Cheun Sau

[wckf92]

And, man, if you are going to dismiss this basic technique in Chi Sau as irrelevant to real fighting, then you should just throw Chi Sau out completely.

Ok, wasn't going to chime in on this...but if I understand this chuen sao in chi sao thingy correctly...to my understanding, this 'basic technique' (KPM' s term) would be a mistake. However, perhaps KPM could post a video to further clarify (?)

 

[KPM]

Ok, wasn't going to chime in on this...but if I understand this chuen sao in chi sao thingy correctly...to my understanding, this 'basic technique' (KPM' s term) would be a mistake. However, perhaps KPM could post a video to further clarify (?)

I think it's pretty much "Wing Chun 101."

The very first part here, that Sifu Spain is countering:

Also explained below:

And again....those are just one simple example of this transition or "hand switch" that the Cheun Sau teaches. And this isn't so different than what Phil is doing in the very first video, or what Phil shows in the other videos when he is working defensively within Chi Sau.

 

[dudewingchun]

Shortbridge and Dan have it right. It's all about range and timing. You aren't doing this by standing and waiting for a punch just so you can Cheun Sau around it. Did you miss the part where Phil states "I already have contact with his arm."?? And, man, if you are going to dismiss this basic technique in Chi Sau as irrelevant to real fighting, then you should just throw Chi Sau out completely.

Wel how did he get to the position of already being in contact with his arm? unless its grapplings that dude punched him and he " caught it". It doesnt look like it was in grappling range and in that first video that guy is just holding his arm out straight for him, then Phil says "if he punches" then does the demo. He catches it, says feels the vibration and switch over hands. Am I missing something? It looks like he was waiting for the right time to " cheun sao" and if it's too strong the aim is to transition over.

I'm just saying against a strong punch that's fast, trying to catch it then feeling the energy while you're in contact and then switching over hands won't work. Maybe if you are in the clinch/close range already and you can feel it.

 

[anerlich]

I see the threading arm as more of an upward strike than a movement to move the arm from inside to the outside. You use a bil or pak to stop the strike from hitting you then throw a separate bil or side palm strike under it and upward along the centreline. You may knock the arm out of the way and hit the guy in the head with the side palm if his structure is weak, or under the armpit / brachial plexus with the forearm if not. If his structure is strong and his arm gets in the way the threading arm lifts his elbow instead, creating an opening to the floating rib for a strike from the other hand. It works in three dimensions, not just one.

You are not thinking about pushing the arm across, but striking along the centre and slightly upwards. Unrelenting offensive forward pressure, not multiple defensive movements, not trying to manipulate the punch from one side to the other, though that still might happen.

I'm just saying against a strong punch that's fast, trying to catch it then feeling the energy while you're in contact and then switching over hands won't work.

I'm just saying that against a strong punch that's fast and retracted quickly, any attempt to catch it using wing chun hands won't work. As for "feeling the energy", the punch IMO can move faster than the sensation. Try to seek a bridge on a boxer with a quick jab. You see some limitations with some Wing Chun hands, I see a lot more limitations with a lot more hands than you.

 

[LFJ]

I'm just saying against a strong punch that's fast, trying to catch it then feeling the energy while you're in contact and then switching over hands won't work.

Many such ideas are born from playing around in chi-sau and assuming you can get the same things to work in a fist fight.

Many things can be done when you've entered mutual contact in an artificial setup like chi-sau, but will not work against someone who doesn't want you to touch their arms while they hit you.

Same goes for the idea of "I will throw out a biu-sau (taan-sau, etc.), then it may turn into a punch if the way is free".

This requires altered intention and hand shape after having already launched the hand defensively, which will likely result in a stutter fart and very weak punch.

An effective punch needs to have intent to hit from go.

Better, I think, to throw a real punch that can accomplish what biu-sau does while being a full strike.

 

[wckf92]

I think it's pretty much "Wing Chun 101."

