Christian Taekwondo

[dancingalone]

Sean, surely you can do better than that? If you're just kicking an ant hill, I guess the rest of us can continue the discussion or not as we want. Otherwise, I'm rather disappointed in your response which amounts to an 'appeal to authority' and a simply fiat declaration that Christianity and TKD don't mix.

By the way, karate is generally taught as a "do". The very idea of awakening oneself spiritually is expressed in the various dojo kun, and Zen meditation is a regular part of training. You read some of the writings of guys like Funakoshi or Oyama if you disagree that Zen Buddhism runs through the fabric of modern karate-do.

 

[jthomas1600]

Wow, I just joined this group and find this particular thread to be most interesting. I took Karate at a "Christian" martial arts outfit years ago and did not care for it at all. Now my children and I are all involved in TKD. I find the tenants of TKD actually to reinforce most of the things that as a Christian father I want my kids to learn. When I look at the student creed and the 10 aims of TKD at our school I see the promoting attributes that are consistant with Christian character. Our instructor is constantly telling the kids to respect their parents, be kind to each other, always be honest, etc. etc. I don't see it as a stretch at all to take TKD and turn it into a Christian activity.

The logistics and liability of teaching any martial art at a church may be another story.

 

[granfire]

Sean, surely you can do better than that? If you're just kicking an ant hill, I guess the rest of us can continue the discussion or not as we want. Otherwise, I'm rather disappointed in your response which amounts to an 'appeal to authority' and a simply fiat declaration that Christianity and TKD don't mix.

By the way, karate is generally taught as a "do". The very idea of awakening oneself spiritually is expressed in the various dojo kun, and Zen meditation is a regular part of training. You read some of the writings of guys like Funakoshi or Oyama if you disagree that Zen Buddhism runs through the fabric of modern karate-do.

Sheesh, Hon, where do you live?!

I am kidding, y'all, just kidding.

I am living in the dark recesses of the Bible Belt.
Not much enlightenment going on ins some churches, not even gonna bother calling them Christian. I have heard from a lot of people who would not do stuff like TKD, their preacher told them not to, because you do some rituals and stuff. Could have knocked me over with a feather: My instructors are light years away from any non traditional US religious thinking as it gets. The tenets of Honor, integrity, self control etc, are basic rules of inter human relationships, unlike most of the 10 commandments. We do not meditate, the few bastardized yoga moves are not gonna lend you in purgatory....

but then again, that 'Christian' thinking I want nothing to do with, not with a 10 foot pole.
I have honestly no idea, if the prospect of physical meekness is appealing (then, to compensate resort to back stabbing) or if it's just jealousy on part of select preachers who can't handle their flock being exposed to ideas outside their ramblings....

I seriously don't mean to offend anybody, but I am jaded by what is allowed to run as church in these parts, not to mention disgusted by the vultures that descended onto my Father-in-law while he is laying in the hospital after 3 abdominal surgeries. Yes he is cared to death, but goodness gracious, pestering a man under the influence of narcotics and sleep deprived...that is just sick!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Of course. Free training area and the church is a logical gathering place for a church ministry.

While I agree, there are those who choose to use non religious activities as vehicles for spreading the gospel, which by its very nature means conducting the activities away from the church building. There was a thread not to long ago where a student bemoaned the fact that his dojo had a Christian element and the patch had a Christian theme, which caused him to debate about whether or not to wear it.

The issue there was that the dojo had started out without an overt religious element, but later the dojo cho decided to make that a prominent element in the school, though it was unclear how much was actually a part of the class time.

If you are on church property, quite frankly, it is a non issue. You're at church. If someone has a problem with Christianity being a part of a church activity, then they are just being unreasonable and probably shouldn't be there anyway.

I am sure there will be some mental/spiritual dimensions to the training. I discovered last night that the General Choi forms will be used. Just as a loose example off the top of my head, it's not too hard to relate the first hyung, Chon-Ji, to a Scripture based lesson. Chon-Ji means "Heaven and Earth". I've been told that the pattern can symbolize Um and Yang and the dualism of the movements such as block and counter. The translation seems obvious - one could possibly tell a homily about hardness and softness and turning the other cheek to an offense. And that's just one interpretation.

