Children + Kata = Bad Idea

[Makalakumu]

After much thinking on the subject, countless interviews with children, and and after experimenting with some new ideas, I've come to the conclusion that children really don't get very much from practicing kata. Sure, many of them learn how to do the steps and do them well, but it like a dance to them. They really don't understand the applications or what purpose kata serve. There are some exceptions, for example, I had one student who loved kata, understood how to break them down and could apply the techniques. He was older and very mature for his age, more mature then most teenagers in fact. The bulk of the kids that I've taught and that I've interviewed don't get kata and I'm thinking that they probably aren't ready for them developmentally.

That said, about a year ago, I stopped teaching children kata. I taught them developmentally appropriate applications instead and I showed them how the principles in the kata applied in these applications. In fact, last year, I had a semester where I taught a group of young teenagers one kata for four months. I drilled applications for three and a half of those months and then taught the kata for the last two weeks. The results blew their minds. Kids who have been in karate before suddenly got it and every single kid there understood what that exercise was really meant to do.

From that experience, I think it's safe to draw the following conclusion. Kids don't need to practice the one person kata. It works better to teach them the applications and introduce the kata when they are closer to adulthood. Does anyone else have any experience with this? What do you think? Off base, right on, or missing something?

 

[Haakon]

I think your theory isn't limited to children. In my experience most adults don't understand the applications in patterns either, not beyond the grossly obvious "the middle inside block, blocks a middle punch".

When I started training again after many years off I noticed we didn't do patterns very often, nothing like the multiple daily repetition I did in tae kwon do in the 80's and asked my instructor about it. He said he now focus more on principals than technique because, like you saw, after getting the principals people understand the applications better and he saw a dramatic improvement in the quality of Hapkido the higher ranking students were doing.

It makes sense to me, but mentally I'm still somewhat stuck on trying to do the techniques "perfectly" and not just getting the principals down, one more thing I've got to work on.

 

[girlbug2]

You could be onto something there. Definitely as children mature their understanding of abstract concepts also matures. Now that you mention it, it seems so obvious!

 

[Victor Smith]

Hmmmm, I've only been teaching youth continuously for over 30 years and kata is the major vehicle of our training. There is no difference in course content for youth or adults, I just teach karate.

Of course many of the seniors of past generations taught nothing but kata.

For all my students application studies don't seriously begin until after sho-dan (for young people that takes 7 to 9 years). They're shown continuously from their first night that technique has applications, but not as serious study until they have developed a movement potential and some belief in their technique that they have something to work from.

Karate is the study of the possible, the not possible and the impossible.

Unfortunately too many instructors want instant understanding that does not occur, and IMO adjusting the art to just address the possible precludes developing the not possible into the possible.

Clearly from my point of view if there's no kata there's no karate. There may be something else but not karate.

 

[dancingalone]

I'm in both camps on this. I think what maunakumu says has a lot of truth to it, but I am with Victor on kata = karate.

Regardless of which direction we ultimately fall, I still think most (not all) of us teach a sanitized version of martial arts to children anyway if we have underage students. Arguably, this is not traditional karate anyway, so what does it matter which form of pedagogy we choose?

 

[Makalakumu]

I think you mistake my thesis. I'm not saying that we shouldn't teach kata, only that it should be taught later. Children have a hard time understanding what is going on with the kata and I've had more success with teaching the two person bunkai first. I love the kata and karate. I'm only looking to make my practice and my teaching better.

Victor, how well do your young students the bunkai while just practicing kata for so long? My students have benefited from a lot of two person drilling of kata bunkai and it seems as if you've taken the opposite view.

 

[dancingalone]

I think you mistake my thesis. I'm not saying that we shouldn't teach kata, only that it should be taught later.

My bad if this was directed to me, maunakumu. I took this sentence literally. "I stopped teaching children kata."

For Victor, I'd be curious what you teach your pre-shodan students. Is it just a matter of drilling basics and solo kata exclusively? How long on average does it take for you to promote a student to shodan?