The very first part here, that Sifu Spain is countering:

Also explained below:

And again....those are just one simple example of this transition or "hand switch" that the Cheun Sau teaches. And this isn't so different than what Phil is doing in the very first video, or what Phil shows in the other videos when he is working defensively within Chi Sau.

Thanks for posting.
Yup, that is what I thought you were talking about.

 

[KPM]

Wel how did he get to the position of already being in contact with his arm? unless its grapplings that dude punched him and he " caught it".

---Of course! How does any other Wing Chun "block" work? You make contact in some way. Maybe the guy threw a punch and you intercepted it. Maybe you are in grappling or Chi Sau range and made contact that way.

It looks like he was waiting for the right time to " cheun sao" and if it's too strong the aim is to transition over.

---Do you "wait for" the right time to Bong Sau? Or Pak Sau? Or Tan Sau? This is no different! And its a demo! So of course he set it up so he could show the technique.


I'm just saying against a strong punch that's fast, trying to catch it then feeling the energy while you're in contact and then switching over hands won't work.

---As Andrew pointed out, MOST of your Wing Chun "blocks" aren't going to work against a strong fast punch that is retracted quickly.....except maybe Pak Sau. Bong/Lop transitions aren't going to work under those conditions either! But in a real exchange, not everyone is a skilled boxer. And even if they where, that skilled boxer isn't going to be able to cook off fast punches the whole time. Cheun Sau, like any other Wing Chun defensive technique, is only done when the opportunity presents itself.

 

[LFJ]

How does any other Wing Chun "block" work? You make contact in some way. Maybe the guy threw a punch and you intercepted it.

With a biu-sau that paralyzes his arm like an electric shock and makes it stick to your arm, so you have time to biu again to the other side of the same arm.

---As Andrew pointed out, MOST of your Wing Chun "blocks" aren't going to work against a strong fast punch that is retracted quickly.....except maybe Pak Sau. Bong/Lop transitions aren't going to work under those conditions either! But in a real exchange, not everyone is a skilled boxer. And even if they where, that skilled boxer isn't going to be able to cook off fast punches the whole time.

So, you're saying Wing Chun fails against trained punches.
It's only good for slow punches that don't get retracted quickly.

Good to know for anyone considering this method.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^^ Go away Troll. Everything you post is argumentative.

 

[geezer]

I'm glad to see that LFJ is exhibiting a sense of humor! Now as far as moving from the inside to the outside with either this chuen sau/ "threading hand", or bong-lap-sau, I think it makes a lot more sense closer in when you are responding to strong pressure.

Check out the difference between "neutral" or chi-sau range and close, clinch range in the Alan Orr clip below from about 4:30 to 5:45. BTW I never trained Alan's stuff personally. I just picked Alan's clip because he trains his WC in an MMA/boxing context more than most.

BTW Keith, do you still train Alan's material, or are you "all in" with TWC now?

 

[anerlich]

Better, I think, to throw a real punch that can accomplish what biu-sau does while being a full strike.

I know what you mean, but I quite like side palms myself. To my mind, bil sau and side palm are pretty much the same thing. Palm strikes tend to be a lot more forgiving on the hands than punches, plus the elbow position/energy is different. Just my take on it.

 

[anerlich]

So, you're saying Wing Chun fails against trained punches.
It's only good for slow punches that don't get retracted quickly.

More accurate to say that "chasing hands" fails under such conditions.

The intention should be more constant attack up the centre with forward pressure. If you meet an obstacle, remove the obstacle and keep up the constant attack up the centre with forward pressure.

If the opponent doesn't want to engage, then you don't need to engage him. If he's trying to draw a response, don't take the bait.

 

[dudewingchun]

Wel how did he get to the position of already being in contact with his arm? unless its grapplings that dude punched him and he " caught it".