I suppose you could do that.

Personally, I'd stick with opening and closing with a prayer and teaching a good, solid class. When people sign up for a karate class, they generally do so because they want to be able to defend themselves, so that is where the focus should be. Leave the preaching to the priest/preacher/minister.

From what I am gathering, he is asking you for help because you have teaching experience and experience as a studio operator.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Personally, I'd stick with opening and closing with a prayer and teaching a good, solid class. When people sign up for a karate class, they generally do so because they want to be able to defend themselves, so that is where the focus should be. Leave the preaching to the priest/preacher/minister.

I agree. The person in question is a deacon however (along with being a university lecturer in philosophy and classics) and it's definitely my impression that he has an interest in teaching the spiritual dimension along with the physical.

From what I am gathering, he is asking you for help because you have teaching experience and experience as a studio operator.

Indeed. I posted the example I did for illustrative purposes, not necessarily because I champion such an integration.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree. The person in question is a deacon however (along with being a university lecturer in philosophy and classics) and it's definitely my impression that he has an interest in teaching the spiritual dimension along with the physical.

So here is the big question: He is obviously qualified to teach the spiritual. What are his qualifications for teaching taekwondo?

Who will students be ranked with? He's teaching Chang hon forms, so I assume not the Kukkiwon. Is he issuing school certs or is he associated with Christian martial arts organization?

Indeed. I posted the example I did for illustrative purposes, not necessarily because I champion such an integration.

I'm okay with such integration, but I feel that the ability to teach the system needs to come first. I generally find that when martial arts are used in a ministerial way, the teaching of the system is secondary to the religious integration.

Obviously, there are people that want such a product. If not, the idea would have fallen into disuse due to no takers. But I am of the opinion that a martial art is martial first. The religious attachment determines the context in which you use the art and is helpful for Christians to reconcile what they are practicing with scripture.

But if what they are practicing is not effectively taught or has little to no martial or self defense value, then there is no point in learning it and the teacher would be better off teaching the Christian theology and philosophy that he is qualified to teach.

Daniel

 

[granfire]

If the MA teachings fail, you can always claim the 'spiritual' teachings and proclaim you turned the other cheek (or 3)\


I am taking my sarcastic self back to the house now....

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If the MA teachings fail, you can always claim the 'spiritual' teachings and proclaim you turned the other cheek (or 3)

Turning the other cheek seems simple on the surface, but there are other techniques hidden in the kata. Turning the cheek is the lead in for turning the posterior cheeks, which is done when lowering the center of gravity and unbalancing an opponent to facilitate throwing them. From there, various locks and joint manipulations can be applied (see binding and loosing).

Didn't you learn your Biblical bunkai?

Daniel

 

[StudentCarl]

Lotta power in them cheeks! Whoever taught 'turn the other cheek' as peaceful didn't know spin hook or spin back kick. Beware the heel of judgment!

 

[dancingalone]

So here is the big question: He is obviously qualified to teach the spiritual. What are his qualifications for teaching taekwondo?

Who will students be ranked with? He's teaching Chang hon forms, so I assume not the Kukkiwon. Is he issuing school certs or is he associated with Christian martial arts organization?

He is a BB. Not sure with whom, but I doubt it really matters in this context. As for certificates, honestly I don't think that matters either. He could print them up on his computer and I'd think they'd be just as good for the purposes intended.

I'm okay with such integration, but I feel that the ability to teach the system needs to come first. I generally find that when martial arts are used in a ministerial way, the teaching of the system is secondary to the religious integration.

Obviously, there are people that want such a product. If not, the idea would have fallen into disuse due to no takers. But I am of the opinion that a martial art is martial first. The religious attachment determines the context in which you use the art and is helpful for Christians to reconcile what they are practicing with scripture.

But if what they are practicing is not effectively taught or has little to no martial or self defense value, then there is no point in learning it and the teacher would be better off teaching the Christian theology and philosophy that he is qualified to teach.
l

The physical practice must come first else I will not long be a part of it.

