Losing love of Karate due to excessive Kata at training sessions. rant

[HankSchrader]

All MA systems claim that they train kick, punch, lock, throw. If lock + throw = grappling then all MA systems are 50% grappling by definition.

How deep understand does one MA system have in grappling? It's very easy to prove by sending students to SC/Judo/wrestling/BJJ tournaments and see what the outcome may be. If a style can send their students to grappling tournaments and bring back the 1st place trophy, nobody will ever argue whether that style has good grappling or not.

Of you think that you have good

- striking skill, you should test yourself in boxing, MT, kickboxing tournaments.
- grappling skill, you should test yourself in SC, Judo, wrestling, BJJ tournaments.

It's just as simple as that.

Exactly which is why Karate needs to either stop claiming to have anything to do with Grappling or actually train it.

 

[HankSchrader]

speaking of modern alive training methods they come down and train mma with us. And so can either change their methods like integrate modern boxing or test their traditional methods against mma style attacks.

what I find happens is they do a bit of both. So for example karate kicks work in a setting that includes grappling but the distances don't. So it is not that they are just throwing their stuff in the bin. They are adjusting tactics and adding extra defences.

They sound like good martial artists for Cross Training and are doing Karate a good service by moving into the modern age

 

[drop bear]

I understand what you mean about correlation, but in my opinion that school would win even more championships/trophies if you ditched Kata. That's just my opinion but I know when I want to win a grappling tournament I need to grapple more. There are solo drills for grapplers ala Jason Scully but I know if I used them as a training method in place of some actual grappling sessions I'd never win a trophy against others training in an alive manner.
I also know when Muay Thai fighters want to become champions they do as much Muay Thai as possible, and no solo drills.
I think Karatekas are scared to deviate from the norm because of Lineage and how they are taught. Those who teach or have schools would be ostracised and accused of watering down the art if they ditched Kata, when in my opinion they'd be bolstering the art and taking it forward.

karate is competition based. A school could ditch kata and then proceed to clean house in competition. So far this has not been the case.

when we discuss evidence based training which is the point of resisted training over kata. We need to look at the evidence.

so to make this point that kata is some sort of anchor we would need to find an example of that.

 

[drop bear]

They sound like good martial artists for Cross Training and are doing Karate a good service by moving into the modern age

well the point is of course. We are cross training as well by having them in.

 

[Flying Crane]

lol @ kill monsters

The traditions and histories is just a sales pitch

A martial art by definition has to be about combat, although there are other benefits to learning a martial art/sport.

For example I love freestyle wrestling because its so incredibly gruelling and you really bond and make friendships with your training partners who are pushing you hard in training. Its also incredibly fun and it teaches you to work hard. In terms of being a martial art, its 100% effective because it does what it says on the tin, it teaches people to take someone down, pin someone, throw someone, restrain someone etc who is fully resisting. Because that's all you've been doing in training. It also makes you a much more peaceful person in my opinion because it humbles you and you realise how demanding engaging a fully resisting opponent is and you have nothing to prove.

Karate on the other hand avoids a lot of these benefits because its so preoccupied with lineage and tradition and would much rather have its students punching and kicking the air in kata than actually humbling and testing themselves. All the other training, the drilling and sparring is done in spite of the time wasted in kata. Kata stops karates students achieving similar benefits as alive arts by throwing away its time on things which don't build character, friendships or combat skills nearly half as well in my opinion

Here's a piece of advice for you: don't do kata, don't train in a school that trains kata as part of their methodology, and don't worry your pretty little head about what others are up to in their own training. There. Now all of your problems are solved.

 

[Flying Crane]

But people can be Black Belts in Karate and disagree and debate over fundamental techniques? Its worrying

It's worrying to YOU, apparently. Meh, not to me or others here.
See the advice I gave previously.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

IMPROVING karate and using modern alive training methods ...

If you go to a

- Judo forum and suggest that all Judo guys should train no-gi, you won't last very long in that forum.
- Karate forum and suggest that all Karate guys should train no-kata, you won't last very long in that forum either.

Some people don't mind to "evolve" but the majority people do.

 

[HankSchrader]

It's worrying to YOU, apparently. Meh, not to me or others here.
See the advice I gave previously.

Jesus, no wonder there are so many mcdojos

 

[HankSchrader]

If you go to a

- Judo forum and suggest that all Judo guys should train no-gi, you won't last very long in that forum.
- Karate forum and suggest that all Karate guys should train no-kata, you won't last very long in that forum either.

Some people don't mind to "evolve" but the majority people do.

Actually its quite sensible to cross train no gi with judo, if you want to get good at pick ups, te geruma, kata garuma plenty of Judokas have cross trained in wrestling or no gi. Particularly with the old IJF rules. Very poor examples as people in those arts care about getting good through decent training methods

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Actually its quite sensible to cross train no gi with judo, if you want to get good at pick ups, te geruma, kata garuma plenty of Judokas have cross trained in wrestling or no gi. Particularly with the old IJF rules. Very poor examples as people in those arts care about getting good through decent training methods

It takes time for a Judo teacher to switch to no-gi. It also takes time for a Karate instructor to switch to no-kata. That transition can be painful. Not everybody want to go through it.

When you switch to

- no-gi, you have to find all the valid contact points for "pulling".
- no-kata, you have to find enough partner drill training to replace Kata training.

Not everybody want to go outside of their comfort zone.

 

[drop bear]

If you go to a

- Judo forum and suggest that all Judo guys should train no-gi, you won't last very long in that forum.
- Karate forum and suggest that all Karate guys should train no-kata, you won't last very long in that forum either.

Some people don't mind to "evolve" but the majority people do.

