Funny... only in the west.
Christian Taekwondo
- Thread starter dancingalone
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Funny... only in the west.
OP
OP
dancingalone
Grandmaster
I think calling it "Christian Martial Arts" is actually well-done if one has an intention to imbue the training with ideas and values derived from the Gospels and the Bible. At the very least, it's honest.
But it's not really honest when you label a martial art with a certain slant when the majority of Asian Martial Arts aren't religious in nature or context.
Putting ideas & values on something when there's no base for them isn't exactly up & up, is it?
I'm just asking for the sake of discussion. Your views are yours & if you find like minded people to practice with, then all the best.
wushuguy
Purple Belt
Actually most eastern martial arts are religious. dojo, is a place to study "do" or in chinese "dao" which is a religion, daoist, mainly.
even TKD, also has many religious teachings, although most of the religious side of martial arts are lost to us western people, but they are there if you pay attention.
Religions tend to teach one how to live a way of life, so that's why so many martial artists say, such and such art is their way of life, ie. that's their religion.
So, i think adding a "Christian" brand to the set of movements, although seemingly awkward, it isn't different than the original art, which one would practice daoism albeit unknowingly. So, even those masters who say their art isn't a religion, then why are there daoist teachings and overtones in the arts?
In almost 30 years, I've only come across 1 that was remotely religious & that had a shinto influence to it.
In CMA which I teach, I have yet to see any martial art referred to as "dao" or have "dao" with the meaning of "path" or "way" associated with it in the name or focus. Internal martial arts are associated (incorrectly I might add) with Daoism. They're no more Daoist than Fut Ga is the actual "Buddha Style".
Like where in what?
Eh... I don't think so. It's not anymore a religion than it is for the guy that hits a bucket of golf balls after work a couple of days a week for XX years. It's just what we do. Trying to attach a religious connotation to that isn't quite right either.
No... the practice of Daoism is a specific set of studied precepts, just like any religion.
wushuguy
Purple Belt
from wikipedia: A religion is a system of human thought which usually includes a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, deity or deities, or ultimate truth.
Martial Arts don't have a "god" but most arts consider the way they practice as an "ultimate truth" or a way of life comprising their beliefs (moral values, etc), ways of practicing what they believe (example: reciting student creeds, religions often recite creeds which reflect their belief and how they will practice, also including meditations, etc.), and most people who practice feel that the art they learn is part of their life or made their life more meaningful, etc.
I used to work in a TKD school and also karate school. There they really indoctrinate the students with philosophies of life, akin to a religion, and try to "change" their followers. One I worked at even the grandmaster was going so far as to teach the students the way of enlightenment, and claims that if people do tae kwon do, that is the way to "forever happiness" and other BS. I know that example of him is on the extreme end, however there are a number that will teach varying degrees of life philosophy in the martial arts.
Now, I understand that not all teacher will teach a martial art with religious overtones, for example in wing chun, we just showed up, worked out, and left. none of the ceremonies or whatever that some places have, we treated it as a sport, like golf as in your example.
However some qigong or other meditation exercises done in martial arts schools are the same ones done in daoist monasteries, so if one practices the same things as the daoists, it's similar to one who goes to a catholic church and practices the rosary. maybe you go there and don't feel it as a religion, but then practicing it that way would look certainly like one.
Martial Arts don't have a "god" but most arts consider the way they practice as an "ultimate truth" or a way of life comprising their beliefs (moral values, etc), ways of practicing what they believe (example: reciting student creeds, religions often recite creeds which reflect their belief and how they will practice, also including meditations, etc.), and most people who practice feel that the art they learn is part of their life or made their life more meaningful, etc.
I used to work in a TKD school and also karate school. There they really indoctrinate the students with philosophies of life, akin to a religion, and try to "change" their followers. One I worked at even the grandmaster was going so far as to teach the students the way of enlightenment, and claims that if people do tae kwon do, that is the way to "forever happiness" and other BS. I know that example of him is on the extreme end, however there are a number that will teach varying degrees of life philosophy in the martial arts.
Now, I understand that not all teacher will teach a martial art with religious overtones, for example in wing chun, we just showed up, worked out, and left. none of the ceremonies or whatever that some places have, we treated it as a sport, like golf as in your example.
However some qigong or other meditation exercises done in martial arts schools are the same ones done in daoist monasteries, so if one practices the same things as the daoists, it's similar to one who goes to a catholic church and practices the rosary. maybe you go there and don't feel it as a religion, but then practicing it that way would look certainly like one.
