Combat between Kiai master and MMA fighter

[Zero]

Drop bear, that's really funny. Great vid

Not only that, it looks like great fun too!!

 

[Zero]

I am wrong more often then not, or so my wife says. Maybe you misunderstood my intent. My point was, the kiai video is a good reminder that if we look in the mirror we may all be a little guilty of having faith in something that may not reflect the truth. That being said how am I wrong?

Pretty wrong I would say. I think a lot of people on this site have a good understanding of their art and what that specific art's limitations may be. I only have faith in my styles (judo and goju ryu) to the extent I have used it and trained in it and put it into action. In addition, as well as understanding your style's limitations you also need to know your own limitations (ie, if you're out of shape, out of training, don't expect to be able to execute your moves with effect on a non-compliant opponent). Again, I think a lot of people on this site are more than aware of that also.

Sure, there can be quite a bit of blinkered opinion on here and some worse than others but most seem pretty open minded, I think they are generally the ones that have been about for a while and/or have rolled seriously with others...

 

[Mephisto]

Called it as soon as I read the title, but "incredible" it is not.

This actually happens quite often. To me it isn't so much about which art is better, but rather how these things highlight the differences in how we as martial artists train and the goals we set for ourselves. The Kiai master may have excellent form and control and be able to demonstrate the principles of his chosen art form most excellently, but if he doesn't train specifically for high-performance NHB-style combat, of course he's going to get smoked by someone who does in the event that they square off. It


Well, you can see he's trying.

If this was any other martial arts video you would be saying the following:

1) For a master he certainly moves very slowly.

2) His partners are very compliant.

3) He is not using the techniques against a fully resisting opponent.

4) The attacks are unrealistic.

5) Why is he using so many stances when only a boxing stance is necessary?

6) He has never competed in the UFC so the evidence of his fighting prowess is anecdotal.

7) Need I go on?

No here has criticized any masters here for moving slowly, it's a demonstration video so most will agree compliance is commonplace in this type of video. Not to mention that Helio has a verifiable fight record and much more video around of less compliant training.

The problem when a practitioner only puts out demo and compliant videos and doesn't ever have documented fights there is little evidence to verify that the practitioner did any other kind of training. Of course it may actually not be the case but all we have to go on its whats available.

 

[K-man]

Any martial arts training is more believable than "someone throwing someone across the room without touching them, or using "ki power" to control their movement".

Sorry, but I disagree. If it was anyone else you would be tearing strips off him. I think it's fantastic that he is still rolling but let's stick to reality.

As to 'ki power'. That is a whole different discussion. I don't believe Ueshiba is demonstrating Ki any more than the kiai master, but did you bother to read the link I posted?

 

[Hanzou]

Sorry, but I disagree. If it was anyone else you would be tearing strips off him. I think it's fantastic that he is still rolling but let's stick to reality.

No here has criticized any masters here for moving slowly, it's a demonstration video so most will agree compliance is commonplace in this type of video. Not to mention that Helio has a verifiable fight record and much more video around of less compliant training.

Pretty much this. Not to mention his son's fight records, and their open willingness to test their style against noncompliant opponents. If Ueshiba was fighting all comers, and throwing them around the place without touching them, I wouldn't have a problem with those crazy demos.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

2) His partners are very compliant.
...

That is the one that always most amuses me. I would encourage anyone who disbelieves, to let a grappler use his techniques to completion at speed and power, and that they should resist. If you don't move with the technique, there will be pain and/or breakage.

 

[Hanzou]

There's a big difference between compliance for demo purposes, and supernatural kiai/ki/chi master silliness where people thrown around without getting touched.

Ueshiba in those vids is definitely a case of the latter.

 

[Spinedoc]

Pretty much this. Not to mention his son's fight records, and their open willingness to test their style against noncompliant opponents. If Ueshiba was fighting all comers, and throwing them around the place without touching them, I wouldn't have a problem with those crazy demos.

Aikido wouldn't be fighting all comers because that's not what Aikido is about.

I've only seen one serious injury in Aikido. That was a student who was resisting too much on ikkyo to a first kyu, the problem was he kept resisting all the way down....

He ended up with an AC separation.

You keep trying to compare Aikido to MMA/BJJ with "fight records", etc. Most of us in Aikido simply do not care at all about that stuff. It's like trying to compare Chocolate Cake to Apple Pie, and then complaining that the Apple Pie doesn't taste like Chocolate Cake.

Mike

 

[Instructor]

Aikido is like sailing a yacht. It's enjoyable, beautiful, and about blending with the environment around you and working with it. BJJ is more like motorboat it's about getting to the destination reliably every time.

 

[Balrog]

I want to see a match between the kiai master and this guy: The Magician s Network Self-Defense System The Art of Destruction

I do believe it would air on Comedy Central.

 

[RTKDCMB]

That is the one that always most amuses me. I would encourage anyone who disbelieves, to let a grappler use his techniques to completion at speed and power, and that they should resist. If you don't move with the technique, there will be pain and/or breakage.

I agree but it seems that every time a martial art video like that comes up someone points out that they are only doing it on compliant partners offering little resistance and that, as a result, it is unrealistic.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Sorry, but I disagree. If it was anyone else you would be tearing strips off him. I think it's fantastic that he is still rolling but let's stick to reality.

As to 'ki power'. That is a whole different discussion. I don't believe Ueshiba is demonstrating Ki any more than the kiai master, but did you bother to read the link I posted?

I know Uesheba was a great martial artist who could most likely take care of himself very well, he was not what I was referring to. The Kiai master was obviously delusional thinking he could use no touch knockouts on an unwilling fighter.