 

[granfire]

Turning the other cheek seems simple on the surface, but there are other techniques hidden in the kata. Turning the cheek is the lead in for turning the posterior cheeks, which is done when lowering the center of gravity and unbalancing an opponent to facilitate throwing them. From there, various locks and joint manipulations can be applied (see binding and loosing).

Didn't you learn your Biblical bunkai?

Daniel

Lotta power in them cheeks! Whoever taught 'turn the other cheek' as peaceful didn't know spin hook or spin back kick. Beware the heel of judgment!

Ah, yes, the turning of a cheek, mark of a true MArtist, turn a defensive move into something more!

^_^


(LMAO)

 

[ArmorOfGod]

He is a BB. Not sure with whom, but I doubt it really matters in this context. As for certificates, honestly I don't think that matters either. He could print them up on his computer and I'd think they'd be just as good for the purposes intended.

I completely agree with this and am glad that you see it that way too.

AoG

 

[ArmorOfGod]

I run a very successfull martial arts program out of my church and have a decent reputation.
I say go for it, but remind yourself of James 3:1 = ....and those who teach will be judged by God with greater strictness.

That means to do it right. Have a good time, tune out anyone who wants to criticize what you are doing, and make sure you are doing a good job, both in your in-class worship and in teaching your ma system.

Good luck!

AoG

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

He is a BB. Not sure with whom, but I doubt it really matters in this context. As for certificates, honestly I don't think that matters either. He could print them up on his computer and I'd think they'd be just as good for the purposes intended.

I'm going to disagree with you here. Lineage in traditional arts is still considered important, and since there is no shortage of large TKD organizations, none of which are particularly hands on and which promote nothing that is counter to Christianity, there is no reason to deviate.

If he is teaching Chang Hon forms, he learned them from somewhere. From whom?

And if he is a BB, what dan grade is he? Taekwondo is popular enough that these questions could easily all come up.

I'm not saying that he needs to be affiliated; I can think of lots of reasons to be independent, and really see little benefit to most of the TKD orgs anyway. But he does need to be able to demonstrate that he was ranked with someone and that he trained into the dan grades before he decided to teach. If he is only a first dan, how can he justify ranking anyone past bodan? I realize that that assumes that his program will be successful enough to have to be concerned with that, as with it just starting out, dan promotions are several years away, but these are questions that he will potentially be asked.

He needs to make sure that his bases are covered so that details of rank and organization do not undermine his efforts.

I run a very successfull martial arts program out of my church and have a decent reputation.
I say go for it, but remind yourself of James 3:1 = ....and those who teach will be judged by God with greater strictness.

That means to do it right. Have a good time, tune out anyone who wants to criticize what you are doing, and make sure you are doing a good job, both in your in-class worship and in teaching your ma system.

And the above post is why he needs to sweat the details, even the administrative ones. These are the kinds of details that can determine if he is perceived as a fine teacher who loves the Lord and is bringing a wonderful activity to the church or if he is perceived as a guy who isn't much of a teacher or practitioner who is teaching out of the church because he couldn't cut it in a real school.

In my opinion, belts earned in a church program generally are looked at with less favor by other BBs than those earned in a regular school. If he does it with no excuses, sweats the details, and teaches a strong program, those students will be able to answer those critics with confidence. If the students demonstrate a level of skill that is as good or better than that of other schools in the area, critics will take notice. Who knows? They might even show up at the church for class.

The physical practice must come first else I will not long be a part of it.

I figured that that was a given.

Daniel

 

[IcemanSK]

I'm going to disagree with you here. Lineage in traditional arts is still considered important, and since there is no shortage of large TKD organizations, none of which are particularly hands on and which promote nothing that is counter to Christianity, there is no reason to deviate.

If he is teaching Chang Hon forms, he learned them from somewhere. From whom?

And if he is a BB, what dan grade is he? Taekwondo is popular enough that these questions could easily all come up.

I'm not saying that he needs to be affiliated; I can think of lots of reasons to be independent, and really see little benefit to most of the TKD orgs anyway. But he does need to be able to demonstrate that he was ranked with someone and that he trained into the dan grades before he decided to teach. If he is only a first dan, how can he justify ranking anyone past bodan? I realize that that assumes that his program will be successful enough to have to be concerned with that, as with it just starting out, dan promotions are several years away, but these are questions that he will potentially be asked.