If it is in the context of a church ministry, it really is a no brainer.
Your students are members of the church and most likely simply want a physical activity within the church environment.
Since the core values of most martial arts dovetail reasonably well with Christian values, making an art like taekwondo or aikido work within a church environ is not much of a challenge.
Also, since your students all share the same belief system, you don't have to worry about whether or not your Christian slant will offend any of them.
Now, if it is in the context of a stand alone business with spreading the gospel as part of the mission, you run into a very different dynamic. In this case, every potential student needs to be told in no uncertain terms and up front that the school is Christian. If they choose to join and end up not liking it, the worst that they can say is that they tried it and it wasn't for them.
If you act like its just a regular TKD school, sign them up, then start opening class with a prayer, then you may have some unhappy people who feel misled.
Daniel
Your students are members of the church and most likely simply want a physical activity within the church environment.
Since the core values of most martial arts dovetail reasonably well with Christian values, making an art like taekwondo or aikido work within a church environ is not much of a challenge.
Also, since your students all share the same belief system, you don't have to worry about whether or not your Christian slant will offend any of them.
Now, if it is in the context of a stand alone business with spreading the gospel as part of the mission, you run into a very different dynamic. In this case, every potential student needs to be told in no uncertain terms and up front that the school is Christian. If they choose to join and end up not liking it, the worst that they can say is that they tried it and it wasn't for them.
If you act like its just a regular TKD school, sign them up, then start opening class with a prayer, then you may have some unhappy people who feel misled.
Daniel
Wow... I've been wiki'd!! Wonder if it's similiar to being Rick'rolled?
Name me one that does that with a strictly religious background.
That's called cultish. Which I guess in a sense is the same as an organized religion. BUT for the the topic of this discussion, isn't the point because it didn't come from the martial art's background. That's the teacher's influence & personal beliefs & dogma coming out & being espoused.
Funny... you should've at least bowed to a sun toi, but otherwise that's about the size of it for most martial arts, minus the sport inflection. It's just something that's done because... <insert reason here>.
Yeah... so what. There are lawyers & accountants that work for churches, doesn't make 'em priests, although they could be.
Daoism is a prescribed path. In China there are multiple arts that all share different qigong methods. Do you actually know what qigong is & is used for? Qigong does not a Daoist make. The serious tried & true Daoist will go much farther than a simple exercise like a qigong.
OP
OP
dancingalone
Grandmaster
I'm afraid I don't follow your line of reasoning. Adding 'Christian' to 'Taekwondo' would indicate a definite alteration of the original. You are adding or changing the base and it's declared up front. It's like a hamburger and a cheeseburger. Cheeseburger is an apt description for the product since it's a hamburger with a slice of cheese added. Christian taekwondo would be taekwondo with Christian worship/study added or substituted in somehow.
Then it's no longer Taekwondo either. You can't have both.
It's similar to "non-alcoholic beer". That's an oxymoron. Beer is a fermented beverage that during the fermintation process due to the ingredients, produces an ethyl alcohol content. Remove that part of it & you've got something different.
You're adding something foreign to something that doesn't have it. It's not changing flavors i.e. Baptist to Methodist. You're wanting to fundamentally change its base.
Call it "Dancing's Raging Fist of God" or something like that, but it's not TKD at that point.
OP
OP
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Are we talking about two different things, Sean? What do you consider the base of taekwondo to be? The tenets of General Choi? None of those are incompatible with Christianity. The physical techniques? Those are style and lineage specific to begin with, and they surely will be taught and practiced.
I'm puzzled as to why you think adding some religious Christian study or symbolism makes the art of taekwondo not taekwondo.
I'm puzzled as to why you think adding some religious Christian study or symbolism makes the art of taekwondo not taekwondo.
I am a member of the U.S. Chung Do Kwan association, and it's a Christian organization. I had to write a paper for my class about using Taekwondo as an evangelistic tool. Here's a little bit of it:
No right-minded person desires a strong body and a stupid mind, nor intelligence to spare with a frail physique. While many accept their weaknesses, most would certainly enjoy conquering them. This is the pivotal point that can be used to turn Taekwondo into an effective tool for Christ.
The Sell Team of the USCDKA teaches the importance of developing into a ĀWhole Man.Ā This ĀWhole ManĀ consists of strength in body, mind, and spirit (sellteam.org). The Sell Team philosophy is that when a person becomes enraptured in the conditioning of their mind and body, they grow much stronger than by training just one or the other. However, with all of their strength they will soon notice a void in their lives, an emptiness that all the physical conditioning and education in the world cannot fill. This is where the strength in spirit comes into play. The only thing that can fill the spiritual void in our lives is Jesus Christ. To reach our full potential in any area, we must condition our body and mind, as well as our spirit.