 

[Makalakumu]

My bad if this was directed to me, maunakumu. I took this sentence literally. "I stopped teaching children kata."

Later I say that I think it's more appropriate to teach them kata when they are closer to adulthood. I would say that children under ten probably don't have the developmental capacity to understand what the kata really mean. I think we can develop their understanding by showing them and drilling them on two person applications from the kata, but making the connection to something so abstract is a stretch.

I believe that Itosu sensei knew this. He completely reorganized the system for children and this curriculum eventually bled its way into most other karate systems. Other ideas, like the one I proposed, probably call back to an earlier age before karateka were mass produced.

 

[WC_lun]

Kata or form work is just a tool. For us it is a tool to help sink in concepts of the system, teach precision, and teach them body awareness. Like any tool, there are times when it is the best thing for a given situation and there are times when another tool will work better. I think the problem arises when form is the main tool and most of the focus is on it alone. That creates students that do not have the experience outside of form work to actually apply the techniques that are within the form.

I guess I'm saying form work is important, but not any more important than many other tools we use to teach martiala arts to students.

 

[Touch Of Death]

After much thinking on the subject, countless interviews with children, and and after experimenting with some new ideas, I've come to the conclusion that children really don't get very much from practicing kata. Sure, many of them learn how to do the steps and do them well, but it like a dance to them. They really don't understand the applications or what purpose kata serve. There are some exceptions, for example, I had one student who loved kata, understood how to break them down and could apply the techniques. He was older and very mature for his age, more mature then most teenagers in fact. The bulk of the kids that I've taught and that I've interviewed don't get kata and I'm thinking that they probably aren't ready for them developmentally.

That said, about a year ago, I stopped teaching children kata. I taught them developmentally appropriate applications instead and I showed them how the principles in the kata applied in these applications. In fact, last year, I had a semester where I taught a group of young teenagers one kata for four months. I drilled applications for three and a half of those months and then taught the kata for the last two weeks. The results blew their minds. Kids who have been in karate before suddenly got it and every single kid there understood what that exercise was really meant to do.

From that experience, I think it's safe to draw the following conclusion. Kids don't need to practice the one person kata. It works better to teach them the applications and introduce the kata when they are closer to adulthood. Does anyone else have any experience with this? What do you think? Off base, right on, or missing something?

Oh my word!
Sean

 

[Makalakumu]

The essence is how you visualize what a kata can be. Children learn to visualize via their experience. Therefore, a child need the hands-on experience with the substantive meaning of kata.

Otherwise it's just a dance. It might be a dance that might teach your body about some skills that might be useful in self defense, but the backwards delivery disconnects the function from the form.

 

[Stac3y]

My org doesn't teach kids kata until red belt, unless they are on the competition team, or express a particular interest.

 

[Victor Smith]

For John
“Victor, how well do your young students the bunkai while just practicing kata for so long? My students have benefited from a lot of two person drilling of kata bunkai and it seems as if you've taken the opposite view. “

The answer is very simple I do not “teach bunkai” to any of my kyu students (youth or adult). For one thing my instructor’s didn’t study “bunkai” on Okiniawa, and in that sense I’m remaining a tradionalist in someways..

Technically Mabuni Kenwa chose to use the term “bunkai” in describing how kata technique might be used against some specific attacks in his 1933 works describing “Seiunchin” and “Seipai” kata. This was a non-standard use of the Japanese term bunkai (meaning to take something apart to fix it). Eventually it took hold in some of the varied Japanese karate groups as a fixed answer what a kata technique could be used for.

Okinawa never had the term bunkai and it’s very questionable that karate was taught by way of bunkai. Kyan Chokoi for one only taught kata, not specified application studies, and this continues in several of his student’s organizations to this day. Isshinryu being a Kyan derivative system was set in similar mode.

Of course the only constant is change, and eventually the Okinawan use of ‘bunkai’ was picked up by some of the Okinawan groups too.