Using 'Ki power' would require physical contact, projecting it through empty space is pure fantasy.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The problem when a practitioner only puts out demo and compliant videos and doesn't ever have documented fights there is little evidence to verify that the practitioner did any other kind of training. Of course it may actually not be the case but all we have to go on its whats available.

Documenting fights in a competition martial art/combat sport is easy for a martial art that is only used for self defense it is a lot harder. There is evidence that a self defense martial art works but it is usually not so public and readily available unless someone just happens to get it on video and even then it is hard to tell if the art being used was trained mainly for self defense or sport.

 

[Hanzou]

Aikido wouldn't be fighting all comers because that's not what Aikido is about.

Wasn't my point. My point is that throwing people around with no hands would be more believable if there was actually evidence of him using it against someone non-compliant.

 

[drop bear]

Documenting fights in a competition martial art/combat sport is easy for a martial art that is only used for self defense it is a lot harder. There is evidence that a self defense martial art works but it is usually not so public and readily available unless someone just happens to get it on video and even then it is hard to tell if the art being used was trained mainly for self defense or sport.

but you also can't not fight anybody and then run around saying you could if you really wanted to.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Shame on those who try to pull things out of context. I would like to see how effective your MA is when you are in your 80,s

As far the the aikido clip I just think it's a cheep shot. If you want to tear apart aikido be my guest. There are hundreds of videos of akidoka that can be posted. But how about we post videos of an old and decrepit Helio Gracie and how ineffective his techniques are. Oh and after that we can make fun of Shoshin Nagamini who lost the controll of the left did of his body due to a stroke.
I'm sorry but critiques on older martial artists just gets under my skin.

I don't think anyone is criticizing Ueshiba for being old and decrepit and not able to fight for real in his 80's. At that age, just being able to demonstrate techniques with a compliant uke is impressive and a service to the younger generation of students. Even if he couldn't demonstrate the techniques any more and could only coach others to improve their technique, that would be completely respectable.

The criticism comes when he puts on a demonstration but isn't actually doing the techniques. Waving your hands and having your uke fall over without being touched doesn't demonstrate anything and is completely pointless.

And about as believable. I think that it's great that both of them were on the mat in their 80s but let's agree that they were both well past their prime.

Helio was about 85 in that clip. I think we can agree that he didn't have the speed, strength, or fluidity any more to pull off most of those moves in a real fight against a serious attacker of Rener's size. Nevertheless, he was actually demonstrating real techniques with reasonably correct form. (I could nitpick some details about his technique, but I don't know whether that comes down to his physical limitations or disagreement about what the ideal form should be. BJJ has evolved since the days when Helio set the curriculum.) If you were a Gracie student, you could actually learn the fundamentals of the techniques from watching him.

If this was any other martial arts video you would be saying the following:

1) For a master he certainly moves very slowly.

2) His partners are very compliant.

3) He is not using the techniques against a fully resisting opponent.

4) The attacks are unrealistic.

5) Why is he using so many stances when only a boxing stance is necessary?

6) He has never competed in the UFC so the evidence of his fighting prowess is anecdotal.

7) Need I go on?

I understand your irritation with Hanzou's dogmatism, but that's not a particularly accurate presentation of his approach:

1) Yep, he moves slowly. He no longer had the speed to keep up in a real fight, which is why he wasn't fighting any more at that point in his life, just teaching. If he had been claiming to still be able to win fights in the ring at that point in his life, Hanzou would be just as quick to call BS on the claim as you or I would.

2 & 3 & 4 ) (These are all pretty much the same thing) : Hanzou has never expressed opposition to demos with a compliant uke or even training with a compliant partner. His skepticism kicks in when compliant demos and compliant training are the only thing ever seen from a given art or practitioner.

5) What? I can't recall Hanzou ever saying anything like that.

6) Hanzou has never claimed or even implied that the UFC is the only venue to demonstrate fighting ability. Helio's fight record is a matter of public record. We have eyewitness accounts, newspaper records, and even some film footage. Helio was never as badass as he advertised himself as being, but we have plenty of non-anecdotal evidence for his fighting accomplishments.

7) Here's a more accurate version of what Hanzou might normally criticize from a clip like that: "Some of those moves (like the armbars) are valid, but some of those other moves (like the wristlock against a rear choke) I've never seen anyone use in a fight. I'm skeptical until I see some evidence that those work in a real fight."

 

[RTKDCMB]

5) What? I can't recall Hanzou ever saying anything like that.

I am pretty sure he has said that a number of times, if I remember correctly.

 

[Zero]

I want to see a match between the kiai master and this guy: The Magician s Network Self-Defense System The Art of Destruction

I do believe it would air on Comedy Central.

It was such a good read I got to the end of the web page, where I saw a link to the "Sexual Institute of Kung Fu". It seems they have all bases covered.

 

[RTKDCMB]

but you also can't not fight anybody and then run around saying you could if you really wanted to.

That is a bit of a straw man.

I could just as easily say:
"You can't win a few competitions in a sport martial art and then run around saying you could use it for self defense if you really wanted to."

It depends on the context. If I heard someone who has never fought in a competition say that he could win the UFC championship I would tend to agree with you. If I heard someone who had been learning a martial art of self defense for a while and haven't had to use it yet say they could probably defend themselves if they need to then I would have to look at how good they were or how well they've trained to determine if their statement could be accurate.

 

[Lestat83]

Just as a side note...i am recruiting gullible females for my sexual kung fu seminar! Lol there are plenty of tickets left lol