In the USCDKA, a Black Belt does not simply indicate a mastery of basic martial arts skills, it represents victory over weakness in all areas of life. When one conditions the body, mind, and spirit to grow together, he has become a champion.
Still, the task at hand for crafting Taekwondo into an evangelistic tool, is to find a bridge. Someone may be willing to attend a Taekwondo demonstration, but not a church service. These people may require more than just being told that a strong spirit is important. Instead of aimlessly striving to convince one another of our different opinions, we should look for further common ground. Careful examination will reveal much similarity in great martial artists and faithful Christians. Self-control is the greatest asset to both; without it, the opposition has the upper hand. It is self-discipline that gives Taekwondo its great potential for outreach.
The self-control required to master the body and mind is unattainable without mastery of the spirit. From a Christian perspective, we have two natures within us that wage war. Our flesh would have us far from a righteous body and mind, while our spirit would have us a champion of both. Our body wants only what feels good, our mind tells us that sometimes we need what does not feel good, and our spirit allows us to choose the right path. A weak spirit will build mental barriers that the body and mind cannot break through, barriers that the spirit alone can shatter if only we would recondition it.
In addition to prayer and study of GodĀs Word, those who train under USCDKA principles, practice Poomse to strengthen their self-control and spirit. The Poomse train the spirit by demonstrating a need to perfect movements through repetition, a task that can only be completed with a strong spirit of patience. The Poomse condition the body and mind, but primarily teach self-control.
No right-minded person desires a strong body and a stupid mind, nor intelligence to spare with a frail physique. While many accept their weaknesses, most would certainly enjoy conquering them. This is the pivotal point that can be used to turn Taekwondo into an effective tool for Christ.
The Sell Team of the USCDKA teaches the importance of developing into a ĀWhole Man.Ā This ĀWhole ManĀ consists of strength in body, mind, and spirit (sellteam.org). The Sell Team philosophy is that when a person becomes enraptured in the conditioning of their mind and body, they grow much stronger than by training just one or the other. However, with all of their strength they will soon notice a void in their lives, an emptiness that all the physical conditioning and education in the world cannot fill. This is where the strength in spirit comes into play. The only thing that can fill the spiritual void in our lives is Jesus Christ. To reach our full potential in any area, we must condition our body and mind, as well as our spirit.
In the USCDKA, a Black Belt does not simply indicate a mastery of basic martial arts skills, it represents victory over weakness in all areas of life. When one conditions the body, mind, and spirit to grow together, he has become a champion.
Still, the task at hand for crafting Taekwondo into an evangelistic tool, is to find a bridge. Someone may be willing to attend a Taekwondo demonstration, but not a church service. These people may require more than just being told that a strong spirit is important. Instead of aimlessly striving to convince one another of our different opinions, we should look for further common ground. Careful examination will reveal much similarity in great martial artists and faithful Christians. Self-control is the greatest asset to both; without it, the opposition has the upper hand. It is self-discipline that gives Taekwondo its great potential for outreach.
The self-control required to master the body and mind is unattainable without mastery of the spirit. From a Christian perspective, we have two natures within us that wage war. Our flesh would have us far from a righteous body and mind, while our spirit would have us a champion of both. Our body wants only what feels good, our mind tells us that sometimes we need what does not feel good, and our spirit allows us to choose the right path. A weak spirit will build mental barriers that the body and mind cannot break through, barriers that the spirit alone can shatter if only we would recondition it.
In addition to prayer and study of GodĀs Word, those who train under USCDKA principles, practice Poomse to strengthen their self-control and spirit. The Poomse train the spirit by demonstrating a need to perfect movements through repetition, a task that can only be completed with a strong spirit of patience. The Poomse condition the body and mind, but primarily teach self-control.
Possibly but we are just just going to have to agree to disagree on the whole thing. I think it's a bad idea & you don't. Neither of us will change position.
Because Taekwondo or for that notion, the majority of Asian martial arts are not religious backed & have no need for that to be interjected.
If you want to teach TKD, teach it. If you want to teach a Bible study, teach it. But IMO, keep them separate like the church & state.
I guess bad idea vs. good idea is the part that I don't subscribe to. The question of whether it is being done 'at the church' or on church property has not been explicitly answered, but I gather that that is the case.