When I started almost no one I knew, in any system, studied kata for it’s applications.
I started working on applications before the term ‘bunkai was being discussed in the early 80’s in the karate magazines.

I continually show and have my students try to use some of the application potential of their kata, to make sure they always understand there is a reason for their practice, but they’re not formal studies.

All Kyu are working to develop the correct movement flow and technique execution of kata. In their kyu study they learn to work 15 kata and many drills but only a handful of specific defense application studies. Even study of kumite does not start until at least 2 years of training.

If you examine the record of Shiroma Shimpan (in Nakasone’s ‘Karate Do Taikan’ - 1938) and that of Mutzo’s ‘Kempo Karate’ 1933 application studies are not limited to kata technique and/or study connected with kata. That may not be a fair sample but it is available. One of the systems I studied might characterize it’s ‘bunkai’ as extended Shimpan analysis.

In similar light, living in an area about as dangerous as 1930’s Okinawa (comparatively not dangerous at all) my focus for each student from day 1 is to prepare them for year 10, 15, 20 etc. not for short term focus.

n For Dancing….
n
“For Victor, I'd be curious what you teach your pre-shodan students. Is it just a matter of drilling basics and solo kata exclusively? How long on average does it take for you to promote a student to shodan?”

For pre-shodan students it’s only a modicum of basics, letting correct kata practice be the main tool. I have a wide range of drills and two person drills that are studied as specific levels of training, and a handful of specific application responses against generic attacks that are part of the sho-dan initiation practice.

At shodan I take the first movement sequence of Isshinryu Seisan kata and they study over 50 application studies, to learn how to use that sequence against almost any attack possible. The goal is not the uses but the underlying principles behind their use. Later study builds on those principles to touch some of the thousands of application studies I’ve acquired and developed. The key, however, resides in the basic kyu studies.

The reason application study isn’t given stronger emphasis prior to dan training is because the student’s movement potential is still developing. All of my application studies are based on that underlying movement potential. In fact when adults with serious other training join our program they still have to start from the beginning to acquire the underlying principles of movement our technique usage.

How long to acquire shodan, well it depends on the student.

Youth take 7 to 9 years, Adults about 4 years. The major difference isn’t ability but that I only offer 2 youth classes a week (and 2 adult classes) and as we’re a free program most youth remain part time students as they can’t make adult choices such as to drive themselves to class.

The purpose of the youth program it to first use karate to re-inforce that they can learn by their efforts, and second as a way to enter the deeper study of karate. Most youth will only stay a year or two. Almost 100% of the youth shodan will leave for life too. All the choices involve students and parents deciding what is right for them and I agree with that.

Look our students are better served by becoming engineers instead of karate-ka. I enjoy karate, fully admit it’s benefits as being integrated into our lives, but understand our society has far more important things needed to get out of our current messes.


For John
The essence is how you visualize what a kata can be. Children learn to visualize via their experience. Therefore, a child need the hands-on experience with the substantive meaning of kata.

Otherwise it's just a dance. It might be a dance that might teach your body about some skills that might be useful in self defense, but the backwards delivery disconnects the function from the form.


Kata is not a dance because I teach a very small class and always direct my students intent in execution.

What do we really need for self defense. I suggest a small number of highly practiced skills. That kata contains thousands of answers does not mean that any of us need those answers. IMO the primary purpose of deep kata study is the movement potential it creates in the students. The further that potential is developed the more that is available in any application situation.

What I do is somewhat complex to understand, If you read through my blog at
http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/ you will get a better idea of what I mean.

My own study, as age hits and degeneration continues, never ceases. After 37 years I’ve just understood a new way to look at an esoteric section of our Chinto kata, one that ends an attackers potential to respond and how have to study where and when it may be appropriate for a students studies. It’s so esoteric it takes more than a small amout of skill but it also destroys the attackers ability to respond.