He needs to make sure that his bases are covered so that details of rank and organization do not undermine his efforts.


And the above post is why he needs to sweat the details, even the administrative ones. These are the kinds of details that can determine if he is perceived as a fine teacher who loves the Lord and is bringing a wonderful activity to the church or if he is perceived as a guy who isn't much of a teacher or practitioner who is teaching out of the church because he couldn't cut it in a real school.

In my opinion, belts earned in a church program generally are looked at with less favor by other BBs than those earned in a regular school. If he does it with no excuses, sweats the details, and teaches a strong program, those students will be able to answer those critics with confidence. If the students demonstrate a level of skill that is as good or better than that of other schools in the area, critics will take notice. Who knows? They might even show up at the church for class.


I figured that that was a given.

Daniel

I agree with Daniel here. From the MA aspect, there's no reason to ignore lineage, instructor's MA history, & other things that go into a quality program. While it doesn't need to be affiliated, anything that one should expect from any other TMA school should be a part of a school run as part of a Christian program.

 

[dancingalone]

I'm going to disagree with you here. Lineage in traditional arts is still considered important, and since there is no shortage of large TKD organizations, none of which are particularly hands on and which promote nothing that is counter to Christianity, there is no reason to deviate.

There's really no reason to adhere to them either. I could write over a check to any one of those endless TKD orgs that advertise in Black Belt or TKD Times magazine right now and get ranked at least around 4th dan, considering I hold legitimate certificates in goju-ryu (4th), tae kwon do (2nd), and aikido (2nd).

Certifications are only useful if you wish to participate in the area the organizations offering them are strong in. The best reason I can think of to join a particular org is to be KKW to compete in tournments. In this case, there's really no need for any at all since I bet there's no plans to compete in WTF-style tournaments.

If he is teaching Chang Hon forms, he learned them from somewhere. From whom?

And if he is a BB, what dan grade is he? Taekwondo is popular enough that these questions could easily all come up.

I'm not saying that he needs to be affiliated; I can think of lots of reasons to be independent, and really see little benefit to most of the TKD orgs anyway. But he does need to be able to demonstrate that he was ranked with someone and that he trained into the dan grades before he decided to teach. If he is only a first dan, how can he justify ranking anyone past bodan? I realize that that assumes that his program will be successful enough to have to be concerned with that, as with it just starting out, dan promotions are several years away, but these are questions that he will potentially be asked.

He needs to make sure that his bases are covered so that details of rank and organization do not undermine his efforts.

I don't know (yet). Let's assume he's a first dan with no one particularly special as his instructor. Does it change anything? I don't think so.

Ranking only has the depth of meaning that you choose to attribute to it. Not everyone is interested in world-building and setting up their own 10th dan ranking system. This is a church ministry after all, meant for the members of the church, not for anyone else. So the idea of being certified by some organization seems rather unnecessary and even ridiculous on some levels, considering how absolutely minimal the standards and requirements some of those orgs have.

This is a new project that is years away from promoting anyone to black belt rank. We've not even announced the ministry formally yet. Baby steps first. I imagine if the program is successful enough over time to be in the position of promoting someone to chodan, there will be steps taken to make sure sufficient paper is around to make such a promotion above the board. I do have a 2nd dan in TKD from years ago, so I can dust off my certificate and lend a meager amount of credence. Ironically, I've been around the block to know how irrelevant that stuff is, particularly in TKD. Master rankings are dime a dozen and one of the local schools has more kiddie BBs in their 8-12 class than I have fingers. I'm really not worried about this at all.

And the above post is why he needs to sweat the details, even the administrative ones. These are the kinds of details that can determine if he is perceived as a fine teacher who loves the Lord and is bringing a wonderful activity to the church or if he is perceived as a guy who isn't much of a teacher or practitioner who is teaching out of the church because he couldn't cut it in a real school.

In my opinion, belts earned in a church program generally are looked at with less favor by other BBs than those earned in a regular school. If he does it with no excuses, sweats the details, and teaches a strong program, those students will be able to answer those critics with confidence. If the students demonstrate a level of skill that is as good or better than that of other schools in the area, critics will take notice. Who knows? They might even show up at the church for class.