---Of course! How does any other Wing Chun "block" work? You make contact in some way. Maybe the guy threw a punch and you intercepted it. Maybe you are in grappling or Chi Sau range and made contact that way.

It looks like he was waiting for the right time to " cheun sao" and if it's too strong the aim is to transition over.

---Do you "wait for" the right time to Bong Sau? Or Pak Sau? Or Tan Sau? This is no different! And its a demo! So of course he set it up so he could show the technique.


I'm just saying against a strong punch that's fast, trying to catch it then feeling the energy while you're in contact and then switching over hands won't work.

---As Andrew pointed out, MOST of your Wing Chun "blocks" aren't going to work against a strong fast punch that is retracted quickly.....except maybe Pak Sau. Bong/Lop transitions aren't going to work under those conditions either! But in a real exchange, not everyone is a skilled boxer. And even if they where, that skilled boxer isn't going to be able to cook off fast punches the whole time. Cheun Sau, like any other Wing Chun defensive technique, is only done when the opportunity presents itself.

I only mentioned that because you said they aren't just going to be waiting for the punch to come.

 

[LFJ]

To my mind, bil sau and side palm are pretty much the same thing. Palm strikes tend to be a lot more forgiving on the hands than punches, plus the elbow position/energy is different. Just my take on it.

What do you mean by side palm?

For me, elbow can function the same whether striking with fist or palm.

The only difference is elbow actions can form either horizontal or vertical palms.

More accurate to say that "chasing hands" fails under such conditions.

The intention should be more constant attack up the centre with forward pressure. If you meet an obstacle, remove the obstacle and keep up the constant attack up the centre with forward pressure.

If the opponent doesn't want to engage, then you don't need to engage him. If he's trying to draw a response, don't take the bait.

I would agree with everything but "up the centre".

Doesn't seem TWC strategy agrees with that either?

 

[JPinAZ]

Interesting discussion!

Here is another example:

You'll notice this time that it looks like Phil is just doing a Lop Sau. This is because the Cheun Sau is a transition move. If you Cheun and then extend the arm, it becomes a Biu. If you Cheun and keep it tight it can become a Lop or a Fook. Cheun means "threading"....you are threading one arm past the other to change the line or gain control of the opponent's arm.

I think this is why it is considered a separate technique in TWC and given its own name. It isn't specifically a Biu Sau, as you see in this example. It isn't specifically a Lop Sau either. It is the hand switch or transition that changes the line.

We do something sorta similar to this, but we call it Tiu Sau because of the lifting/rising motion. IMO, this is different than the other examples you provided of TWC 'cheun sau' that are more of a spearing fwd while lifting biu sau-type shape.

I think it's pretty much "Wing Chun 101."

The very first part here, that Sifu Spain is countering:

IMO, what the girl is doing as the initial 'cheun' won't work in this application if Sifu Spain has proper fwd energy & position with the bong hand (which are 2 things I've heard Sifu Redmond talk about repeatedly as being a major focus during TWC chi sau rolling). The only time I do see this as working at higher percentage is if Sifu Spain's bong violated this concept by crossing over center.

 

[JPinAZ]

The VT system I train also prefers outside, but we must know how to fight on the inside.
Often, the opportunity to take the outside line with a direct attack will present itself.

Unless a mistake like crossing oneself has been made (e.g. right inside right) requiring immediate switch, there is no reason to jump from defensive action on the inside to another defensive action on the outside, like biu biu against the same arm, and even when switching it will preferably be with an attacking action.

It's just that in your example, right biu to the inside of the opponent's left punch, from my perspective you are not in a particularly poor position that needs escaping from. In may be the very next punch that takes you to the outside line.Worrying about this gate or that gate and how to escape unnecessarily from here to there with this hand or that hand technique in the heat of a fight is highly problematic.