If that is indeed the case, then you are looking at the equivalent of the church volleyball team. So long as it remains a group of people who are interested in a martial art and who are all Christian, then it is good for them, and probably of no interest to anyone else.
Most physical activities done in a church environment are simply opened and closed with a prayer, be they basketball, volleyball, or in this case, a martial art. I get together with a group of Christian fencers and aside from the opening with a prayer asking God to bless our activity and a closing prayer thanking God for the time together and for the quality activity, you'd never know that it was a "Christian" group.
I cannot speak for all churches, but in my own personal experience, most church activities that are not religious in nature (athletics being a good example) are not turned into Bible studies. Generally, Christians already have a group for that which is dedicated to doing just that. Even if the martial arts group is the exact same group of people, they are still showing up for a physical activity and use that time accordingly. When they are in their study group, they likewise don't turn it into a basketball game or a karate practice.
Daniel
OP
OP
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Actually I stated up front I'm generally against mixing ma and religion. But I am open to participating since I have been asked for my help. You stated this was for discussion's sake, so have at it. I'm genuinely interested in why you seem to have such a strident tone for a topic that is merely an intellectual exercise for you.
I disagree. There are strong influences from Zen Buddhism in many karate styles. Now whether one thinks Zen is a religion or not can be up to discussion, but you're too dogmatic on this opinion of yours. Suffice to say that many including some on this very thread would differ with your contention.
OK. Care to explain why YOU think this is necessary? It might make for interesting reading and would likely display what your understanding of what taekwondo is exactly.
I'm still curious why you think mixing Christian ideals into taekwondo makes it not taekwondo. Or have you dropped that position?
Just an aside, as this is really a separate issue from Dancing's specific question about helping out his friend, I had a thought.
Aikido definitely has a religious basis to it (Omoto Kyo), and Ueshiba created a new art (Aikido) rather than Omoto Kyo-ing Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu.
Rather than Christian taekwondo, would it not be more appropriate to create an art that may be technically based on taekwondo, but geared towards what a Christian martial arts practitioner should be or should learn?
No right or wrong answer, and I can start a separate topic if people think that it is worth discussing.
Daniel
Aikido definitely has a religious basis to it (Omoto Kyo), and Ueshiba created a new art (Aikido) rather than Omoto Kyo-ing Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu.
Rather than Christian taekwondo, would it not be more appropriate to create an art that may be technically based on taekwondo, but geared towards what a Christian martial arts practitioner should be or should learn?
No right or wrong answer, and I can start a separate topic if people think that it is worth discussing.
Daniel
OP
OP
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Of course. Free training area and the church is a logical gathering place for a church ministry.
I am sure there will be some mental/spiritual dimensions to the training. I discovered last night that the General Choi forms will be used. Just as a loose example off the top of my head, it's not too hard to relate the first hyung, Chon-Ji, to a Scripture based lesson. Chon-Ji means "Heaven and Earth". I've been told that the pattern can symbolize Um and Yang and the dualism of the movements such as block and counter. The translation seems obvious - one could possibly tell a homily about hardness and softness and turning the other cheek to an offense. And that's just one interpretation.
OP
OP
dancingalone
Grandmaster
That's an interesting thought. What should a Christian martial artist NOT learn? Striking which is surely designed to inflict damage on another? Throws which can be even more destructive than a kick or punch?
As you know, Daniel, aikido was created with the philosophy that one should avoid hurting one's attacker as much as possible, to only defend oneself to the extent that is needed. For this reason, many (most) aikido schools have no real striking practice at all, even though atemi is an assumed part of the techniques. It makes no sense, but that's the path we find ourselves at today.
I myself find no need to limit any techniques in a Christian setting. The faith is about doing right and being good to one another - it doesn't necessarily mean you adopt pacifism to the point of being a victim. It doesn't mean you have to limit the effectiveness of your self-defense training when sincerely called to use in aid of yourself or others.
So no need to create a "new" system at all IMO. You can train TKD effectively as a Christian. Now whether we want to actually incorporate Christian studies during our physical practice of TKD is another question, which this thread is in part addressing.
Well if you stated up front but yet you're participating in the exercise, isn't that kinda dishonest
You won't find a karate-do style coming out of a Japanese Buddhist temple with the precepts of Daruma taishi. The Founders of the various styles of karate may have been Buddhists & taken some of their personal views in the styling of their method, but there's nothing overtly Buddhist about or espoused karate.
My understanding of TKD was 10+ years learning & teaching it prior to & then away from the sportification of it. My understanding came from a line that left prior to General Choi's "unification/nationalization" of it.
Because the two don't mix.