Honestly, I think this is an irrelevant concern to have about a church ministry program that likely has no interest in being compared to any other alternative out there. It will be available only to members of the church and what you see is what you get. Either people will like it and join or they won't. This isn't meant to compete with other, possibly commercial, studios. If I help with the program, it'll be the most rigorous class I can help teach under the circumstances and I'm quite confident it'll measure well with anything we have locally, but I wouldn't worry about any potential comparisons.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There's really no reason to adhere to them either. I could write over a check to any one of those endless TKD orgs that advertise in Black Belt or TKD Times magazine right now and get ranked at least around 4th dan, considering I hold legitimate certificates in goju-ryu (4th), tae kwon do (2nd), and aikido (2nd).

In principle, no, there is no reason to adhere to them. But people like to know who trained whom and it is a potential landmine. Keep in mind that regular people don't know a thing about the martial arts, so a credential is very meaningful to them. And if they find out that he has no credentials, that may be a problem. The last thing he needs is for a churchgoer who happens to be highly ranked in an existing org showing up to check him out, only to fine that he has no credential whatsoever, then telling other churchgoers that they'd be better off in a "real school." That would undermine him very quickly.

Certifications are only useful if you wish to participate in the area the organizations offering them are strong in. The best reason I can think of to join a particular org is to be KKW to compete in tournments. In this case, there's really no need for any at all since I bet there's no plans to compete in WTF-style tournaments.

Once again, I did not say that he needs to affiliate. He needs to be prepared to be asked who made him a black belt. It is not the majority of his students that he needs to be concerned with. It is the potential troublemakers. And just because it is church does not mean that troublemakers aren't present. In some cases, the percentage is higher: church is less likely to tell them to take a hike, so they gravitate there.

I don't know (yet). Let's assume he's a first dan with no one particularly special as his instructor. Does it change anything? I don't think so.

Yes, it does, but not because of ranking. Unless he's one of those guys who started training a long time ago, got his first dan more than five or six years ago, and just never tested any further but continued to train and improve, then he probably isn't ready to be running his own show. Which is probably the reason that he asked you to help.

Ranking only has the depth of meaning that you choose to attribute to it. Not everyone is interested in world-building and setting up their own 10th dan ranking system. This is a church ministry after all, meant for the members of the church, not for anyone else. So the idea of being certified by some organization seems rather unnecessary and even ridiculous on some levels, considering how absolutely minimal the standards and requirements some of those orgs have.

I reiterate: he doesn't have to affiliate the program with any of the big (or small) orgs. Nothing wrong with being independent. But he should have demonstrable lineage and be able to say who promoted him to whatever dan grade he holds. Remember: people like credentials.

This is a new project that is years away from promoting anyone to black belt rank. We've not even announced the ministry formally yet. Baby steps first. I imagine if the program is successful enough over time to be in the position of promoting someone to chodan, there will be steps taken to make sure sufficient paper is around to make such a promotion above the board. I do have a 2nd dan in TKD from years ago, so I can dust off my certificate and lend a meager amount of credence. Ironically, I've been around the block to know how irrelevant that stuff is, particularly in TKD. Master rankings are dime a dozen and one of the local schools has more kiddie BBs in their 8-12 class than I have fingers. I'm really not worried about this at all.

If they're a dime a dozen then why train with a guy who doesn't have one? I realize that this is a church ministry program, but he is teaching a physical skill that is unrelated to ministry and has an entirely different set of qualifications.

Honestly, I think this is an irrelevant concern to have about a church ministry program that likely has no interest in being compared to any other alternative out there. It will be available only to members of the church and what you see is what you get. Either people will like it and join or they won't. This isn't meant to compete with other, possibly commercial, studios. If I help with the program, it'll be the most rigorous class I can help teach under the circumstances and I'm quite confident it'll measure well with anything we have locally, but I wouldn't worry about any potential comparisons.

I wasn't thinking of comparison shopping. I am thinking of how he is perceived by the people within the church, and like it or not, people within the church have contact with people outside of the church.

Be able to present the best program possible.

