Combat between Kiai master and MMA fighter

[qianfeng]

There's also videos of him doing sumo where he gets pushed out of the ring in 5 seconds

 

[Shai Hulud]

Called it as soon as I read the title, but "incredible" it is not.

This actually happens quite often. To me it isn't so much about which art is better, but rather how these things highlight the differences in how we as martial artists train and the goals we set for ourselves. The Kiai master may have excellent form and control and be able to demonstrate the principles of his chosen art form most excellently, but if he doesn't train specifically for high-performance NHB-style combat, of course he's going to get smoked by someone who does in the event that they square off. It

There's also videos of him doing sumo where he gets pushed out of the ring in 5 seconds

Well, you can see he's trying.

 

[Zero]

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Now, now....
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What I see is a staged event. REality-wise the same effect he shows on the students must work on the MMA competitor. So to me the total vid is a sham. And moreover as such, has no relevance to Ki, Chi, Qi, etc.
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There are other vids out there demonstrating value of same. There's a story about Jon Bluming traveling to China to investigate some of these claims. He met with a Chinese Kung fu Master of some internal art. Reportedly, the Chinese Master gave a non-combat demonstration of Chi which Jon Bluming challenged as "impractical."
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Whereupon, the Chinese Master, apparently insulted, walked up to Bluming & punched him in the shoulder. Bluming--feeling the function of his shoulder disabled, then said, "OK, that's enough." Jon then turned around and left.

Like Blindside, I am not exactly sure what you are saying was the sham and if that included the entire video.

I don't think the bit at the end when he goes against the mma guy is a sham at all, I don't think that is staged. He genuinely gets handed his A..

 

[Hanzou]

Here's another one;

 

[RTKDCMB]

The Kiai master may have excellent form and control and be able to demonstrate the principles of his chosen art form most excellently, but if he doesn't train specifically for high-performance NHB-style combat, of course he's going to get smoked by someone who does in the event that they square off. It

No, he got his butt handed to him because he tried to use fantasy martial arts moves in the real world. The same thing would have happened if he tried to use it against any martial art.

 

[Zero]

I am a kung fu practicer. I learn shaolin kung fu and wudang taichichuan and I think that soon I will start with wingchun. I started learning some years ago, but I had a knee injury and I had to stop for some time. A few weeks ago I started practicing another time.

And I started here with this video because, in my opinion, it is really incredible all that is appearing there. It is incredible how students are affected by the energy of their master. Probably they are so influenced by the master that they really "feel" his ki.

You may be right, while I absolutely do not think he is generating any external manifestation of chi, it is possible that his students had bought into his "ability" so much on a mental/subconscious level that, for whatever reason, they were actually "feeling" his "strikes".

 

[Zero]

Here's another one;

Jedi are out there, watch out.

 

[Mephisto]

Called it as soon as I read the title, but "incredible" it is not.

This actually happens quite often. To me it isn't so much about which art is better, but rather how these things highlight the differences in how we as martial artists train and the goals we set for ourselves. The Kiai master may have excellent form and control and be able to demonstrate the principles of his chosen art form most excellently, but if he doesn't train specifically for high-performance NHB-style combat, of course he's going to get smoked by someone who does in the event that they square off. It


Well, you can see he's trying.

This illustrates exactly which art is better, and it wasn't the chi master. If you can't defend a basic straight punch your art has failed you, if fighting ability or self defense is your goal. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of martial artists who don't train for nhb competition specifically that could put up a better fight than that. The ki master may as well be dancing, he may have form and control over his own body but from what we see here he lacks the ability to control another persons body, which is what fighting is all about.

 

[Spinedoc]

Jedi are out there, watch out.

Not that, but that video of Ueshiba is very, very edited. Look at the video carefully. In the first second, the guy on the floor is halfway up, but in the next frame isn't. At the 11th second, we all of sudden cut away, and Ueshiba's hands are up and the guy is falling, but nothing is shown before that. At the 16th second there is funky stuff with the frames....

I'm not saying Ueshiba didn't get a little weird in his later years, but Aikido doesn't work like that. I think more likely, Ueshiba was demonstrating some principles, and someone got ahold of the video and edited it.

Especially when you consider that there aren't any other video's of Ueshiba doing this, and he never made any claims about being able to move people without touching them with Ki only.

 

[Hanzou]

Especially when you consider that there aren't any other video's of Ueshiba doing this, and he never made any claims about being able to move people without touching them with Ki only.

Ah, there is another vid. This one clearly shows Ueshiba knocking people down either by barely touching them, or not touching them at all;

It also includes a longer version of the earlier vid. Some of that is almost as bad as the Kiai master stuff.

 

[Zero]

Ah, there is another vid. This one clearly shows Ueshiba knocking people down either by barely touching them, or not touching them at all;

It also includes a longer version of the earlier vid. Some of that is almost as bad as the Kiai master stuff.

Good find but look, maybe in this case, it is because Ueshiba is so old and maybe did not want or could not, even though Aikido is not "hard contact", to fully engage and so it was more of a concepts demonstration?...I don't know...would be good to have further views from Spinedoc or others with more aikido knowledge and history to comment.

I do concede that without any context these vids do seem pretty wacked out and akin to that kiai master stuff...

 

[Instructor]

A person can spend a lifetime trying to drive a nail into wood with their mind. But it's so much easier and more expedient to simply pick up the hammer and whack that thing. Esoteric notions are interesting to consider and think about but when it comes to fighting, K.I.S.S.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My suspicions on the videos of the older Ueshiba ...

Some of these guys may have trained with Ueshiba when he was younger and training hardcore. They may have gotten mentally conditioned to throwing themselves to avoid being injured back when he was doing the moves for real.