In general, I agree with this premise!
We have a saying "WC lives & dies on the CL" . We only move offline when we have to - ie. the opponent forces us to or presents the opportunity (by crossing center for example). Otherwise, if you can maintain your reference point and receive what comes, escort what goes without giving up position, there's no reason to move - that sounds maximally efficient to me me

Ideally. I think everyone would agree. But this is the problem with setting up a whole gate theory.

Sitting with a guard on center and mentally dividing space into 2, 4, or 6 gates times inside or outside just leads to thinking and hesitation when you have nanoseconds to respond with the correct hand technique to the correct gate, even if you've trained responses to each gate a billion times.

Even if you aren't thinking about this gate or that gate when fighting, it's the fact that you're open from all sides and can't predict what the opponent is going to do.

No amount of training will make center guard + gate theory an intuitive method.

Actually, this doesn't make much sense and I completely dissagree. I don't think anyone is trying to 'think' about applying gate theory during application. Like anything else we do in WC, all of these responses can most surely be drilled into our reactions thru drilling and then sparring later on whether it's line theory, gate theory or box theory. In the end, these are just labels given to categorize different facing, range, position and leverage points - within a given a strategy and tactic. If you've done the proper homework, once things touch off the responses will come out pretty much on autopilot. IMO, whether one agrees with it or not, this is true even if your objective/preference is to always try to go to the blind side.

 

[KPM]

We do something sorta similar to this, but we call it Tiu Sau because of the lifting/rising motion. IMO, this is different than the other examples you provided of TWC 'cheun sau' that are more of a spearing fwd while lifting biu sau-type shape.

---Cheun Sau means "threading hand", and conceptually anytime one hand "threads" past the other one to replace it this can be considered as a Cheun Sau. But you are right that the most common way it is seen is the "spearing forward" motion, like doing a Biu Sau.

IMO, what the girl is doing as the initial 'cheun' won't work in this application if Sifu Spain has proper fwd energy & position with the bong hand (which are 2 things I've heard Sifu Redmond talk about repeatedly as being a major focus during TWC chi sau rolling). The only time I do see this as working at higher percentage is if Sifu Spain's bong violated this concept by crossing over center.

---I agree. The best use for this in Chi Sau is when the opponent is crossing over center or even just trying to stay right on center. But lots of people tend to do that in Chi Sau! Sometimes it is because they have been taught to roll that way, and sometimes it is because they are being lazy or not paying attention. Either way, its a good technique to be familiar with!

 

[anerlich]

What do you mean by side palm?

For me, elbow can function the same whether striking with fist or palm.

The only difference is elbow actions can form either horizontal or vertical palms.

I'm talking about striking with the little finger side of the palm with the palm facing down.

I would agree with everything but "up the centre".

Doesn't seem TWC strategy agrees with that either?

Didn't realise I had to be that pedantic to make a simple point.

 

[anerlich]

"No amount of training will make center guard + gate theory an intuitive method."

Semantics, but theory and intuition to my mind are different things. The theory serves as a basis for effective technique, which is drilled until the reactions become preconscious.

 

[LFJ]

I don't think anyone is trying to 'think' about applying gate theory during application. Like anything else we do in WC, all of these responses can most surely be drilled into our reactions thru drilling and then sparring later on whether it's line theory, gate theory or box theory. In the end, these are just labels given to categorize different facing, range, position and leverage points - within a given a strategy and tactic. If you've done the proper homework, once things touch off the responses will come out pretty much on autopilot.

"No amount of training will make center guard + gate theory an intuitive method."

Semantics, but theory and intuition to my mind are different things. The theory serves as a basis for effective technique, which is drilled until the reactions become preconscious.

I did say; "Even if you aren't thinking about this gate or that gate when fighting, it's the fact that you're open from all sides and can't predict what the opponent is going to do."

No matter how automatic you train your actions to be, it is still a reactive method because you cannot predict the opponent's actions.

Opponent pulls the string on the upper right gate, and you shoot out your right biu-sau.
Opponent pulls the string on the lower left gate, and you shoot out your left gaang-sau.