If he's a first dan, then he needs to present the best program possible as a first dan, though if he's been a first dan for less than a year (second dan in most TKD schools is only a year out), then he's barely been training long enough to have any depth in the art.

But if he's is continuing to train under another master, he can appeal to his lineage. Then he looks less like a guy without the relevant experience going it alone and more like a proactive student who wants to share what he's learning with the folks at church, but who is still continuing to better himself.

With only a first dan or over fourth dan, lineage and organization are actually more important if you are instructing than they are if you are third through fourth. Even out of a two year BB school, a third dan has at least six year worth of training and has probably been teaching on some level for at least a year or two under the supervision of another master. Also, up to fourth dan can generally be tested for inside the dojo.

A fifth dan or higher is usually not promoted to fifth dan or higher within the dojo, so he or she will be scrutinized more closely. A first dan teacher doesn't have the relevant experience and needs to be able to appeal to his org or lineage in the event that his students (or his students' parents) want some kind of organizational safety net (not that orgs really provide one, but people seem to have some idea that it does).

If he has a huge rack of competition trophies, he can mitigate the rank issue: Americans place a fantastical level of importance on competition wins, transferring the prestige of those wins to cover other areas that competition success is not necessarily related to.

Likewise, if his physical skills are just phenomenal, he can mitigate the issue as well. The fact that he has you involved will help out in addition.

My point in my lengthy posts is not to pick at your friend or throw a wet blanket on his ministry idea. I actually think that, the way that you have described it, it is a good idea.

My point is that the "Christian" part is not really the issue. The major issue is that first dan students generally are not ready to run their own program out and away from the schools in which they have trained through the colored belts and that he probably is not prepared to deal with some of the pitfalls that go with running your own program.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree with Daniel here. From the MA aspect, there's no reason to ignore lineage, instructor's MA history, & other things that go into a quality program. While it doesn't need to be affiliated, anything that one should expect from any other TMA school should be a part of a school run as part of a Christian program.

That is exactly what I am getting at.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

In principle, no, there is no reason to adhere to them. But people like to know who trained whom and it is a potential landmine. Keep in mind that regular people don't know a thing about the martial arts, so a credential is very meaningful to them. And if they find out that he has no credentials, that may be a problem. The last thing he needs is for a churchgoer who happens to be highly ranked in an existing org showing up to check him out, only to fine that he has no credential whatsoever, then telling other churchgoers that they'd be better off in a "real school." That would undermine him very quickly.

Actually, I believe laymen to the martial arts know nothing about certifications or lineage or any of the other trappings we cognoscenti choose to value (overvalue?). Sure it sounds good to say one is 'certified', but it's as relevant as your mechanic advertising that he is ASCE certified. The consumer really doesn't know or care as long as his car is fixed to his satisfaction.

Once again, I did not say that he needs to affiliate. He needs to be prepared to be asked who made him a black belt. It is not the majority of his students that he needs to be concerned with. It is the potential troublemakers. And just because it is church does not mean that troublemakers aren't present. In some cases, the percentage is higher: church is less likely to tell them to take a hike, so they gravitate there.

Well, of course anyone should be able to say who trained him. That's common sense. The rest of the stuff you mentioned are only trappings however, and what I've been trying to say is that they're really only things martial arts people find important because they want to attribute more to it out of ego. Things like rank or certification or even holding excessive pride in 'who was your teacher'. I've trained under some respected people in my various arts, but none of my students have ever asked me who I learned from. And they know my teachers are respected only because I tell them they are.

Yes, it does, but not because of ranking. Unless he's one of those guys who started training a long time ago, got his first dan more than five or six years ago, and just never tested any further but continued to train and improve, then he probably isn't ready to be running his own show. Which is probably the reason that he asked you to help.

He's rather interested in my spin on TKD, having visited my friend's TKD school on a couple of nights in which I taught. I teach karate bunkai and kobudo there, having adapted some shorin-ryu applications to the Choi forms. I gather his own TKD training was somewhat different.

I reiterate: he doesn't have to affiliate the program with any of the big (or small) orgs. Nothing wrong with being independent. But he should have demonstrable lineage and be able to say who promoted him to whatever dan grade he holds. Remember: people like credentials.