I hope this is helpful it’s what I’ve been doing for over 30 years,

 

[Grenadier]

I do agree, that children are not going to comprehend the meaning of the kata, and that they aren't going to understand that each move has a particular purpose, to which it could be applied in a self-defense manner.

However, does that make the teaching of kata at the children's level useless? I'm going to strongly say "no."

Even if someone views the children's practice of kata as something as rudimentary as simply performing progressive kihon in various directions, the children are still getting a chance to practice those fundamentals in a way that goes beyond simple stepping and performing the technique.

I strongly doubt that anyone would consider the practice of fundamental kihon as a waste of time, especially when it comes to the children. Even at the very least, the kata can give them such an opportunity to do so.



Just as a comparison, I've encouraged many a parent to let their kids watch the classic movie "Ben Hur." Of course the kids aren't going to understand the movie to the fullest extent, and that they're not going to be able to experience the amazing feelings when watching the movie, that the adults would.

However, they're still going to enjoy the movie, and come away with something, and that when they re-visit that same movie some time down the road, they'll gain an even greater appreciation for it. If anything, the experience, in the long run, would encourage them to re-visit their previous knowledge, and see what they can enjoy from it by viewing it with a more mature mind.

 

[Makalakumu]

For John
“Victor, how well do your young students the bunkai while just practicing kata for so long? My students have benefited from a lot of two person drilling of kata bunkai and it seems as if you've taken the opposite view. “

The answer is very simple I do not “teach bunkai” to any of my kyu students (youth or adult). For one thing my instructor’s didn’t study “bunkai” on Okiniawa, and in that sense I’m remaining a tradionalist in someways..

Technically Mabuni Kenwa chose to use the term “bunkai” in describing how kata technique might be used against some specific attacks in his 1933 works describing “Seiunchin” and “Seipai” kata. This was a non-standard use of the Japanese term bunkai (meaning to take something apart to fix it). Eventually it took hold in some of the varied Japanese karate groups as a fixed answer what a kata technique could be used for.

Okinawa never had the term bunkai and it’s very questionable that karate was taught by way of bunkai. Kyan Chokoi for one only taught kata, not specified application studies, and this continues in several of his student’s organizations to this day. Isshinryu being a Kyan derivative system was set in similar mode.

Of course the only constant is change, and eventually the Okinawan use of ‘bunkai’ was picked up by some of the Okinawan groups too.

When I started almost no one I knew, in any system, studied kata for it’s applications.
I started working on applications before the term ‘bunkai was being discussed in the early 80’s in the karate magazines.

I continually show and have my students try to use some of the application potential of their kata, to make sure they always understand there is a reason for their practice, but they’re not formal studies.

All Kyu are working to develop the correct movement flow and technique execution of kata. In their kyu study they learn to work 15 kata and many drills but only a handful of specific defense application studies. Even study of kumite does not start until at least 2 years of training.

If you examine the record of Shiroma Shimpan (in Nakasone’s ‘Karate Do Taikan’ - 1938) and that of Mutzo’s ‘Kempo Karate’ 1933 application studies are not limited to kata technique and/or study connected with kata. That may not be a fair sample but it is available. One of the systems I studied might characterize it’s ‘bunkai’ as extended Shimpan analysis.

In similar light, living in an area about as dangerous as 1930’s Okinawa (comparatively not dangerous at all) my focus for each student from day 1 is to prepare them for year 10, 15, 20 etc. not for short term focus.

n For Dancing….
n
“For Victor, I'd be curious what you teach your pre-shodan students. Is it just a matter of drilling basics and solo kata exclusively? How long on average does it take for you to promote a student to shodan?”

For pre-shodan students it’s only a modicum of basics, letting correct kata practice be the main tool. I have a wide range of drills and two person drills that are studied as specific levels of training, and a handful of specific application responses against generic attacks that are part of the sho-dan initiation practice.

At shodan I take the first movement sequence of Isshinryu Seisan kata and they study over 50 application studies, to learn how to use that sequence against almost any attack possible. The goal is not the uses but the underlying principles behind their use. Later study builds on those principles to touch some of the thousands of application studies I’ve acquired and developed. The key, however, resides in the basic kyu studies.