There may have been a cultural tendency to make a older, revered teacher look good, which may have unconsciously escalated to the point of taking dives for him.

I have actually pulled off a no-touch "throw" one time. There was nothing magical or intentional about it. My sparring partner got mad and came at me with an overcommitted punch. I slipped out of the way at the exact right second so that he ended up throwing himself off his feet head-first into a wall. If I could get that result one time through dumb luck, Ueshiba probably did it a bunch of times - especially if uke was encouraged to over-commit to the attack. If those students attributed the result to magical ki powers, they may have hypnotized themselves into consistently throwing themselves while playing uke for O-sensei.

I don't think there's any question that Ueshiba was a great martial artist, but those videos show that even a great martial artist can be lured into a fantasy world if they aren't getting reality based feedback.

 

[Hanzou]

I know that there are Aikidoka out there that divide early Ueshiba Aikido with late Ueshiba Aikido, and say that towards the end he started getting more and more wacky and detached from reality. They say that mainstream Aikido suffered as a result, and that old school Aikido was much harder and martial.

 

[K-man]

I know that there are Aikidoka out there that divide early Ueshiba Aikido with late Ueshiba Aikido, and say that towards the end he started getting more and more wacky and detached from reality. They say that mainstream Aikido suffered as a result, and that old school Aikido was much harder and martial.

In Ueshiba's latter years Koichi Tohei was the main instructor. He was the only person ranked as 10th dan by Ueshiba. Mainstream Aikido did not suffer as a result of Ueshiba 'becoming wacky'. That is insulting and not true. Ueshiba's Aikido became softer, the better he became. His reliance on atemi all but disappeared. What guys training with him could not understand were his spiritual ramblings.

Now, Tohei IMHO, surpassed Ueshiba in his understanding and ability. His disagreement with Aikikai and his subsequent departure is what caused a weakening of mainstream Aikido, but even at that stage guys like Saito and Shioda has already left and established their own style of Aikido. Certainly they were harder because those guys had to teach the atemi to make their Aikido effective. Tohei was able to teach a softer style. Both styles are valid.

 

[Spinedoc]

In Ueshiba's latter years Koichi Tohei was the main instructor. He was the only person ranked as 10th dan by Ueshiba. Mainstream Aikido did not suffer as a result of Ueshiba 'becoming wacky'. That is insulting and not true. Ueshiba's Aikido became softer, the better he became. His reliance on atemi all but disappeared. What guys training with him could not understand were his spiritual ramblings.

Now, Tohei IMHO, surpassed Ueshiba in his understanding and ability. His disagreement with Aikikai and his subsequent departure is what caused a weakening of mainstream Aikido, but even at that stage guys like Saito and Shioda has already left and established their own style of Aikido. Certainly they were harder because those guys had to teach the atemi to make their Aikido effective. Tohei was able to teach a softer style. Both styles are valid.

Even then, Aikikai Aikido is a really broad term. It might be "mainstream" aikido, but different Sensei's have different influences, etc. To say that it was weakened is not necessarily true, I would say that it is slightly different, not stronger, not weaker, just different compared to the earlier Aikido taught.

 

[K-man]

Even then, Aikikai Aikido is a really broad term. It might be "mainstream" aikido, but different Sensei's have different influences, etc. To say that it was weakened is not necessarily true, I would say that it is slightly different, not stronger, not weaker, just different compared to the earlier Aikido taught.

In fairness, Aikido is a strange animal. People outside Aikido do not understand the art of ukemi and the reasons for training it. I was teaching reversals to my karate guys last night demonstrating the difference of resisting a technique and going with the technique. Then there is the subject of atemi. So many people have the impression there is no striking in Aikido. Another issue I had was finding Aikido guys you could actually make their aikido work. Once I found them I started to understand aikido.

In Krav the other night I did an Aikido technique without thinking and the guys picked up on it wanting to know how I did it. I showed them and suggested they might have to train for a while longer as it took me fourteen months to get it to work properly. That's why Krav is explosive and hard. It utilises techniques that you can learn and apply from day one. Aikido is the 'scenic route' when it comes to martial art.

 

[Spinedoc]

Agreed with the scenic route. To me, that is the absolute best thing about it. I can study it for my whole life and still be learning and exploring. I don't like quick studies. That's what is so fascinating about Iaido too.

 

[Instructor]

In fairness, Aikido is a strange animal. People outside Aikido do not understand the art of ukemi and the reasons for training it. I was teaching reversals to my karate guys last night demonstrating the difference of resisting a technique and going with the technique. Then there is the subject of atemi. So many people have the impression there is no striking in Aikido. Another issue I had was finding Aikido guys you could actually make their aikido work. Once I found them I started to understand aikido.

In Krav the other night I did an Aikido technique without thinking and the guys picked up on it wanting to know how I did it. I showed them and suggested they might have to train for a while longer as it took me fourteen months to get it to work properly. That's why Krav is explosive and hard. It utilises techniques that you can learn and apply from day one. Aikido is the 'scenic route' when it comes to martial art.

But the destination is so very awesome!

 

[hoshin1600]

I would also like to put the aikido clip into a historical perspective. From my understanding Ueshiba was in the hospital and not doing well. Everyone knew his time was up. He supposedly left the hospital did this one final demonstration then went back to the hospital and died only a few days after. If this is historically correct then it makes total sense that the performance was not at all about martial ability or if what he was doing would or could actually work and was more about seeing him on the floor one last time. doing what he could and giving what little he had left to give at the end of his life. Shame on those who try to pull things out of context. I would like to see how effective your MA is when you are in your 80,s. Later in Ueshiba,s life it was more about using motion to explain guiding principals of aiki rather than your egotistical "I can beat up the world" view point.