Addressed above.

If they're a dime a dozen then why train with a guy who doesn't have one? I realize that this is a church ministry program, but he is teaching a physical skill that is unrelated to ministry and has an entirely different set of qualifications.

Because they are meaningless in the overall scheme of things? We both realize there are dozens of TKD orgs out there. Some more credible than others, but I think it's well-known that even some of the bigger ones (I won't mention names to avoid de-railing the thread) are as difficult to acquire rank as as buying Cracker Jacks and getting the prize out of the box.

The person in question will have the physical skill to teach on his own merits and not because he belongs to some organization someone else decided to start to make some money or to grow some MA empire.

In any case, I made a quick email just to check things out and it appears he's an old 3nd dan in a defunct org (hmm, seems like some of these orgs are Cracker Jacks indeed), so presumably he had some skill at least at one point.

I wasn't thinking of comparison shopping. I am thinking of how he is perceived by the people within the church, and like it or not, people within the church have contact with people outside of the church.

Be able to present the best program possible.

If he's a first dan, then he needs to present the best program possible as a first dan, though if he's been a first dan for less than a year (second dan in most TKD schools is only a year out), then he's barely been training long enough to have any depth in the art.

But if he's is continuing to train under another master, he can appeal to his lineage. Then he looks less like a guy without the relevant experience going it alone and more like a proactive student who wants to share what he's learning with the folks at church, but who is still continuing to better himself.

With only a first dan or over fourth dan, lineage and organization are actually more important if you are instructing than they are if you are third through fourth. Even out of a two year BB school, a third dan has at least six year worth of training and has probably been teaching on some level for at least a year or two under the supervision of another master. Also, up to fourth dan can generally be tested for inside the dojo.

A fifth dan or higher is usually not promoted to fifth dan or higher within the dojo, so he or she will be scrutinized more closely. A first dan teacher doesn't have the relevant experience and needs to be able to appeal to his org or lineage in the event that his students (or his students' parents) want some kind of organizational safety net (not that orgs really provide one, but people seem to have some idea that it does).

If he has a huge rack of competition trophies, he can mitigate the rank issue: Americans place a fantastical level of importance on competition wins, transferring the prestige of those wins to cover other areas that competition success is not necessarily related to.

Likewise, if his physical skills are just phenomenal, he can mitigate the issue as well. The fact that he has you involved will help out in addition.

I guess some of these concerns have been allayed by the discovery of his rank, but I still respectfully submit that he could be a mere chodan and still be able to function as well. I wouldn't know what rank my karate sensei was except that I saw his teaching license/certificate when I first visited his home. He's never brought it up in class. Similarly, I never tell my students what my rank is and my obi does not have any stripes to indicate my dan. The proof is in my physical skill and my teaching excellence, and the latter is more important than the first, realizing of course that it's much easier to teach well if you can also perform and demonstrate well.

My point in my lengthy posts is not to pick at your friend or throw a wet blanket on his ministry idea. I actually think that, the way that you have described it, it is a good idea.

No worries. I frequently use this board as a sounding out board and you're just adding to the discussion.

My point is that the "Christian" part is not really the issue. The major issue is that first dan students generally are not ready to run their own program out and away from the schools in which they have trained through the colored belts and that he probably is not prepared to deal with some of the pitfalls that go with running your own program.

Skill and readiness to teach are their own issues, outside of rank, and certainly apart from the Christian connotations. I am a mere 2nd dan in tae kwon do, but I believe I am a better martial artist than many who hold a higher rank in TKD. Likewise, I am sure there are better teachers than me who might not be able to perform to my current physical standard.

 

[Balrog]

One of the other parishioners in my church is starting a physical fitness ministry using taekwondo as the main activity. He knows I am a MA instructor and has asked me for my help as he has no prior experience running a program.

Thoughts? I am generally opposed to mixing martial arts and religion, but I do believe the members of my church could benefit from another outlet to get physical exercise with perhaps some self-defense instruction. I would also be pained to decline to help a fellow church member in a sincere attempt to improve the lives of others.

Teach it but keep religion out of it. If the other guy isn't willing to do so, don't get involved.

My $0.02 worth....