The reason application study isn’t given stronger emphasis prior to dan training is because the student’s movement potential is still developing. All of my application studies are based on that underlying movement potential. In fact when adults with serious other training join our program they still have to start from the beginning to acquire the underlying principles of movement our technique usage.

How long to acquire shodan, well it depends on the student.

Youth take 7 to 9 years, Adults about 4 years. The major difference isn’t ability but that I only offer 2 youth classes a week (and 2 adult classes) and as we’re a free program most youth remain part time students as they can’t make adult choices such as to drive themselves to class.

The purpose of the youth program it to first use karate to re-inforce that they can learn by their efforts, and second as a way to enter the deeper study of karate. Most youth will only stay a year or two. Almost 100% of the youth shodan will leave for life too. All the choices involve students and parents deciding what is right for them and I agree with that.

Look our students are better served by becoming engineers instead of karate-ka. I enjoy karate, fully admit it’s benefits as being integrated into our lives, but understand our society has far more important things needed to get out of our current messes.


For John
The essence is how you visualize what a kata can be. Children learn to visualize via their experience. Therefore, a child need the hands-on experience with the substantive meaning of kata.

Otherwise it's just a dance. It might be a dance that might teach your body about some skills that might be useful in self defense, but the backwards delivery disconnects the function from the form.


Kata is not a dance because I teach a very small class and always direct my students intent in execution.

What do we really need for self defense. I suggest a small number of highly practiced skills. That kata contains thousands of answers does not mean that any of us need those answers. IMO the primary purpose of deep kata study is the movement potential it creates in the students. The further that potential is developed the more that is available in any application situation.

What I do is somewhat complex to understand, If you read through my blog at
http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/ you will get a better idea of what I mean.

My own study, as age hits and degeneration continues, never ceases. After 37 years I’ve just understood a new way to look at an esoteric section of our Chinto kata, one that ends an attackers potential to respond and how have to study where and when it may be appropriate for a students studies. It’s so esoteric it takes more than a small amout of skill but it also destroys the attackers ability to respond.

I hope this is helpful it’s what I’ve been doing for over 30 years,

Thanks for your detailed response. It's not the first time I've heard traditional Okinawan Karateka say that they don't teach bunkai. A lot of the experts out here in Hawaii have said the same thing. A major missing piece in my understanding is the esoteric nature of the moves in the kata. That simply wasn't passed on in my lineage.

I was reading Shoshin Nagamine's book where he described Kyan Chotoku as teaching kata and breaking it down to two person drills. The way Nagamine wrote it, made it sound as if there was no separation. Kata practice took place singly and with other people. This leads me to wonder if the idea of "bunkai" was simply part of kata practice even if they didn't call it that.

 

[dancingalone]

Thanks for your detailed response. It's not the first time I've heard traditional Okinawan Karateka say that they don't teach bunkai. A lot of the experts out here in Hawaii have said the same thing. A major missing piece in my understanding is the esoteric nature of the moves in the kata. That simply wasn't passed on in my lineage.

I was reading Shoshin Nagamine's book where he described Kyan Chotoku as teaching kata and breaking it down to two person drills. The way Nagamine wrote it, made it sound as if there was no separation. Kata practice took place singly and with other people. This leads me to wonder if the idea of "bunkai" was simply part of kata practice even if they didn't call it that.

I'm often perplexed when I read these accounts too. My teacher certainly taught what people know call 'bunkai' except he call them simply drills. My teacher studied at the Jundokan in the sixties if that helps at all as a benchmark.

 

[Makalakumu]

I do agree, that children are not going to comprehend the meaning of the kata, and that they aren't going to understand that each move has a particular purpose, to which it could be applied in a self-defense manner.

However, does that make the teaching of kata at the children's level useless? I'm going to strongly say "no."