He is still allowed to hold that position without it being some sort of shot at all karate. There is such a Thing as too much group think.

no gi judo would be cool.

 

[TimoS]

then why is everyones Bunkai different?

Simple: in most cases the bunkai was forgotten/never learned for various reasons, maybe even decades ago and now many people are "reverse engineering" the bunkai, which causing a lot of variation. Also, the whole word is somewhat of a can of worms. To me, it means the formal, "rigid" application, that is the basis of the free form applications we also practice. To others, the word is equal with any application they do.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don't see anything in the word bunkai that makes me think there's only one correct bunkai. Forms teach techniques. They also teach the principles behind those techniques. The bunkai is derived from the principles. And the principles are applicable to many scenarios, leading to different people coming up with different specific applications.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[Cirdan]

I think Karatekas are scared to deviate from the norm because of Lineage and how they are taught. Those who teach or have schools would be ostracised and accused of watering down the art if they ditched Kata, when in my opinion they'd be bolstering the art and taking it forward.

Then if we are scared to deivate why is the art so fragmented with dozens of styles and thousands of Dojos and organizations with their own take on Karate?
I teach and to me kata is very much the core of the art, without kata it is not really Karate anymore. I also train and am starting to teach another similar art (Ju Jitsu Norway) that does not use kata instead favoring pair work. This has its benefits too, but the students there sure could use some kata training to improve their stances and basic technique to mention just two. Then again you can`t have it all. I love Wado Karate for the crisp technique and beautiful use of power, I love Ju Jitsu for the practicality and physicality.

Bottom line if you hate kata then don`t do Karate. Kickboxing maybe?

 

[HankSchrader]

Then if we are scared to deivate why is the art so fragmented with dozens of styles and thousands of Dojos and organizations with their own take on Karate?
I teach and to me kata is very much the core of the art, without kata it is not really Karate anymore. I also train and am starting to teach another similar art (Ju Jitsu Norway) that does not use kata instead favoring pair work. This has its benefits too, but the students there sure could use some kata training to improve their stances and basic technique to mention just two. Then again you can`t have it all. I love Wado Karate for the crisp technique and beautiful use of power, I love Ju Jitsu for the practicality and physicality.

Bottom line if you hate kata then don`t do Karate. Kickboxing maybe?

yet all those styles do kata.

 

[Cirdan]

yet all those styles do kata.

Yet what? Not sure what you are getting at there.

 

[HankSchrader]

It takes time for a Judo teacher to switch to no-gi. It also takes time for a Karate instructor to switch to no-kata. That transition can be painful. Not everybody want to go through it.

When you switch to

- no-gi, you have to find all the valid contact points for "pulling".
- no-kata, you have to find enough partner drill training to replace Kata training.

Not everybody want to go outside of their comfort zone.

why would it take time in Judo in to switch to no-gi? Using underhooks/overhooks etc is already in Judo. They'd just need to learn to wrestle a bit but Its grappling all the same. It provides benefits to their pick up game etc. BJJ practitioners switch from gi to no gi all the time. Just like Sambo players will go no jacket and wrestle too.
Its not painful lol, there's nothing painful about it. Its just having fun and getting better.
Yes in no-kata you'd have to train in an alive, effective manner with partners not with Kata, wouldn't that be lovely.

 

[HankSchrader]

Yet what? Not sure what you are getting at there.

That lineage and tradition is prevalent in all styles of Karate and it hinders its growth and progressiveness. Making it far less effective and beneficial than a fully alive martial art, when it could be if people left the archaic methods behind.

Have you ever studied a fully alive martial art? (one without compliant partner drills, full contact sparring and no kata)

 

[Cirdan]

That lineage and tradition is prevalent in all styles of Karate and it hinders its growth and progressiveness. Making it far less effective and beneficial than a fully alive martial art, when it could be if people left the archaic methods behind.

Refer to my earlier post about training in styles both with and without kata.

Have you ever studied a fully alive martial art? (one without compliant partner drills, full contact sparring and no kata)

I am alive not dead so my training in several arts have definitely been so too.

No compliant drills at all? Nope, can`t say I have seen that in any art including Wado Karate, Kyokushin, Ju Jitsu, Kobudo, Iaido, Aikido, Kali Sikaran, Goshindo, Nihon Goshin Ryu, BJJ, Judo, Tai Chi, Kickboxing, Taekwondo or MMA for that matter. If there is an art without it I am pretty sure it must be complete horse manure, respectfully. Backyard Redneck Fu maybe?

 

[Buka]

That lineage and tradition is prevalent in all styles of Karate and it hinders its growth and progressiveness. Making it far less effective and beneficial than a fully alive martial art, when it could be if people left the archaic methods behind.

Have you ever studied a fully alive martial art? (one without compliant partner drills, full contact sparring and no kata)

I'm not sure what a compliant partner drill is. But then, I had never heard the term "bunkai" until I joined our forum several years ago, so I'm used to not knowing things.I train American Karate. It's in my blood. Our lineage and traditions only go back six decades. With all due respect, Hank, how the hell would you know what kind of lineage and traditions I and my students have. And why would you care?

We don't have Kata as part of our system, but some of my students have put some together and maybe they'll put it in. They're big boys who've taught for over thirty years and if they want it for their students, that's fine with me.
BUT, I shadowbox at times, which to me is the same as kata. I'm getting the feeling you don't much like shadowboxing, which is also fine with me, but I both love it and need it.

I'm not sure what a fully alive Martial Art is. (there's more of that personal confusion of mine) Martial Arts sure seem alive to me. Especially when I get whopped upside the head. Or crawl out of bed because my old bones are tired from training the night before.