure if anyone knows, but I was also curious as to what system GMP came up through and how much of it carried into his CHKD.

Why not ask headquarters?

Because headquarters is not involved in this thread.

I posted this thread because every thread that appears on the subject turns into criticism of how GMP moves and nobody making the comments seems to know anything about CHKD as a system. The intent of this thread was to encourage an informative discussion. Asking what kwan a system founder came up through is not an unusual question.

It seems to me the best thing for you to do is find someone in your area who trains and to go spend mat time. Or call headquarters and find out more. Go to the source and actually spend some "Do" (Way) time with it and I think you'll find out most of what you'd like to know.
Always a pleasure to talk HKD!

Likewise.

There is a seminar in my area later this month, though I don't know if I will be able to make it. Pretty much all of my time on the mat is spent in either kumdo or hapkido class six days a week.

Just to clarify:
I'm not looking to pick apart the system and critique it, nor am I looking to sign up at this time (I will not rule out training in anything, but at this point, I'm very involved in my current school).

I did want to start discussion on what CHKD is and is not because I am rather tired of what I see as uninformed negative criticism (which often borders on trolling) of CHKD in general with nothing more than critiques of GMP's movement and/or background and anecdotal stories about guys who couldn't do HKD getting promoted to black belt in CHKD, which inevitably turns personal and results in locked threads. None of those address CHKD as a system.

There have also been a bit of debate as to whether or not CHKD is HKD, with those who say that it is not seeming to have little to no knowledge of the system, and most of those who step up in defense either really not knowing the system, or knowing it, but saying nothing more than "it works. Go to a seminar and see him in person."

I do appreciate your posts on the subject.

Daniel

 

[goingd]

I suppose I'll ask again:

Does anyone know what exactly makes CH more effective in a "modern society" as opposed to traditional Hapkido?

Thanks.

 

[dortiz]

Is that being said?

 

[goingd]

From Wikipedia:
"Combat Hapkido's focus means it has deleted some traditional Hapkido techniques which may be impractical for modern self-defense scenarios"

Description for the book, Combat Hapkido: The Martial Art for the Modern Warrior:
"Intending to bring a classical art into the modern world, this guidebook contains the wisdom and experience behind the art of combat hapkido."
"this manual discusses the evolution of hapkido into a modern art for self-defense"

It seems to me that it is being said, in fact, that CH is more suited for a modern society than traditional Hapkido. I simply struggle to see just how.

 

[Drac]

I suppose I'll ask again:

Does anyone know what exactly makes CH more effective in a "modern society" as opposed to traditional Hapkido?

Thanks.

Unless someone from a traditional Hapkido discipline logs on here and talks about their training we have nothing to compair it too...

There is a seminar in my area later this month, though I don't know if I will be able to make it. Pretty much all of my time on the mat is spent in either kumdo or hapkido class six days a week.

I really hope you can make a seminar and experience it for yourself.

 

[Drac]

"Every high ranking instructor that I have trained with has trained one on one with GMP"

So, out of the folks that you know.. when you say trainined one on one do you mean in a normal training period like 2-5 years or a couple of seminars?

They never said..Maybe they were with GMP in the begining and maybe like me they attended about 3 seminars a year.

Off Topic: What impressed me the most about GMP when I first met him for the police portion of his discipline was his attitude.. He addressed the class saying " Just because you showed up doesn't mean I have to pass you". My name is on this system and if you cannot do the techniques you will not get the teaching certificate".

 

[dortiz]

"Unless someone from a traditional Hapkido discipline logs on here and talks about their training we have nothing to compair it too..."

Ok, what the heck.

As far as improving for todays world goes that is bold statement. I had no idea. While not impressed with what I have seen I have tried not to bash it either. Its just not Hapkido. Its taking elements of Hapkido and does them different. To a Hapkido player wrong but I will go with different.

When did 3 seminars a year become a standard for training in anything?? I dont care if its Judo, TKD or Hapkido. I hope I undertsand this wrong and if so apologize. But if its what I keep hearing, many folks doing long distance learning then it explains why the techniques look so bad. Sorry, bad footwork equals bad balance. Lack of understanding how techniques work through application versus force is why there is not good understanding of the core art. Take out the fancy kicking, you can do that at any school. But the core curriculum of joint locks and unbalancing should be good.

Many Hapkido schools run from warm up to stretching to kicking and striking to rolling and falls and then to Techniques and weapons. Some dont do any kicking, some do more weapons than others. All do several days a week of partner on partner touch, feel, grab, throw etc. THE CRITICAL POINT!! lots of interaction to feel where a technique works and how and how on many different styles of folks. This is how one learns to adapt and flow. One technique rarely works. Thats the other secret. Its being able to transition based on feel and the other persons reaction. Again, this comes from practice.
I can practice my TKD kicks on a bag or the air all week as well as my boxing. I can even do some judo work on my body pillow to practice entry and throwing but for HKD / AikiJujitsu / Baqua etc you need to continually work through it with partners and with good instruction explaining the 3 other things happening that you wont see in the video.