Even if someone views the children's practice of kata as something as rudimentary as simply performing progressive kihon in various directions, the children are still getting a chance to practice those fundamentals in a way that goes beyond simple stepping and performing the technique.

I strongly doubt that anyone would consider the practice of fundamental kihon as a waste of time, especially when it comes to the children. Even at the very least, the kata can give them such an opportunity to do so.



Just as a comparison, I've encouraged many a parent to let their kids watch the classic movie "Ben Hur." Of course the kids aren't going to understand the movie to the fullest extent, and that they're not going to be able to experience the amazing feelings when watching the movie, that the adults would.

However, they're still going to enjoy the movie, and come away with something, and that when they re-visit that same movie some time down the road, they'll gain an even greater appreciation for it. If anything, the experience, in the long run, would encourage them to re-visit their previous knowledge, and see what they can enjoy from it by viewing it with a more mature mind.

I held this view for a long time and then started to question of the wisdom of it. Far more kids drop out of karate then stay in it and if you ask them why, they tell you that it just didn't make sense. Kata was like a dance, they didn't really get it or enjoy it, and they didn't feel like it was helpful in learning self defense. Of course I'm generalizing and paraphrasing, but that sums up the general attitude.

So, I started to experiment. I asked myself, what is this kata trying to teach? Then I started to teach that list things and I found that my students excitement level and skill level shot way over what I was doing previously. For a teacher, that's a clear sign that you've stumbled onto something.

Eventually, when I taught my students the kata, it blew their minds because they knew and had experienced the purpose. Even kids had dropped out of karate came away with a different point of view. It worked great!

 

[Carol]

What I do is somewhat complex to understand, If you read through my blog at
http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/ you will get a better idea of what I mean.

That's a wonderful blog! :asian:

 

[Gorilla]

I have a great respect for Karate! I am a parent in the TKD world. My son has been training for 9 years. I have seen many kids train and I agree that many are not mentally ready for serious study of Martial Arts. I have observed a few that have the focus and mental maturity at a young age. I think that when a Master observes this it is his responsibility to challenge that student so that they can reach their full potential. Don't let age get in the way. If you have not experienced this type of young adult don't be so fast to discount my comment they exist!

 

[Victor Smith]

There are of course differences between the Kyan derivative traditions but I highly doubt that formal 'bunkai' existed for kata technique beyond guiding beginners to the correct spatial orientiation for a movement.

Some of the traditions do work two person answers to kata, but I believe they are more the students are made to work out their own ways to use the technique, with the guiding principle they must use their current understanding. Say the instructor has 40 years of work on what a section of kata can be used for, those answers may be far above the student's current needs.

First how many answers does anyone need?

My study shows me any movement has dozens of potential answers. Having a formal bunkai or two for each movement is too kindergarden for long term study IMO. The value of kata is much more than bunkai, it allows you to use full force in technique execution that you can never use with a partner. It helps you gain skill in small movement control over the decades. It helps you shift between movements more effectively. Kata is a tool to help you work towards perfection, even if it can't be reached because you keep finding new layers of movement potential.

I have students training with me over 27 years now and their progress still continues.

And my students understand kata potential. They're shown a range of ways a punch stops different attacks the first night, and continually there on. I just don't have them focus on learning all of that until there technique and movement matches the application.

Well as I stated every student I teach is working on building to what they can do 25 years hence. It's fully up to them whether they get to that point, and I have no illusions young people will find karate of that value, unless they're the exception.

I'm not against change of course, where there is valid study. Patrick McCarthy is a great example for developing two person fighting sets working karate's range potential, and everything, even his ground fighting is fully based on kata technique.

There are many answers.

More intreguing is that of Shiroma Shimpan. His examples of how kata technique works isn't 'bunkai' but contains additional technique. For him blocks are designed to take your head off, the extra's are all kata technique too, but not in kata sequence.

Of course all that matters is they strike and correspondingly drop.

Work the possible, develop the not possible, and make the impossible irrelevant.